White-wolf replaced with the newer version of its old redistributed self.I'm still in shock Vampire the masquerade, Wraith the oblivian, Mage the ascention, Were wolf the apocolypse, hunter the reckoning , and changeling the dreaming are no longer available for LARP or Table top.
Bygone bestiary and all. Entire storyline of rage across the world or Chicago chronicles. Put to an end over a rights issue.
I mean how lame is that?..
It was a good line up. And darn you all for not liking Xan from baldurs gate. :D
Well i dont like him either but still. Darn you all. ;)
Interesting trivia: I talked about it with my local hobby store vendor the other day, and he told me that the day he had heard about the new one coming out, he had immediately contacted his supplier and ordered all the V:tM books still in stock. Since then, almost all of those have been sold, while the new books standing in his store are still the ones he got these few years ago!
For fairness's sake, though, let it be said that the new rules system is pretty elegant. Damn, those soak rolls were bulky and obnoxious! Which is why I'm currently working on an adaptation of the WoD 2.0 ruleset for V:tM.
P.S.: I've never tried that, but are these games any fun LARPing?
-Joni
The new "revamped" kinda' gave me a taste of thigns to come when 4th ed D&D was on it's way. I didn't think tensions would run so high, but I'll be damned if ppl weren't getting pi$$ed double quick at the loss of so many clans and a trove of history and structure. I like having more bells and whistles. Mo' options, the mo' betta'. Doesn't mean I have to use them, right? But take that away, and all you can do is guess and houserule when considering themore than limited "new hotness".
But, it's a business, and businesses need to make a profit...
But, it's a business, and businesses need to make a profit...
But are they? Consider the story I related above. At least around here, V:tM seems to be selling a lot better than Requiem (and, for the record, the same holds true for Werewolf and Mage, but I can't say much to those as I didn't play them).
And I can only agree with the game writing itself. Seriously, for all its "rigid metaplot" and all, it has provided me with the most memorable roleplaying experiences ever.
But are they? Consider the story I related above. At least around here, V:tM seems to be selling a lot better than Requiem (and, for the record, the same holds true for Werewolf and Mage, but I can't say much to those as I didn't play them).
And I can only agree with the game writing itself. Seriously, for all its "rigid metaplot" and all, it has provided me with the most memorable roleplaying experiences ever.
It is about the money when you run a business.. I cant say there arent alot of teenie boppers out there buying this new stuff up like its gold and new. Having not played the old they cant tell the difference anyway.
Kinda like the hostess company nearly dropping the cherry and apple danishes for the simple rolls with no filling.. And there are countless people who dislike the normal rolls. Including a gas station attendent that i know who buys the 3 up that do get off the truck every week. So I dont get a sniff or even a lick..
But i tell you what. Its those core players who shape those riches. Look at D&D. How it came from those hardbacks with barely no illustrations and targeted those with imagination to read the text and figure the system. I found my first D&D book at a library in california and checked it out. I had my first sniff of gameplay in the 80's. It was so good that i even developed my art style moreso when the illustrations and collections came out so i could draw what i imagined.
This will never get old. They come from one point and improve on it for gameplay. Not erase the entire past time that made it possible because mistakes were made at some point. Its those older players who bring in business and talk about the games past editions which make newcomers look into the latest ones.
How many war stories in Dungeons could you come up with off the top of your head right now? I mean c'mon.
In any case the newer White-wolf presents a bit more mystery cause it presents a little less depth to the explained. But I'd much rather cut to the point and play call Cthulu..
Perhaps I'll step into a white-wolf game one of these days. Maybe its just the storyteller that failed to catch my appeal. Maybe I'm being too harsh.
Am I..?
And the rules are so much nicer in the new WoD.
Am I doing it right? :D
I agree as do most of the folks I know that the new rules are better overall in nWoD, but the fluff is awful. Vampire's bad, but since it's the flagship and I played more Mage, I'll leave it alone.
But what does Mage get? "Descendants of Atlantis"? That in itself wouldn't bother me if it wasn't the only fleshed-out theory about where they get their powers (though maybe that's changed in later books). Though by far the most disappointing to me was no Technocracy. Talk about your perfect villainous shadow government. (Even when you play a game where the PCs are members, the Technocratic Union can be the enemy, as they found out...)
It was really kind of a one-two punch for me when I saw what WW did to Mage and then, a few years later, what WotC did to Forgotten Realms.
System
, Fluff :thumbsdow .Technocracy is needed in white-wolf like weaver to wild. It's allin fun and i like options. *looks at shoulder then to pig knight* Did you just bite me?!
Wrath had to be the most depressing roleplaying game of all time. But it was also why it was fun to try. Those spectors can really pack a punch. And all your evil deeds really haunted you. And tried to get you killed.
