Cool!
And nice rifles too!
If this is for real, people make me sad.
I guess it's supposed to be funnier than the German soldiers who've taken to wearing a badge with 'I fight for Merkel' as a sarcastic objection to the war.
(And to immediately counter R_H who will whine about my stance towards the military, this is endangering the people working around you. In addition to totally not getting what the military is doing there, it's going to inspire people to hate you which is bad for both the war effort and the safety of yourself and your team)
I don't know about Merkel so I'm not going to comment
As the chancellor, Merkel is responsible for keeping German troops in Afghanistan, if not for sending them there in the first place. Most likely, the German government has been as bad as most other governments at telling the population what the war was really about, what the costs are, and when it'll end, so disgruntled soldiers, and others, are probably starting to feel like it's her private war and they're just sent there to die for her sake. Maybe not fair, but at least they're directing the hostility home.
but imho any soldier wearing a badge like that should get an immediate dishonourable discharge from the military.(And to immediately counter R_H who will whine about my stance towards the military, this is endangering the people working around you. In addition to totally not getting what the military is doing there, it's going to inspire people to hate you which is bad for both the war effort and the safety of yourself and your team)
I completely agree. Soldiers who disrespect the people they're supposed to be there to protect are a danger. War is not fun, and if you think it is, the least you can do is not direct the humour at the people suffering the most from it, especially not when you're feeding into conspiracy theories about religious crusades which a good deal of people, many of them military, fight hard to put down.
(And to immediately counter R_H who will whine about my stance towards the military, this is endangering the people working around you. In addition to totally not getting what the military is doing there, it's going to inspire people to hate you which is bad for both the war effort and the safety of yourself and your team)
I never commented on that patch or give my opinion of it one way or another.
You assume too much plu, and are too quick to pick fights with me.
*shrug*
You posted it as a "nice picture". If that is not your opinion of the picture, perhaps you should've mentioned that.
Since when does "picture" mean "patch"?
And I said something about the rifles...
I never mentioned that patch.
Try again.
Plu it's meant to be funny. Theres no need to say that it endangers anybody. It really doesn't. Even terrorists have a sense of humor
Not always ;)
Which is to say; it's not a joke to many people.
Also I refuse to believe you would post that picture unless you have something to say about the patch R_H, so if you have an opinion on it I'd like to hear it and if you don't I'd like to know why you picked this one out of all the images you could.
That's kind of the crucial step you two are missing there.
Is it insensitive? Sure is.
But frankly war is an insensitive in humane thing anyway. War isn't about the other person's feelings and sensibilities.
Because the image many Muslims will get from this is "I consider everything you believe in to be laughable". Now that might be something you can tolerate from people who you don't know and talk to over the internet, but it's very unsuitable for a soldier on duty in a foreign country.
There's a reason they don't (or shouldn't... you never know) let police officers wear badges that say "I love beating on the religious ones most", even if said badge has a cute picture of an officer beating an obviously religious fellow in a funny way.
While the image itself might not be enough to incite people to danger, the feeling that this image generates may.
Because the image many Muslims will get from this is "I consider everything you believe in to be laughable". Now that might be something you can tolerate from people who you don't know and talk to over the internet, but it's very unsuitable for a soldier on duty in a foreign country.
There's a reason they don't (or shouldn't... you never know) let police officers wear badges that say "I love beating on the religious ones most", even if said badge has a cute picture of an officer beating an obviously religious fellow in a funny way.
Oh my god I'm not even high and I almost fell out of my chair laughing!!! Besides lol we all know that theres germans that eat pork. And if they want to fight in the name of christianity while still getting their job done. Thats fine!
Seriously. You guys are all so $#@%ed with that attitude of yours.
While the image itself might not be enough to incite people to danger, the feeling that this image generates may.
Because the image many Muslims will get from this is "I consider everything you believe in to be laughable". Now that might be something you can tolerate from people who you don't know and talk to over the internet, but it's very unsuitable for a soldier on duty in a foreign country.
There's a reason they don't (or shouldn't... you never know) let police officers wear badges that say "I love beating on the religious ones most", even if said badge has a cute picture of an officer beating an obviously religious fellow in a funny way.
I seriously doubt that Plu. The kind of people that are prone to violence are already being recruited. You're thinking like one of those Anti Videogame people, that think playing Halo causes mass shootings. Offended feelings do not = violence instantly.
These kinds of people that would 'get offended to kill people' are already going to do so just by the soldier's skin color and enemy propaganda. Our very existence stands in defiance, and our life styles in mockery of their beliefs. They already know about how we live, eat and believe or so they've been taught.
Our society is built upon things that are Alien and in many cases Counter to the Dogma. You aren't going to "further piss off" people that are already incensed by your existence that they'll pick up a gun to shoot you with a little badge that you've got to be fairly close to make sense of and see in the first place.
