Many of my fellow Christians associate D&D with Satan worship and this sort of thing does not help with public relations. And more importantly this affects me directly. A few years ago I was forced to endure a brief anti-D&D tirade from the pulpit of my church. A missionary supported by my church actually mentioned D&D as an example of how the US is tainted by Satan worship.
To keep this in perspective you should also know that in my current campaign world I am using Asmodeus as one of the key deities of evil so I am not questioning the need to use such beings in gaming. What I am saying is that some ignorant people will misinterpret this t-shirt to imply that D&D promotes Satan worship. We desperately need to avoid such a blunder. I urge Wizards and Hasbro to re-think this decision and pull this t-shirt. Link below.
http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/dungeons_and_dragons/rock_me_asmodeus.html#bigdesign
In fact, I think I might order one. It is pretty humorous. If ignorant people want to believe that, then let them. People who are actually influenced by Pulling or Schnobelen's efforts are sheep. And in the event that I heard someone disparaging DnD, regardless of the location, I would make my voice known and actually give people evidence that to the contrary. This kind of stuff makes me very, very angry.
To be completely honest, I have many times thought of "Rock Me Asmodeus" during that song, and I was raised in a heavily catholic home. Does that mean that DnD has made me think of Asmodeus? Well, technically. But at the same time, I certainly don't follow the lord of darkness or what-have-you, fictional or otherwise.
It already appears you made one sale of a product you object to.
Not sure if you are requesting a boycott or just offering advice to marketing, if the later you could have emailed them as opposed to posting on a forum that might be read by millions.
I am a non-Christian and at times get upset about things that have been put out by TSR and/or WotC, however I do not seek to advertise them.
The other idea that occurs to me is if marketing licensed the use of their trademark in the first place. A C&D could be issued should WotC determine that product was not licensed or was abused in concern about all the millions of Satanists (or is it billions now) that eat babies once a month, just like Jews were accused of doing, Christians were accused of, and I am sure other faiths were accused of. All in all some Christians believe gaming is bad and others do not, Some people of any faith can find something in a game they do not like. If it is the DM it does not appear in games, if it is players they either will find another DM or call all gamers satanists. *shrugs*
I suspect I have reached the limit of CoC, if not exceeded it (I tried not do do the later, but others will judge me on that and edit or delete as so determined).
If you are offended, then don't buy the shirt. But from the content of your post, it seems less like you are offended, and more like you are afraid of what will happen if your pastor finds out you play D&D.
A few years ago I was forced to endure a brief anti-D&D tirade from the pulpit of my church. A missionary supported by my church actually mentioned D&D as an example of how the US is tainted by Satan worship.
Did you stand up and tell the people that the game you play is not related to satanic worship at all? If you want to fight a publicity battle, the only way to do it is in public.
Show yourself off as an example of a god-loving religious devout who plays D&D. Explain how the game works and what it does. Explain why it doesn't promote satanic worship. Anytime you find someone saying otherwise, stand up and let your own voice be heard to tell the truth of the situation. Don't be afraid of the stereotype.
Show yourself off as an example of a god-loving religious devout who plays D&D. Explain how the game works and what it does. Explain why it doesn't promote satanic worship. Anytime you find someone saying otherwise, stand up and let your own voice be heard to tell the truth of the situation. Don't be afraid of the stereotype.
Play the part of the paladin man. Idiots exist everywhere, and only close-minded people diss on D&D. If your pastor wigs out on you, stand up for what you KNOW is right and true. I guess your pastor hates Vin Diesel, Conan O'Brian and many other actors... More people play D&D then the world realizes, and the more people who stand up and say they do and fight the stereotype and the lies the better.
I thought religious issues were not permitted on these forums?
How do you feel about the other shirts?
As a Christian gamer I was highly offended by the “Rock me Asmodeus” t-shirt I saw advertised at Jinx. If it was just Jinx I would not care or even be surprised but it carries the Dungeons and Dragons logo on the back. The last thing we gamers need right now with all the anti-D&D comments coming out of the McCain campaign is to have D&D associated with Satanic imagery....
1. Asmodeus is fictional. In actual Talmudic tradition, he was merely a demon and not Satan anyway.
2. The t-shirt in question is clearly spoofing 1970s-80s style rock shirts which were commonly somewhat "satanic" looking in the first place (Black Sabbath, AC/DC, etc). So it's merely a riff on a previous type of iconography, not a real "satanic" message in its own right.
3. The image is the now-humorous 1e MM art for Asmodeus, adding to the jokey nature of the shirt.
4. Aside from the small D&D logo in the back, the shirt isn't obviously a D&D shirt. Those who would recognize it as such are already in on the joke.
All in all -- don't worry about it. There are too many well-adjusted people, both religious and non-religious, playing D&D these days for anyone to really freak out over the fictional demons and devils in the game anymore.
I am also going to forward the link to Solice, the Wizards Community Manager, so that she is aware of your concerns.
I thought religious issues were not permitted on these forums?