My specialization was Oddly enough were-wolf the apocolypse. My first character was:
Rain-Ghost (Lupus ahoun Stargazer of waxing moon) a good ninja type. Mysterious to the max. Most memorable game ive ever playin in.. We faced the first Ronin in a race against time to rescue a little Kinfolk girl who was recently fortold to unlock insight into the end of the world. There where 13 players and 2 storytellors at the game store we palyed in.
Funny thing is even though my character lost it sleft eye and tried to commit honorable suicide for his failure and npc's jumped him alongside his mentor and beat him unconious to save him. It was fun and one hell of a story.
Only 3 characters survived. The game lasted 5 months.
Then i entered my first larp. At a university i was attending. A great game. I became a member of the camarilla fan club. So i could play anywhere.
Later i ran official games and my enjoyment and collection of WoD books blossomed..
I sold them all later. With little regret cause i can recall every darn perk clan kinfolk, weapon dmg, sphere, gift, discipline, house, and important figure in WoD.. dang near even now. how a character sheet is suposed to look.. its freebee ponts supernatural and mortal primary secondary and such atributes abilities backgrounds and even elder generation rules for Vampire.. along with how many flaws you need which depends on your generation.. oh yes. Fun indeed.
Clever crossings of kinfolk/mage rules can be devistating in the most experiencedhands..
Well enough rant. shut my yap.
Can you Say Baba yaga and the Zmi?
all useless general game knowledge since no one plays anymore. Pfft..Wraith had to be the most depressing roleplaying game of all time. But it was also why it was fun to try.
I concur.
all useless general game knowledge since no one plays anymore. Pfft..
Sounds pretty much exactly like what I'm going through with D&D 3e now (so much expertise, all of it useless). Though I was no slouch in my WoD-knowledge either. Damn whipper-snappers! Back in my day you could modify # of successes and target difficulty on those d10's!
Although I was a lil' interested in Mage.
*Bites Roll 2d6* Nom nom nom, I'm drinking your blood.
But are they? Consider the story I related above. At least around here, V:tM seems to be selling a lot better than Requiem (and, for the record, the same holds true for Werewolf and Mage, but I can't say much to those as I didn't play them).
I think you've misunderstood me prior as I'm already in 100% agreement. The "business", that is, being the impetus for a new edition. ie)It's way easier to justify/manipulate "hey kids, spend mo' $ now!" w/ a whole new series of books, particularly, you know, the base rules...then come the add-ons than to keep expanding the previous edition.
It's just, this new one doesn't seem to have been planned out so well as reflected in sales, buzz in shops/the net/conventions, etc.
Roll_2D6: Its those core players who shape those riches.
Well said.
Word of mouth from vet gamers goes a long way...particularly when you're a young kid and looking @ $30+/book...and you need 3 (core) just to start. That's a lot of money for them and friendly advice goes a long way.
I can't remember how many times at Gencon '05, '06, and '08 where I'd see some guy giving another one the hard sell, eviscerating something else, or just idle chit chat about "this" and "that" that carried weight when money was, or could've changed hands.
Hell, how do you think I recruited most of my friends to game (same w/ me)? We're talking about 6th grade and up...and those guys/girls spent money too. Circle of life. A good game can sell itself as serious gamers tend to be better read, more critical, and analytic of their drug of choice. It's not like you're turning on your best friend to your favorite band. The commitment/time/$ is considerable, hence, serious gamers not screwing around.
Look at D&D. How it came from those hardbacks with barely no illustrations and targeted those with imagination to read the text and figure the system...It was so good that i even developed my art style moreso when the illustrations and collections came out so i could draw what i imagined.
Good example. Funny you should mention that too...
My BA & BFA ('99), Fine Art being one of them, was influenced in no small part by gaming since I was a kid in '83. Granted, most of the stuff I've sold over the years isn't all fantasy, but I'd be lying if I said none of it was. But, in the idealism of my youth, man, this damn game...inspiration overflow.
"Hook 'em while they're young." -George Carlin ;)
Warweaver: I agree as do most of the folks I know that the new rules are better overall in nWoD, but the fluff is awful.
Like-minded here too for the most part.
I can't say w/ any credibility as I've yet to play the new WoD rules (read the Hell out of it though), but I hear good things...about the mechanics. For one, 1 book to kick start 5 platforms? Good design thinking; helps to sell the others (business-> $). Of course though, you're assumption is correct in the heart of it. Less clans & choices, simplified, odds & ends don't add up, lack of mystery & "drive".
Like a golem, raw materials are sound, tough as nails, no breath of life though...
Vampire's bad, but since it's the flagship and I played more Mage, I'll leave it alone.