Most people infact aren't even going to notice. Most people are rather dimbulbed. So there's that large swath of potential "psycho killers!" not going to care. The others? Probably are already setting up IEDs.
If nothing else, this serves as psychological warfare. "Yes we know you want to kill us, just for breathing. You know what? **** you. I don't care".
Yes and most cops aren't also allowed to just shoot the suspect either. (Despite how much easier that would make things for us all) War entails many different levels than being a mere cop. And the fact that you would have the audacity to compare being a soldier to a cop in a warzone shows how little you know of either.
It's quite clear why no one cares about the little countries that worry about offending someone just by breathing. Because if we did, nothing would ever get done
I seriously doubt that Plu
Honestly? It's pissing me off, and I'm not religious, not being opressed and not in a warzone. I doubt that this has no effect on them.
It's like soldiers walking into a mosque in Iraq with their shoes on and pissing on the carpets, and then claiming "whatever, I don't care about you" and then getting upset that it's pissing people off.
This is incredibly insulting to all those people these soldiers are trying to "protect", and if you can't see that... damn.
Jesse that's about as funny as me using a david's star with "supporting the cause" as my avatar.
Which is to say; it's not a joke to many people.
Also I refuse to believe you would post that picture unless you have something to say about the patch R_H, so if you have an opinion on it I'd like to hear it and if you don't I'd like to know why you picked this one out of all the images you could.
It was the only picture of German soldiers on the website I visited, here: www.strategypage.com
My opinion of the patch?
I wouldn't let my soldiers wear it.
*shrug*
I wouldn't let my soldiers wear it.
That's seriously good to hear
Most of the people that would get offended over this enough that the team would be in danger of, are already trying to kill them.
That's kind of the crucial step you two are missing there.
Is it insensitive? Sure is.
But frankly war is an insensitive in humane thing anyway. War isn't about the other person's feelings and sensibilities.
I agree Cap'n.
While the image itself might not be enough to incite people to danger, the feeling that this image generates may.
Because the image many Muslims will get from this is "I consider everything you believe in to be laughable". Now that might be something you can tolerate from people who you don't know and talk to over the internet, but it's very unsuitable for a soldier on duty in a foreign country.
There's a reason they don't (or shouldn't... you never know) let police officers wear badges that say "I love beating on the religious ones most", even if said badge has a cute picture of an officer beating an obviously religious fellow in a funny way.
I seriously doubt that Plu. The kind of people that are prone to violence are already being recruited. You're thinking like one of those Anti Videogame people, that think playing Halo causes mass shootings. Offended feelings do not = violence instantly.
These kinds of people that would 'get offended to kill people' are already going to do so just by the soldier's skin color and enemy propaganda. Our very existence stands in defiance, and our life styles in mockery of their beliefs. They already know about how we live, eat and believe or so they've been taught.
Our society is built upon things that are Alien and in many cases Counter to the Dogma. You aren't going to "further piss off" people that are already incensed by your existence that they'll pick up a gun to shoot you with a little badge that you've got to be fairly close to make sense of and see in the first place.
Most people infact aren't even going to notice. Most people are rather dimbulbed. So there's that large swath of potential "psycho killers!" not going to care. The others? Probably are already setting up IEDs.
If nothing else, this serves as psychological warfare. "Yes we know you want to kill us, just for breathing. You know what? **** you. I don't care".
Yes and most cops aren't also allowed to just shoot the suspect either. (Despite how much easier that would make things for us all) War entails many different levels than being a mere cop. And the fact that you would have the audacity to compare being a soldier to a cop in a warzone shows how little you know of either.
It's quite clear why no one cares about the little countries that worry about offending someone just by breathing. Because if we did, nothing would ever get done
Well said! I'll stand by that if you don't mind.
and Plu, if you don't like my attitude...do something about it. Until you know what its like to be an American don't judge me. What I said is logical and personally I think you're acting like a swede right now. Neutrality is for those who want to be everyones friend. People are gonna hate you. People that you don't know want you to die. People that you don't know want to do harm to you.
THEMMMM. Let them do ANYTHING and see what happens. If thats something you dont agree with then I don't wanna hear you.But it's not really different from other conflicts where soldiers put catch phrases on their missiles or the kind of things you'd get on a Vietnam-period helmet.
I'd prefer no patch at all, it keeps things straight, but I actually like this one, my family having strong ties to the original crusades.
I see it serving a similar purpose to the face paint that ancient warriors wore to scare or incite emotions in their enemies.
Hot topic.
But it's not really different from other conflicts where soldiers put catch phrases on their missiles or the kind of things you'd get on a Vietnam-period helmet.
I'd prefer no patch at all, it keeps things straight, but I actually like this one, my family having strong ties to the original crusades.
I see it serving a similar purpose to the face paint that ancient warriors wore to scare or incite emotions in their enemies.
I didn't think about it like that. I figured it was just a joke.
I seriously doubt that Plu. The kind of people that are prone to violence are already being recruited. You're thinking like one of those Anti Videogame people, that think playing Halo causes mass shootings. Offended feelings do not = violence instantly.
These kinds of people that would 'get offended to kill people' are already going to do so just by the soldier's skin color and enemy propaganda. Our very existence stands in defiance, and our life styles in mockery of their beliefs. They already know about how we live, eat and believe or so they've been taught.
It's not about the suicide bombers, it's about the common population. It's also not about offence, but about fear. And pride (which is ultimately fuelled by fear). Many common people who have no wish to harm anyone fear that this is a new crusade, that foreign soldiers come in solely to, at best, eradicate their culture and religion, and at the worst, kill them. They've already been persecuted by religious fundamentalists, and they have little reason to believe the scary people with guns and badges making fun of crusading are any better,
If this was about beating some enemy who've invaded your country, and just kill them or scare them back home, I would agree that contempt could work, but in this case, we're trying to prove to the civilian population that we're there to help, and not just by walking all over them and arrange things to our liking, but by helping them achieve freedom and independence to live their own lives. Fighting terrorism is different than beating an organised army, and PR is crucial.
PR is crucial.
to an extent. We're not meant to be the shining gods of their new civilization. And as far as I knew it was americans that they had a problem with so why would they care what Germans do?
and how did I manage to mess this up so bad lol it says Erato but this is Jesse. sorry.
When you try to make people accept/tolerate/not kill you, it's best to try and befriend them instead of insulting them.
"Yes we know you want to kill us, just for breathing. You know what? **** you. I don't care".
It doesn't say "we know you want to kill us", it says "we don't give a %$#@ about you". There is a serious difference when it comes to the people you don't want a kill (as in 99% of them at this time)
People are gonna hate you.
And with that attitude, I don't blame them.
Also the war against Iraq was won. The only thing you are doing now is occupying the country and fighting insurgants. Who, not being a nation, cannot really be declared war upon, but hey whatever makes you happy.
At any rate, at this time the military has a job to protect these people who they now basically occupy, and crap like that isn't going to help anyone. A basic bit of respect shouldn't be too much to ask for.
And if they want to fight in the name of christianity while still getting their job done. Thats fine!
No, it's not. Not even a little bit. When religion is part of what fuels your enemy and you see that as a problem, you don't get to do the same. This isn't some religious pissin' contest and it can't be if we ever want it to end. Nobody wins that crap. It's why this started in the first place. It's why it's still going on. Any soldier over there fighting in the name of any religion should be rotated immediately home and discharged. As a soldier, your individual feelings don't get a role. Fighting in the name of religion is fighting a war that will never end.
It becomes clearer everyday why so many people hate Americans...
Seriously. You guys are all so $#@%ed with that attitude of yours.
Whoa, not fair. And this sort of comment makes it clear to me that Europeans judge Americans solely on those that haven't a clue. It seems very much like a 'we get it, you don't' attitude that tends to agitate the people you're allegedly talking to. If we can't know you better than you know yourselves, you can't know us better than we do, either. Not cool.
to an extent. We're not meant to be the shining gods of their new civilization. And as far as I knew it was americans that they had a problem with so why would they care what Germans do?
You do realise that other countries than the US have been victims of terror? That more people than just Americans have been pronounced infidels and received death threats? That non-American soldiers are killed daily Afghanistan and Iraq? And that many people consider Westerners/Christians/Anglo-Jews as being the collective enemy?
Nobody was put on this Earth to cater to the whims of others Plu. America is expected to do something about stuff that goes down on our soil. We're there for war first, and anything else second. Are you saying that you hate me because I uphold the ideas of my country Plu?
The soldiers are not on their own soil. You can't fight terror by bombing, unless you're prepared to eradicate the whole country. People who're poor, depressed, uneducated, oppressed, hurt, who see family members die, and foreigners walking all over them, are all potential terrorists. Many suicide bombers have been sick, disabled, alone, and possible clinically depressed, murdering people's families are not going to create less of those. Besides, whatever you personally think, your country (and all of ours, including Germany) insist they're not there as conquerors, but want to help the population. If that's true, then this is the wrong way to go about it, and if it's a lie, can you then really blame people for getting a negative impression of the western world and the Christian religion?
I can still see why many other people do (it's a very common thing to do) but I should know better
Consider the second part withdrawn.
I don't think very highly of European socialists.
So Plu can hate Americans if he wants to, I couldn't care any less than I already do.