No, speak your mind. No one is gonna' give you any static over an opinion.
I'm curious anyway as I was a huge 3rd ed guy and never got my feet wet w/ 4th. I liked the Sabbat, all this history, Biblical premise. Some really compelling writing there. Just wondering where it all went.
It was really kind of a one-two punch for me when I saw what WW did to Mage and then, a few years later, what WotC did to Forgotten Realms.
Oh, man, that is a really good comparison. Few friends are big time Mage fans, and they were very unhappy to be around "after". Having never played, I just sympathized, "There there, I'll run some D&D for us, everything's gonna' be alright." It wasn't. They felt betrayed and judging by a lot of those Friday morning crowds in the exhibit hall (Gencon '06), man, that scene got ugly fast around the White Wolf booth. I just avoided it thinking, when I play VtM again, I'll just stick w/ my 3rd ed stacks.
Then, the follow-up attack. He Who is Most Unclean came like a theif in the night... the **** and pillage of Faerun for 4th ed just broke my heart. My fav setting and they just steamroll through so much previous hard work from so many brilliant thinkers like it's nothing. Irreverent, disrespectful, hasty...greedy.
Personally, the only thing I would have liked would have been more clans or whatnot. I don't mind more options.
But the weird metaplot? Eh. We played using the Chicago setting book, and I was having a blast (real life messed up schedules too much for the ST, and later on myself as well). I loved the feel of the setting. I don't mind not being tied into some vast machination or some such.
But again, I never actually played the old stuff, so take with a bag of salt. ;)
Some specific things, I like:
-Mortal: It is quite nice having a basic mortals game as the base of the whole world and everything branching off from there, both fluff and crunch wise. YAY! not having to waste half a book rewriting the rules.
-Vampire: It is no longer superheroes with fangs! The power level has decreased, your no longer globe-trotting as much, much more localized and more about personal horror, politics are more interesting with the various types of covenants.
-Werewolf: Got rid of the hippie feel (honestly need I go on). Added very cool give and take between werewolves and the spirits. The fact that you are Forsaken, and essentially out-numbered and outgunned by the Pure.
-Mage: Ehh, I am not involved in either old or new, so won't comment.
-Promethean: Well I will come out right and say it, this is my favourite RPG ever. I could write more, but that be a essay.
-Changeling: Put in tons of the real old-folklore, made fey really nasty and cruel again. Very good concept with being basically abuse survivors trying to well survive. Just overall extremely well made.
-Hunter: I love the division of different levels, you can be guys with a pickup truck and shotguns or the best technology available. It also has everything from almost zero supernatural potential to full-blown magic being used.
I haven't played any of the other games, so no comment there.
But Vampire? You've got to be kidding me. How do the covenants provide more politics than, wait... THIRTEEN clans, divided into at least two sects and lots of independents with all different motives?
Also, power level is relative: Since it was rare to fight ordinary mortals (no, inquisitors and Leopolders are not ordinary), you would mostly be fighting your own kin, which are just as powerful - no, moreso - than you. So really, making vampires less powerful changes little to nothing.
Finally, I find horror in the Requiem to be pretty shallow. You wake up, oh my God! you're a vampire, you take a few nights dealing with it, and then it's basically superhero gaming at night.
In the Masquerade, after spending a few nights dealing with it, you slowly begin realizing that your vampire brethren are less than friendly... and that there's that rival sect out for your blood... and that the inquisition still exists... and that every government agency in the world has an office specialized in dealing with you... but that all of that won't matter anyway, because your forebears from before the great deluge are slowly awakening... and it's then, when you're hitting the upper end of the power scale, that you realize that not only you, but indeed the entire world is just screwed on a biblical scale... and all of this crap while having to roll for self-control several times per night just to avoid killing your girlfriend... talk about horror.
1. The system is better. For once, our games were filled with castings of the spells and problems were actually solved with magic, instead of it never being used.
2. It has a clear theme! Instead of a garbled mass of stuff with little rhyme or reason that the previous edition was, stuff here actually has its place and relationships among it actually make sense.
3. Style of the game is better!!! God, I can't explain how glad I was to see all the cheap new age quasi-intellectualism and pseudo-philosophy that could only appeal to teenagers out of the book, and replace it with pure pulp action.
Although, to be completely fair, my Seers of the Throne wear black suits with dark sunglasses, have names such as "Agent Jonathan", possess an army of faceless masses enhanced with various hi-tech gadgets, seek to enslave humanity through technology and call themselves "Technocracy".
As for Vampire, I haven't been carefully following the new VtR, but fluffwise, it can't be worse than VtM that started like a simple emo RPG and turned into super Vampires who create Ghouls, morph themselves into gigantic bone creatures and cast lightning down on their enemies while flying over the cities.