He is only making himself look foolish.
*shrug*
That's like saying "I'll keep whipping you until you love me!" and expecting it to work.
Uhm... if "the job" is "stop them from all hating us and trying to kill us", then "how they perceive me" is 99% of the job.
That's like saying "I'll keep whipping you until you love me!" and expecting it to work.
uh actually that can work. Literally, the constant threat of harm could POSSIBLY make them quit being fxcking stupid and trying to kill us.
Uhm... if "the job" is "stop them from all hating us and trying to kill us", then "how they perceive me" is 99% of the job.
That's like saying "I'll keep whipping you until you love me!" and expecting it to work.
Pretty much what I wanted to say: if the coalition wants to cut terrorist resources from locals, antagonizing and dehumanizing them is not the way to do it.
BTW., those guys are German, no need to antagonize Americans here.
Uhm... if "the job" is "stop them from all hating us and trying to kill us", then "how they perceive me" is 99% of the job.
That's like saying "I'll keep whipping you until you love me!" and expecting it to work.
uh actually that can work. Literally, the constant threat of harm could POSSIBLY make them quit being fxcking stupid and trying to kill us.
No that doesn't. There comes a point where people stop caring about the harm, and still try to kill you. Just ask any suicide bomber about how much he cares about being harmed in trying to kill you. (oh wait)
No to mention that they'll just try to harm you covertly so that they can escape the retaliation, instead of honestly not trying to harm you anymore.
Not that I believe that you can try to stop everyone from harming you, but this is just increasing the number of people that do want to harm you, or at least dislike you enough to not tell you when harm is coming your way from other people.
Meh, fair point Z_B. I shouldn't judge Americans in general based on the lowest common denominator.
I can still see why many other people do (it's a very common thing to do) but I should know better
Consider the second part withdrawn.
It's cool, man. We're all guilty of that stuff from time to time. Doesn't help that the lowest common denominators are also typically the loudest folks with the greatest desire to be heard, either. ;)
And zombie I was talking about on a personal level.
So was I. We don't need crusaders fighting in the name of faith. Those people are dangerous. Very dangerous. You're not there for personal reasons. You represent your country with every action you take. Fighting in the name of your religion is not acceptable.
Meh, fair point Z_B. I shouldn't judge Americans in general based on the lowest common denominator.
I can still see why many other people do (it's a very common thing to do) but I should know better
Consider the second part withdrawn.
It's cool, man. We're all guilty of that stuff from time to time. Doesn't help that the lowest common denominators are also typically the loudest folks with the greatest desire to be heard, either. ;)And zombie I was talking about on a personal level.
So was I. We don't need crusaders fighting in the name of faith. Those people are dangerous. Very dangerous. You're not there for personal reasons. You represent your country with every action you take. Fighting in the name of your religion is not acceptable.
I suppose you're right
Plu...I don't wanna fight with you ok?
That is to say, we aren't in a war where public opinion doesn't matter. We're in a war where we're trying to rebuild the country into something that can function in the modern world. And antagonistic patches, crusader-attitudes and holier-then-thou perspectives? Yeah, those do hurt the mission, justified or not.
I'd just like to point out that if the wars America were in were as simple as "bomb them to hell and let [insert your choice of deity] sort out the rest", then we wouldn't still be there 9 years later, trying to ensure fair and just elections, propping up their police force, and so-on.
That is to say, we aren't in a war where public opinion doesn't matter. We're in a war where we're trying to rebuild the country into something that can function in the modern world. And antagonistic patches, crusader-attitudes and holier-then-thou perspectives? Yeah, those do hurt the mission, justified or not.
QFT
I'd just like to point out that if the wars America were in were as simple as "bomb them to hell and let [insert your choice of deity] sort out the rest", then we wouldn't still be there 9 years later, trying to ensure fair and just elections, propping up their police force, and so-on.
That is to say, we aren't in a war where public opinion doesn't matter. We're in a war where we're trying to rebuild the country into something that can function in the modern world. And antagonistic patches, crusader-attitudes and holier-then-thou perspectives? Yeah, those do hurt the mission, justified or not.
QFT
+1, this, seconded, etc.
I'd just like to point out that if the wars America were in were as simple as "bomb them to hell and let [insert your choice of deity] sort out the rest", then we wouldn't still be there 9 years later, trying to ensure fair and just elections, propping up their police force, and so-on.
That is to say, we aren't in a war where public opinion doesn't matter. We're in a war where we're trying to rebuild the country into something that can function in the modern world. And antagonistic patches, crusader-attitudes and holier-then-thou perspectives? Yeah, those do hurt the mission, justified or not.
I don't really think we are there to rebuild, or else we would be finished doing that by now.... or hell at least be getting started.
That being said, part of showing these people the freedom of expression and the value of it, is showing things that they may not like to see, but teaching them that it's still okay to display them. Much akin to how the populace has since realized we aren't out to kill them all. (which is why they are complaining so much. They realize they can actually you know Do That without being butchered afterwards and never seen again)
It's as much of a benefit as a hinderance. As it shows even within the military structure that alot of the west has there's still room for expression. It also shows the terrorists that frankly we really don't care what they think.
I also don't think the people that see that patch are mentally deficient enough to not be able to figure out for whom or what the message is really for.
I also don't think the people that see that patch are mentally deficient enough to not be able to figure out for whom or what the message is really for.
Actually, the message seems to be "I hate everything that is not Christian". You know, the whole "crusader" gig? That seems to include all those people they're trying to help.
If they wanted something that targeted terrorists, they should've gotten something that targets terrorists.
Actually, the message seems to be "I hate everything that is not Christian". You know, the whole "crusader" gig? That seems to include all those people they're trying to help.
If they wanted something that targeted terrorists, they should've gotten something that targets terrorists.
We don't have any idea if this soldier is or calls himself a Christian. I agree that this badge is tasteless and that he should be ordered to remove it ASAP. But I guess that he has not the slightest idea what can be made out of it.
Also if you look at the batch it is written in two languages. I bet that the badge just states what the soldiers are called there anyways by the locals.
Its more like a person be called names all the time and then he/she decides to don a T-Shirt with that name on it. Therefore it is understandable, but not very wise to do so. Especially if you're German.
We don't have any idea if this soldier is or calls himself a Christian. I agree that this badge is tasteless and that he should be ordered to remove it ASAP. But I guess that he has not the slightest idea what can be made out of it.
If he doesn't, he should educate himself on stuff like this, because when you are deployed in a warzone, that's important information. Also I don't care if he calls himself a Christian, it's disgraceful anyway.
Its more like a person be called names all the time and then he/she decides to don a T-Shirt with that name on it. Therefore it is understandable, but not very wise to do so. Especially if you're German.
I'd consider that to be extremely unprofessional, and I'd expect better from any professional.
Oh, by the way, they are German Paratroopers, not leg Infantry as I previously thought.
What is the difference exactly?
I would tell you if I liked you.
...
I'd consider that to be extremely unprofessional, and I'd expect better from any professional.
I agree. But still I wouldn't call the fire of eternal judgement on him just because he did it. Professionals are humans, too and sometimes can make terrible mistakes.
I would say its not his fault alone but also a problem of his superior(s). Especially if a photograph is made and it makes it into the internet.
That should never have happened. A lot of things have gone wrong here.
I would say its not his fault alone but also a problem of his superior(s).
Hmmmm....
I wonder....
If the soldier(s) had the patch made themselves, or if it is an actual German military patch?
If the soldiers made it themselves, then they are "out of uniform" for adding it to their uniforms and their CO should make them remove it.
On the other hand, if it is an actual military patch.... *shrug* it is baiting at least.
I would really like to know... anybody want to research it while I am at work today? I will be in the field all day and thus away from my computer...
These people do not care about freedom of expression. That is a luxury that we have here because we eat everyday. These people are far more concerned with feeding their families then freedom of expression. If we really want to rally them to democracy, we must show them the benefits of a liberal economy. Let me laugh a bit about my own statement.
You are forgetting that ordinary people are the bulk of the people who will see the patch and it's hateful message.
It clearly is intended to insult Muslims. Explain to me how it only targets terrorists?
Yes, and a patch not being there isn't going to help or hurt putting food on the table.
Because I really don't think the average Muslim over there thinks this is a Holy War. I also think the average muslim is smart enough to see the connect between that patch and the asshats that do think of it that way. I'm also pretty sure the average muslim is smart enough to understand Humor.
Also Paratroopers vs Infantry. Paratroopers (at least from my understanding of german defense forces which may not be entirely accurate as it's been a long while since I've researched them) are generally used when things have already gone south. They are more highly and specially trained than their leg counter parts. They are more or less shock and assault specialists. So their combat role is pretty different from the leggers.
Hmmmm....
I wonder....
If the soldier(s) had the patch made themselves, or if it is an actual German military patch?
I have never served in the German armed forces myself, but my father was a Lt.Col in the airforce and so I got a little bit info from that. AFAIK there is no such thing as official patches. Basically there is some freedom for units to create their own stuff, and the CO decides what goes and what not.
I guess that the badge causes no harm in the local situation, since it is probably a common term for the soldiers in the area and therefore the only reaction they would get there by the people living there is "at least they know what they are..." - or maybe they are even called that humorously.