... super Vampires who create Ghouls, morph themselves into gigantic bone creatures and cast lightning down on their enemies while flying over the cities.
But you hardly ever got to do those things yourself as a PC. You were just the poor neonate trying to get the Hell away. I don't know why so many people associate this game with "superheroes with fangs", seeing how some of the most gritty adventures I've ever played were in this system.
But you hardly ever got to do those things yourself as a PC. You were just the poor neonate trying to get the Hell away. I don't know why so many people associate this game with "superheroes with fangs", seeing how some of the most gritty adventures I've ever played were in this system.
Because you'd get a new book, read it and be like "Ok, so Tzimisce is actually a gigantic pancake of flesh that is under New York. Yeah, cool. Ok, now I'll pretend I've never read this stuff".
A good comparison I find for the two, is Masquerade is "punk-horror" your up against outside forces that want to squash you good! While Requiem is "gothic-horror" you deal with the internal forces rallied up against you and your slow decent into monstrosity.
Politics wise, I would say it is more elaborate. Yeah sure the Clans went against each other at times, but when push came to shove the big changes was the Sabbat or Camarilla (with the Anarchs annoying both). Now you got tons of different ideologies, tons of different alliances and enemies going on and also Clan politics on-top, or hell even Bloodline politics. You wouldn't see the Sabbat or Camarilla teamed up, but in Requiem you may see the Circle and the Ordo Dracul team up to stop the Invictus from destroying ancient magical tomes for being blasphemies, etc.
Plus there is less hatred amongst the supers themselves. Werewolves and the Circle for instance have teamed up before because of common interest. Or the Dracul will team up with Mages to gleam magical knowledge from each other.
These are my two favourite Covenants so thus why using them as examples.
Power wise there is a definite difference before a human you could squash easily, now if not prepared a bunch of gang bangers will leave you out for the sun to fry.
The horror in Requiem is personal not external, that is the difference. In the new one instead of placing the horror aspect in the, "holy **** look what kind of world I have entered" it is now, "oh god! I have become a monster!". No longer is the condition left to the side as you deal with crazy happenings in the world, it is at the fore. You may spend a whole session trying to hide the bodies of a bunch of humans you massacred in a frenzy.
It wasn't exactly left to the side, though. Humanity (and your slow loss of it) played an important path in the old Vampire game, at least unless you were playing Sabbat. Sure, sometimes your PC wasn't quite aware that they were losing it. That made a fine part of the plot, though - trading morals for power without even being aware that you do so. Besides, there's plenty of time to stash the victims somewhere. All those metaplots, 30 kinds of monsters etc don't come into your game unless your storyteller wants it that way or your character goes out of his/her way to look for them. That reminds me...
As for the relationships of various supernaturals, I was fine with it in oWoD. They were hostile, but tended not to mess with each other too much. No matter how powerful they were, there was always something that went bump into the night - and unless they had to, they by and large did not want to enquire too much into it. That's how I understood it, at least. Oh, and they did sometimes cooperate. Sure, it was extremely rarely, but that could highlight just how epic the threat to them all was.
As for supernaturals cooperating, your mention at the end of them cooperating when the threat was epic enough sorta goes back to new Vampire and well the new games in general their more local, more personal. You may cooperate with a werewolf for much more benign reasons, then in old.
I guess basically my main point is that the new games are much more personal affairs, everything generally happens in the one city, outside the city is viewed as cloudy and unsure (extremely xenophobiac), local and personal threats are much more serious (you don't need a whole group of hunters to cause a stir a single one will do). Heck the kind of fights the Sabbat and Camarilla got into on a nightly basis would be unheard of levels of violence in new, unless say a bunch of the Brood came by and they be eliminated as quickly as possible.
And again while yes the old game could do this too, the feel and focus of the game was less oriented towards this as the new is.
I do find the political landscape of Requiem to be much more interesting then Masquarade. The Clans are less ridgid in their interpritation and the five sects offer so many more interesting interactions than two automatically hostile to each other sects of the first game. Plus each ofthe five has their own sub-sects for even greater plots and intrigues. I've been part of an All Lancia Sanctum game that centered in a conflict between the five major Creeds.
and I played a Mortal game that grew into a Mage game, which may have been the most fun I ever had. (run by a first time storyteller of all things. Guy did a fantastic job)
A game should just be a set of tools to have fun with, not a straight jacket. Near it's end the OWoD had been burried in it's own fluff.
I find the new one a much more fun Tool to play with
It was quite ridiculous in the Old World of Darkness. A starting werewolf could easily pwn a starting coterie of vampires. The werewolf didn't have to worry about losing Humanity by using its powers, while the vampires would lose Humanity by killing the werewolf even in self-defense.
Vampire hunters tracking you down? Too bad. You're going to lose Humanity just trying to defend yourself from them.
So yeah...
Who needs humanity? I haz tase-t hoomanz reiht har!
Can I have some BBQ sauce?
I think these books do it right, even though I have only played 5 or so games of the older system. I didn't like vampire mainly because they were....How do I say this without the vampire legions banging on my door.....they were too powerful, I like the way one person posted it, superheros with fangs.
the mage book is amazing, it gives you amazing potential for a creative person to express themselves with little restriction. and you actually can solve problems with magic, the previous edition felt a little confining IMO.
Werewolf: they are my favorite, they still have that native American feel but they are kinda like spirit detectives, that when all else fails they can kick some serous Glutious Maximus.
the others well its not bad, the hunter reminds me a lot of Supernatural, in fact I think they completely ripped it off (supernatural, not WOD), the others kinda feel out of place a little but every company needs to make money.
All in all maybe I'm just a bitter old player who hates the fact that all things come to an end. Including gaming systems. But I dont hate it. So why am I out here ranting? Hell I dont know. Maybe I was actually trying to spark like like mindedness in others to see where all those Old-WoD players went to. Kinda like proving im not going mad and that my were-wolf dice set really did exist before one by one the D10's got lost.
Proverbial provication that is pathetic. Problably a pursuit of popular prosperity and proud punctuality. Preferably pleasant in the perceptions..
If you please.------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tell you one thing I dont miss.
1.)Is 13-40 year olds walking around acting like they were REAL vampires after the game was over. Having found out that the character they portrayed was just their alternate personality of a wanna be.
2.)The were-wolf players who turned out to be Pro-Furry. And would not play any other type of mortal or supernatural.. regardless of the entire point that the game setting was completely dedicated to Changeling the Dreaming.
3.) A Player who in character got killed.. And the next game theres a character who looks just like them played by the same player with the same habits, stats, and scores talking about, "my name is Rex". (when the first characters name was Vex..) Cookie Cutter brand.
4.) Mixing up IC and OOC info. You'd be outraged to see how many players I caught being unable to back up how their character knew where another player was staying during the day, or something as simple as "how did you know it was secretely her transport? If the goul was made yesturday whom it belonged to? And you were out of town.. No contacts..no hear say of rumor? Not even a shred of auspex.. so you cant even say "I saw it with a discipline while concentrating."
Scene-->DENIED.
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Which brings me to this drawbridge.
Can player go too far with thier imagination..? I've seen Rpg's take over and destroy peoples lives. And as a Professional DM, Rulesmyster, Ref, GM, Writer of Fate, Holemyster, Action Coordinator, and Scene director.
It's a shame to see people lose themselves.
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Although it was hilarious to see a few fights occur over in game antics. :D
And if you keep munching on me Pig Knight, your either going to be blood bound to me or your going to get a blood disease. Cause im poisonous.
*dies*
The new White Wolf is almost as bad as the new Wizards of the Coast stuff.
..hey this thread is about old and new white wolf. So i feel i do not have to get involved with that one. That topic my friend is an entire post in itself. And in fact. Wear this. *hands cottonmather a shirt with a bulls eye on the front and words on the back that read, "For best effect. BACK STAB HERE."
*hides behind a wall and hopes it doesnt get ugly.*
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Hey. No offense. Better you than me. I'm staying out of this one. And good luck.
And I really, really don't miss oWoD stereotypes. The werewolf tribes were terrible for this. There was an Irish tribe, an **** tribe, a nazi-feminist tribe, a hobo tribe, a yuppie tribe, a hippy tribe (I do miss the Red Talons though, I liked them. And a few of the other changing breeds, especially the rokea. The rokea were pretty awesome).
Like that last one (R2d6) too btw. Nj that.
1.)Is 13-40 year olds walking around acting like they were REAL vampires after the game was over.
Ha! You have no idea!
I can't remember how many Monday/Friday nights out to club for goth/industrial night back in the day you'd see the regular patrons, PIBs (ppl in black as it were, natch ;)), drinking, dancing, mincing, carousing, then...you see the LARPers in the back hamming it up by the pool tables, neither dancing or drinking, much less socializing out of their very tight, oh-so-exclusive network. Pay a cover to do what you could do for free?
Now, some of them were alright, don't get me wrong, a few friends in the mix there, namely since I was a 3rd ed pen/paper VtM gamer, but my god...all you needed was a little T&A in a corset and these "gamers" were suddenly clamoring to "power up your character", if you know what I mean. Not exactly the pinnacle of impartial gaming. Gossip was a currency...