Probably nobody thought of what would happen if people who have no idea of what is going on there see that picture and make their judgement and their conclusions without having any information of the local situation.
That is something you should always consider, of course. But this is a very difficult task and I don't think every soldier should be capable to do this, since people who have the ability to do this are very scarce - don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself to be one of them, of course.
But people who have nothing to loose and see it might want to join the ranks of terrorits.
But the patch, that mentions crusaders and Muslims religious beliefs, might change that.
They aren't exposed to medias and other culturers or freedom of expression like we are. Erato pointed out how they reacted to the drawing sof Mohammed. And I also see smart and educated Americans reacting almost violently to critism and jokes on these forums. Calling it baiting. Even RH considers the patch to potentially be bait.
Sweet. Thank you.
Goldo, do you know the real reasons people join the terrorists? It has very litttle to do with our actions and attitudes. They join for the money, in most cases and promises that they can pay for their families after they die etc. (which aren't honored most of the time) They join because they already hate us. Or they are given a bomb held at gunpoint told their families will be murdered if they don't blow themselves up etc.
Your argument again hinges on an overly simplistic view of psychology much akin to an Anti Violent Videogame spokesman. "Violent games cause violence!" Anyone "vulnerable" to a patch changing their mind probably will be effected by other factors long before this little patch.
Yes, and that's part of the whole building them a new society thing. We have to expose them to freedoms of expression, and allow them to express themselves as well.
No problem. This is also another reason why the patch doesn't bother me. By the time you see these guys coming. someone's probably already in the thick of it.
Also, people that already hate you can be taught not to hate you, but it requires a respectful attitude to begin with. As long as you can't produce that, they'll continue to hate you. And terrorism is mostly possible from a hostile enviroment. If people hate the terrorists more then they do the invaders, terrorism will have no soil to grow on anymore.
If you make the common folk the enemy of the terrorists, then the terrorists lose.
Anyone "vulnerable" to a patch changing their mind probably will be effected by other factors long before this little patch.
This is a strange way to look at things. It's a combination of many factors that drives people over the edge, and each of those factors you take away is one of them. Just because this isn't the worst one doesn't mean that it shouldn't be remedied, precisely because things like this are very easy to remedy.
Also, people that already hate you can be taught not to hate you, but it requires a respectful attitude to begin with.
I don't know if anybody of us knows the situation where this picture was made. Maybe this patch is a sign of respect. Maybe it respects the humor of the locals, maybe it tells them "we know that we don't belong here and do stupid things"
We have no idea what the mindset of the people in this area is.
The problem is that this picture should have never been released on the internet, where everybody knows everything and his opinion is the only objective truth in the universe.
The superiors of the soldier should have known what kind of reaction this badge may cause in other parts of the world, and that's the reason why it shouldn't have been allowed to be worn.
But again, I can't blame a common soldier for forgetting about the strong opinions of armchair politicans on the web when he has to deal with his own possible death and the death of his friends every day.
Are you joking or insulting my intelligence?
Sorry, I definitely did not want to insult you. I should have stated that I have no idea and I assume that most people discussing here don't have it.
It was also not meant as a joke. I have experienced that different people can have a very different view on the same topic. In some countries coming late is disrespectful. In some countries the others think you're a bum if you arrive on time.
question of minute made experts. It is just a question of common sense, even you briefly awknowledge this before make up excuses for the unexcusable.
Honestly, there is no such thing as common sense.
Usually we define as "common sense" what we think is "common sense" which, by definition, makes it "our sense", not "common sense".
You know the usual reasons.
Though alot of the terrorists don't actually hate us. They are paid to. (because it is more money than they can make legally speaking for their families.)
A patch isn't going to enter the equation.
Pretty sure the hate, comes from lots of indoctrination, being poor, and having no proper education.
I'm pretty sure it's the indoctrination, I can feel it with a lot of people on these boards
... I'm really kinda shocked at the amount of justification that's going into this.
I am not trying to justify anything. I am just amazed how fast a judgement is made by just looking at a picture without having an idea of the context and the situation.
I have learned that two people can have a totally different opinion on the same topic and both can be very intelligent people, have thought a lot about it and have their reasons to think what they think.
I have learned that two people can have a totally different opinion on the same topic and both can be very intelligent people, have thought a lot about it and have their reasons to think what they think.
Now you're forgetting the context and the situation.
It is, as follows: a warzone.
Now you're forgetting the context and the situation.
It is, as follows: a warzone.
Well, I have been through some things in my life, but never in a warzone. And I assume that one warzone can differ a lot from an other.
My point was exactly that: I haven't been in any warzone, I haven't been in Afghanistan and I haven't been in the location where the picture has been taken. So I can't really judge what effect has the badge in that context. However, it is pretty obvious what effect it has in an internet forum.