2.)The were-wolf players who turned out to be Pro-Furry.
Sadly, never got to play Werewolf. But yeah, I heard enough along these lines.
3.) A Player who in character got killed.. And the next game theres a character who looks just like them ...
Plenty, but I've seen that in 3.x as well, like, a lot. Speaks more for the player than it does for the game I guess. More than a little sad.
4.) Mixing up IC and OOC info.
Oh, yeah...
Funny thing about sunlight being a real prompt motivator of "incredible coincidences" among a slew of other BS extraordinaire moves.
I guess, I'd like to give the new mechanics a whirl and see what all the rumpus is about, but place it firmly in what I knew prior, the old history.
Plenty are doing that w/ 4th ed D&D. Not my bag, but to each his own. They like the new rules, but despise the total reformatting of Faerun.
But these are my thoughts about new editions in general - they're different and do different things better. Ultimately, I go with the newer system because I spent too many years in systems with no growth (SW WEG, though I loved it dearly, was already dead when I played it for years).
I don't think that it has to be a "better" choice. I like both systems and Worlds of Darkness differently.
Is this an edition-war thread for a non-WotC game? ;)
Having played both, new Mage is light years ahead from the old one.
erk.
1. The system is better. For once, our games were filled with castings of the spells and problems were actually solved with magic, instead of it never being used.
This I 100% agree with. I loved the openess of the old Mage magic system, but often it was a wee bit *too* open. It was a headache to ST, no denying that. I've always loved Paradox too - but even back then, I treated it more as "weird sh-- happens which may-or-may-not be bad!" than "take X Aggs because you tried to be a mage in Mage".
2. It has a clear theme! Instead of a garbled mass of stuff with little rhyme or reason that the previous edition was, stuff here actually has its place and relationships among it actually make sense.
I'm not really sure what you refer to here. I liked a lot of the old theme, especially the paranoia the Technocracy instilled in players. Mmm, HITMarks. There's nothing quite like sending an Ahnold after someone who bought way too much eye of newt with his credit card... (I kid, I kid) :P
The only relationships I can think of that didn't make sense was the really out-there stuff like in the Book of Worlds...but that was kinda the point. "Realms of pure thought"? (That may be my favorite sourcebook of all time btw)
3. Style of the game is better!!! God, I can't explain how glad I was to see all the cheap new age quasi-intellectualism and pseudo-philosophy that could only appeal to teenagers out of the book, and replace it with pure pulp action.
...right. I really don't know what to make of this. You're saying it's great they replaced all the "cheap new age quasi-intellectualism and pseudo-philosophy" with a single cheap new age philosophy (you're all descendants of Atlantis! Woo...?). I don't really see that as an improvement...but then, I'm a lover of tons of options.
In any case, claiming "nWoD factions aren't like the stereotypes we had before" is the most ridiculous statement ever. It's something someone who didn't really read the old material but just heard about it from a friend, kind of like the people who say "you can't roleplay in 4e!". Both games are replete with stereotypes - they're factions with limited page space, that's the point.
I think the rules changes by and large are great (bonus dice for Rotes but keeping the "open to interpretation" magic? Hells yes). But I do despise the loss of the "belief is reality" tone of old Mage. (Also pet peeve - tossing out so many of the old cool names - could've at least reused them.)
Although, to be completely fair, my Seers of the Throne wear black suits with dark sunglasses, have names such as "Agent Jonathan", possess an army of faceless masses enhanced with various hi-tech gadgets, seek to enslave humanity through technology and call themselves "Technocracy".
Yeah. If I were playing Mage now I would probably be using nWoD rules and tossing out all the fluff and renaming/flavoring/scouring things into oWoD versions. Like your quote above, just more drastic. :P
1.)Is 13-40 year olds walking around acting like they were REAL vampires after the game was over.
2.)The were-wolf players who turned out to be Pro-Furry.
Sadly, never got to play Werewolf. But yeah, I heard enough along these lines.
3.) A Player who in character got killed.. And the next game theres a character who looks just like them ...
4.) Mixing up IC and OOC info.
Since this was a "what I won't miss" list, I'm curious...have people noticed these problems actually shrinking with the new editions?
I haven't, albeit with some permutations. For example:
- #3 I've seen increase in nWoD and decrease in 4e D&D, as it is easier/harder to die now, respectively.
- #4 I've seen no change in nWoD games, but an increase in 4e - by necessity. The rules themselves make metagaming more likely, as the default rule for all effects is "unless effect says otherwise, you understand the full effect when you use it or it is used on you" (like the paladin's mark).
I submit these will be a presence in any game (a problem of bad player, not game), and the edition differences don't impact it much.
Is this an edition-war thread for a non-WotC game? ;)
I'm sure we can keep it more civil than that. :P
And I really, really don't miss oWoD stereotypes. The werewolf tribes were terrible for this. There was an Irish tribe, an **** tribe, a nazi-feminist tribe, a hobo tribe, a yuppie tribe, a hippy tribe (I do miss the Red Talons though, I liked them. And a few of the other changing breeds, especially the rokea. The rokea were pretty awesome).
I wholeheartedly agree. Werewolf got my particular ire for this because the game actively punished you for trying to act outside the stereotypes, particularly when it came down to auspice. That and the fact that things tended to extremes rather than giving at least one middle ground option kinda irked me.
The only relationships I can think of that didn't make sense was the really out-there stuff like in the Book of Worlds
The thing is that they mixed literary every concept they wrote down on a napkin during lunch hours. Just look at the factions - "oho, we'll have Cyberpunk guys, and Wicca guys, and... ummm... Oh, and Spirit Shamans, and some guys we ourselves aren't sure of what they are but we'll call them Euthanatos, etc..."
Old Mage literary tried to do to much. It was all over the place. New Mage is much more concise and to the point.
...right. I really don't know what to make of this. You're saying it's great they replaced all the "cheap new age quasi-intellectualism and pseudo-philosophy" with a single cheap new age philosophy (you're all descendants of Atlantis! Woo...?). I don't really see that as an improvement...but then, I'm a lover of tons of options.
The thing that irks me most is when people ascribe a philosophical depth to the old Mage and claim its the best thing in the universe. Avatars, Seekings, all that self-help stuff. And then it showed it down your throat. If you were playing by the book the way authors intended*, your character could as well be sitting down doing nothing and talking randomness until he Ascends in a mock version of Waiting for Godot.
Now, new Mage does have a bit of Plato sprinkled out, but its where it should be - deep in the background. And what's in the foreground? Rotes such as "Be the guy from Equilibrium". Now the fluff is more like "You're all descendants of Atlantis! Now go and kick butt while looking cool"
*- Come think of it, I remember my old description of the old Mage: "This is a system someone wrote down thinking how he'd like to play it, not how he'd like to run it".
In any case, claiming "nWoD factions aren't like the stereotypes we had before"
I don't know where you got this, but I'll chip in on this one as well. I've never been a big fan of factions in any WW RPG. I always thought they were crap. That said, I can somehow live with the Paths in the new Mage a little bit easier than with old Traditions.
Maybe because there's less of them, so they made them a bit more open. Maybe because they're now all variations of a single theme, rather than a cyberpunker, a wiccan, a merlin-wannabee, some sort of religious zealot (if I remember correctly), emo-guy, etc. etc. all rolled into one. And oh, an Aboriginian tribal Shaman hanging out with all these guys - who all HATE each other (because, as we know, groups hating each other is GOOD ROLEPLAYING) but are all forced to work together.
No, seriously, give me the new Paths if I must use something.
I think the rules changes by and large are great (bonus dice for Rotes but keeping the "open to interpretation" magic? Hells yes). But I do despise the loss of the "belief is reality" tone of old Mage. (Also pet peeve - tossing out so many of the old cool names - could've at least reused them.)
*shrug*
I really don't dislike the new Plato-based fluff. I mean, I'm used to WW fluff being something on that level of quality. Could old stuff be worked with? Yes, it could. Can new one be worked with as well? Sure it can. So I don't mind it really.
I wholeheartedly agree. Werewolf got my particular ire for this because the game actively punished you for trying to act outside the stereotypes, particularly when it came down to auspice. That and the fact that things tended to extremes rather than giving at least one middle ground option kinda irked me.
Well I cant say I agree.. Without the old foegies slappin around the youngins claiming you better do what the tribal masters have planned. There wouldnt be room for upstarts trying tro change things. Or inner struggles. And the Garou may actually be able to patch things up with the Bete, Mokole, ratkin, Naga.. and the Rokea.. Maybe even the Gurahl. Corax dont count.. they never left or stopped running thier mouthes. It's all in the effect.
Personally I think we should all take a long look at the book,
Were-wolf APOCOLYPSE.. Placing the story at its end.. and everything you know it goes straight to hell.. LOL Who falls.. who doesnt.. How the Black spiral dancers have constructed the five columns of flesh.. to connect the realms and screw people over with a full onslaught..
I lost 97% of my characters in that books creation. And I liked playing every last one of them within it. Story told.. story ended.. Good Game!
The only people who survived to help shape were-kind had to be either very powerful, cunning, or just in hiding.. Cause Everyone, and I mean everyone felt it.