I honestly have no idea what the intent of the soldier was and what this badge means to the locals in the area where he is deployed.
And I really doubt that anybody posting on this boards has talked to that soldier to figure it out, or made any serious attempt to research the situation.
Bottom line: I don't know, and I have heared no argument that convinced me that anybody here has the right to judge this guy.
I don't want to justify anything because I don't have enough information to make a justified decision about what he did.
I just know that the badge causes an outrage on these boards and I can understand that. And that's why I think that this picture should have never been made official on the net, and why the best approach would have been to never allow a badge like this.
And I know that usually officers should be capable to judge situations like that.
I agree that something went terribly wrong here. But it scares me how quick someone is damned for something he did by people hundreds of kilometres away, that have no idea what kind of person he is.
But it scares me how quick someone is damned for something he did by people hundreds of kilometres away, that have no idea what kind of person he is.
Ok, first, no one has "damned" him, at worst some people have said it's unprofessional conduct unbecomming of a soldier, so maybe he shouldn't be one.
Second, why is it absurd to judge someone for what they've done? Hell, I thought that was standard practice.
Third, you don't need character witnesses to recognize that something is probably going to offend someone. It doesn't take a psychologist to figure out that a crusader badge in the middle east is a brazen taunt. It is, quite simply, a "**** you, Islam" in a cute picture. Why you refuse to see this is mystifying.
secure.hostdeziners.com/www_supplysergea...
rightwingnews.com/2010/12/pork-eating-cr...
(The comments are enlightening)
penoutoftime.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-g...
(scroll down a bit)
But people who have nothing to loose and see it might want to join the ranks of terrorits.
But people who have nothing to loose and don't see it might want to join the ranks of terrorits.
At any rate, I think the patch would have been better on every level if it simply read: "BACON!!!!"
Ok, first, no one has "damned" him, at worst some people have said it's unprofessional conduct unbecomming of a soldier, so maybe he shouldn't be one.
Well, there where a lot of absolutes thrown around. I have read something about dishonorably discharged from military.
Second, why is it absurd to judge someone for what they've done? Hell, I thought that was standard practice.
And that makes me very sad. Since you should always look at the intent. While I agree that there are actions that are always bad (like - say - stealing or murder), most actions are not that easy to judge.
It doesn't take a psychologist to figure out that a crusader badge in the middle east is a brazen taunt.
Indeed the links Robin_Hoodlum provided are very interesting. I recommend to read the texts they link to.
I just wanted to say that this badge may be something completely different to us than it is to someone else.
A badge as such is made to be seen been & read by others; and thus should be judged on the emotions/... of readers (who may or may not know the context)
if you walk around with a shirt with a swastika on, how do you expect that people will react?
penoutoftime.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-g...
(scroll down a bit)
few in North America would look at a person sitting down to dog meat (sometimes consumed in Korea) or for that matter horse (consumed in Western nations like Belgium)
Belgium guy say wut?
penoutoftime.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-g...
(scroll down a bit)
few in North America would look at a person sitting down to dog meat (sometimes consumed in Korea) or for that matter horse (consumed in Western nations like Belgium)
Belgium guy say wut?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat#Belgium
Indeed the links Robin_Hoodlum provided are very interesting. I recommend to read the texts they link to.
What's there to read? The first tells where the badge can be bought, which tells us it's probably a company making them, not something the individual unit thought of on the spot, but it doesn't say anything about their consequences or ideological background. The second link is basically a bunch of guys bashing German soldiers as inferior men, based on observations made 20-30 years ago, and complaining that not liking the badge is political correctness.
The third is interesting, not for what it says (since we all know that), but for the premise. It's talking about name-calling in the context of WWII (speaking of that, it occurs to me that for a nation who was, comparatively, hardly affected by it, the US seem very occupied with that war), and basically agrees with what most of us have already said: It's something that occurs between enemies. If the soldiers do not consider, or at least appear to consider, most Afghans to be friends, or at least potential friends rather than enemies, then the claim that they (and that means we) are there to help them has little to no credibility. If that has little to no credibility, then the population has every reason to see the invading force as crusaders. And if they do, we'll probably lose the war.
penoutoftime.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-g...
(scroll down a bit)
few in North America would look at a person sitting down to dog meat (sometimes consumed in Korea) or for that matter horse (consumed in Western nations like Belgium)
Belgium guy say wut?
You never eat horse? It's not exactly common here, but I've had it at least once (nice texture, but a little sweet for my taste).
I've eaten horse. Also raw whale, whole prawns (eyes, antennae and all), "kani miso," which is the pancreas-equivalent of the crab, the egg-sacks from a fish, and roasted sea-snail. None of those get odd looks where I'm living, but tell people I eat rabbit? Shock and horror.