My favorite Book out of the entire collection. and If I baught any one back.. it would be that one alone. *has chill bumps* Greatest climaxes EVER.
an edition war? I never said that. ^-^ ?... did i really imply that? I guess i did. I can follow NwoD but i'd rather player OwoD.. point said. and until they atleast add more content to match or supercede the old version. I cannot say I'll ever be interested.
This is more like an edition police action, so, no biggie.
Though, truth be told, I have found my 3rd ed stocks of Shadowrun preferable to my 4th ed and 3.5 D&D to 4th if that's any measure. Jumped from 2nd ed to 3.x though. Looked good. But to each his/her own.
Perhaps I'm just anachronistic or stuck in my ways as I know I'm not qualified to critique nWoD, having not played it, only read it in depth. It's just I found 3rd ed Vampire (never played Wraith, Werewolf, Mage...i know, i know
) in the oWoD was sound, worked well, and got alot of requests from my friends the players. Seemed like a smart match.Plus, during the oWoD, you could see that's when White Wolf reached its zenith of popularity. I'd see non-gamers running around concerts in clan Brujah shirts, garden variety goths buying The Book of Nod for literary appeal, all manner of fandom & things like that.
Plus, "Kindred: The Embrace", pretty much says it all. Granted, it was a pilot on Fox, and not a good one IMO (Aaron Spelling :mad
, but it got airtime, which tells me something. For what it's worth, it's in circulation presently on the current programming line-up on the Chiller channel ["Chll"] if you are curious. Do take note, it's '96 and Fox, so, uh, you know...-Joni
Plus, during the oWoD, you could see that's when White Wolf reached its zenith of popularity. I'd see non-gamers running around concerts in clan Brujah shirts, garden variety goths buying The Book of Nod for literary appeal, all manner of fandom & things like that.
Yeah. That would be me. What got me hooked up in the first place. Then came the video game V:tM Redemption, and by that point my soul was pretty much lost.Perhaps I'm just anachronistic or stuck in my ways as I know I'm not qualified to critique nWoD, having not played it, only read it in depth. It's just I found 3rd ed Vampire (never played Wraith, Werewolf, Mage...i know, i know
Same here. Though I'm not sure I'm quite old enough to patronizingly mumble "Good ol' times" through my beard, 'cause otherwise I totally would :P
EDIT: @Joni-san: What is
?
Heh, nice. Don't feel bad, I'm sure White Wolf doesn't and there isn't an "elistist gamers club" that I'm privvy to. If it turns on gamers, so be it.
I mean, how many kids watched LotR, read The Legend of Drizzt Do'Urden graphic novels, and so forth, got enticed and picked up the d20 & a pencil?
Hell, I bought 1st ed Shadowrun in '89 (middle school) cuz' I really dug the illustrations of all things. Had no clue about the actual mechanics, just thought, "Ohh, cool!" You know how many lawns it takes for a kid to afford that outside of his 2nd ed D&D stocks? So, I guess it paid off for FASA.
Didn't actually start playing till high school and then, bam, 2nd ed came out. Re-upped, trend continued. Years past and here we are for good or ill...
Same here. Though I'm not sure I'm quite old enough to patronizingly mumble "Good ol' times" through my beard, 'cause otherwise I totally would :P
Just wait. It's hard to stop a train if that makes any sense. It's scary, but we slowly fall into these niches, especially gamers as loyalty is not a lost concept on those that have spent hours upon hours socializing & growing w/ friends in some imaginary land. Actually, it's a lot like drug addiction I guess and there's no gamer rehab now anyway. Withdrawl is painful, like growing old and seeing the things you loved fall to the side.
[You're not afraid?]
...you will be
;)
Hell, I bought 1st ed Shadowrun in '89 (middle school) cuz' I really dug the illustrations of all things.
Really? Awesome. Which comes to remind me - do you know the game Inquisitor (calls itself a narrative wargame, but I think it's rather a tactical RPG)? Well, before I actually spoke English, I was totally into 40k (thank God we have a good German translation). Well, I saw this book, and what got me hooked up was... of all things... that it had stats for a hand flamer. To this day, I cannot believe that I bought a book for thirty bucks because it had stats for a hand flamer. Worse, the book was only available in English. Still, I bought it. You cannot imagine how geeky I feel admitting I learned English completely from scratch by means of a gaming rulebook. :embarrass
Also made for interesting situations when I got to America two years later: I could talk with great expertise on futuristic weapons and daemon summoning, yet was unable to order a cup of coffee. Riiight. Of course, that means that all gamers loved me immediately, so at least I had no trouble finding friends :D
And of course, all good things come to an end, and that is why Inquisitor is out of print, the company no longer exists, and the website went down a good year ago. Leaving nothing behind but my old books of my first RPG ever. Talk about an addiction...