Of course, I revel in that reaction.
I still only realized too late that we shouldn't have used bacon fat to make some baked goods before inviting our Israeli friends over, but I let them know so they could make their own decision on that. Joked with my wife about getting them ham for a Christmas present, but not going to do that.
As for the badge, yeah. I'd call it a bad idea considering they're now peacekeeping. Offensive patches on a peacekeeping troop are not productive.
penoutoftime.blogspot.com/2009/08/when-g...
> few in North America would look at a person sitting down to dog meat (sometimes consumed in Korea) or for that matter horse (consumed in Western nations like Belgium)Belgium guy say wut?
You never eat horse? It's not exactly common here, but I've had it at least once (nice texture, but a little sweet for my taste).
I've seen restaurants that serve them, but these are also the ones that serve exotic meats.
if you walk around with a shirt with a swastika on, how do you expect that people will react?
I don't know if this comparison fits or not. I just don't know, that's all I wanted to say. I have read some other articles about this badge, and there is indeed a lot you can get from it if you just look.
I am just convinced the more you are sure that you are right, the higher is the probability that you're wrong.
That's all.
I am just convinced the more you are sure that you are right, the higher is the probability that you're wrong.
+1 inherent contradictions, very nice.
if you walk around with a shirt with a swastika on, how do you expect that people will react?
I don't know if this comparison fits or not. I just don't know, that's all I wanted to say. I have read some other articles about this badge, and there is indeed a lot you can get from it if you just look.
I am just convinced the more you are sure that you are right, the higher is the probability that you're wrong.
That's all.
I think it kind of fits; in India swastika is a neutral emblem of, if I'm not mistaken, fire and well-being?
But try wearing it in Germany or Israel.
I've eaten horse. Also raw whale, whole prawns (eyes, antennae and all), "kani miso," which is the pancreas-equivalent of the crab, the egg-sacks from a fish, and roasted sea-snail. None of those get odd looks where I'm living, but tell people I eat rabbit? Shock and horror.
I'd like to try rabbit one day.
Of things that may make some squirm I really like this.
+1 inherent contradictions, very nice.
IMO the most fundamental truths in the universe are hidden in inherent contradictions.
e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_inc...
or if you like a biblical approach: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mat...
I am just convinced the more you are sure that you are right, the higher is the probability that you're wrong.
+1 inherent contradictions, very nice.
IMO the most fundamental truths in the universe are hidden in inherent contradictions.
are you sure about that?
are you sure about that?
Hm... I guess you win ;)
I'd like to try rabbit one day.
Of things that may make some squirm I really like this.
Rabbit is actually one of my favorite things to eat. Good tastin' stuff. Dove, though? Simply amazing. And bison, too. Just on another level. Frog legs are ok, too.
Tripe is interesting. Tastes fine to me but I have texture issues. It's somewhat similar in texture to crab legs and lobster an' stuff - and I can't eat that stuff in no small part because of said texture (in other part because very fishy seafood tastes like sewage, IMO). But yeah, I never minded the taste.
Czernina, though, was always where it was at for me. My grandmother made it and I absolutely loved the stuff. Too bad I was one of about two in the family that did enjoy it and the recipe was never passed down. The cool thing was my dad was an avid duck hunter at the time so the blood was always real, definitely duck and fresh.
It is strange that this badge is still openly sold on the internet, and I really hope that it was already forbidden to be worn.
Czernina, though, was always where it was at for me. My grandmother made it and I absolutely loved the stuff. Too bad I was one of about two in the family that did enjoy it and the recipe was never passed down. The cool thing was my dad was an avid duck hunter at the time so the blood was always real, definitely duck and fresh.
Ugh, that stuff is way too fat for me. And I never liked things made with blood. Or duck, for that matter.
Useless trivia: in past "being served czarna polewka" (an alternative name) meant that your marital proposal has been rejected by your beloved's parents.
P.S.: I just talked to a friend. I trust his judgement on the matter, and he basically told me that indeed the more radical muslim will probably see a badge like this as a personal attack.
It is strange that this badge is still openly sold on the internet, and I really hope that it was already forbidden to be worn.
You can buy everything on the 'net.
It is strange that this badge is still openly sold on the internet, and I really hope that it was already forbidden to be worn.
Not strange at all. A company called Holzer Reich sells all kinds of clothes that use Nazi imagery. They even sponsored MMA fighters until it was discovered just what sort of message they were sending. Anyhoo, yeah, it'd be good if all militaries in theater banned this patch.
And I guess especially the last sentence should also be taken seriously by the German forces:
"All commands are instructed to implement sensitivity training upon receipt"
"All commands are instructed to implement sensitivity training upon receipt"
Maybe he got it, just used the knowledge in entirely the wrong way