Hmm http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php does not appear to limit discussion of such issues, as long as discussion does not
"Do not harass, bully, threaten, harm or cause discomfort for other persons, including any other members. For example:
* Use hate speech or racial, ethnic, sexist, homophobic or religious slurs
* Harass a specific person (repeated flaming, personal attacks or posting their private information)
* Troll or bait the community in general with inflammatory statements, such as ones designed to elicit a negative response from the community
* Post or otherwise disclose any personal or private information of another person, or any confidential information pertaining to a business, without consent"
At best the only thing I see here is possible "cause discomfort" and likely I did more of that then the OP.
One piece of my life advice is: "Don't get offended for other people."
Don't seek to insult them, but don't decide for them what they should and shouldn't like.
I really feel the D&D=Satan people are on the wane, and that any sort of publicity at all can only serve to highlight the fact that they don't know what they are talking about, and end up boosting sales of D&D.
Frankly, any time fundamentalists are super-upset about something in public -- a game, a novel, or an anything -- it sells really well from the free publicity, and they end up utterly undermining their original goal.
Pastor Bob would come downstairs (its where he kept the soda) and ask us how game was going and "So who's winning?", he'd always call us 'dudes'. He was a good guy.
Christianity is far from monolithic. There's always a denomination that's angry at something. See my signature on 'pleasing everyone'.
Though I will say we never played Demon: The Forsaken in the pastor's basement... that just seemed like the line.
Humorous depictions of Satan-like figures are offensive to me personally. I have the same visceral reaction to casual depictions of Satanic figures that I do when I see a swastika, or the "F" word, or the "N" word. Most Christians feel the same way. If you would be unwilling to offend with the other things on that list you should also be unwilling to offend Christians with comical representations of Satan.
Also, technically the swastika is a perfectly innocent symbol which happened to be bastardized by the nazis.
Hey the more you know.
And if you want to get technical Asmodeus isn't Satan, but a separate demon. Its worth mentioning that a large portion of Christianity doesn't even consider his existence canon. The Book of Tobit is considered canon in Roman Catholics but is considered apocryphal by most Protestant denominations.
As a Christian gamer I was highly offended by the “Rock me Asmodeus” t-shirt I saw advertised at Jinx. If it was just Jinx I would not care or even be surprised but it carries the Dungeons and Dragons logo on the back. The last thing we gamers need right now with all the anti-D&D comments coming out of the McCain campaign is to have D&D associated with Satanic imagery.
Many of my fellow Christians associate D&D with Satan worship and this sort of thing does not help with public relations. And more importantly this affects me directly. A few years ago I was forced to endure a brief anti-D&D tirade from the pulpit of my church. A missionary supported by my church actually mentioned D&D as an example of how the US is tainted by Satan worship.
To keep this in perspective you should also know that in my current campaign world I am using Asmodeus as one of the key deities of evil so I am not questioning the need to use such beings in gaming. What I am saying is that some ignorant people will misinterpret this t-shirt to imply that D&D promotes Satan worship. We desperately need to avoid such a blunder. I urge Wizards and Hasbro to re-think this decision and pull this t-shirt. Link below.
http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/dungeons_and_dragons/rock_me_asmodeus.html#bigdesign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Me_Amadeus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j-tJTT6CLQ
You're kidding, right?
(Seriously, how did this one slip by everyone else?)
Though I suppose we could have someone come in utterly offended. Because that shirt references a new wave blasphemy that mocks the genius of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.... or something.
I'm sorry, but there's no reason to bend to your whims. Many of us are irreligious, and we enjoy stuff like this. Moreover, the fact of the matter is that if something so petty offends you or others, you deserve to be offended.
If you're so concerned with being inoffensive, repeal Christmas as a national holiday. THEN we'll talk.
Many of us are irreligious, and we enjoy stuff like this.
Many of us are religious, and we enjoy stuff like this too.
As a Christian gamer I was highly offended by the “Rock me Asmodeus” t-shirt I saw advertised at Jinx. If it was just Jinx I would not care or even be surprised but it carries the Dungeons and Dragons logo on the back. The last thing we gamers need right now with all the anti-D&D comments coming out of the McCain campaign is to have D&D associated with Satanic imagery.
Many of my fellow Christians associate D&D with Satan worship and this sort of thing does not help with public relations. And more importantly this affects me directly. A few years ago I was forced to endure a brief anti-D&D tirade from the pulpit of my church. A missionary supported by my church actually mentioned D&D as an example of how the US is tainted by Satan worship.
To keep this in perspective you should also know that in my current campaign world I am using Asmodeus as one of the key deities of evil so I am not questioning the need to use such beings in gaming. What I am saying is that some ignorant people will misinterpret this t-shirt to imply that D&D promotes Satan worship. We desperately need to avoid such a blunder. I urge Wizards and Hasbro to re-think this decision and pull this t-shirt. Link below.
http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/dungeons_and_dragons/rock_me_asmodeus.html#bigdesign
I am offended by people who use their religious beliefs to censor what I, an adult, non-christian gamer, get to see, hear, taste, smell, think, or feel.
With that said, where do your rights end and mine begin? If you are in the United States, I would like you to remember that Freedom of Religion includes Satanism, Wicca, paganism, and not having any religion at all. I do find things that offend me, such as the casual use of a word that rhymes with "witch" but starts with a 'b' as a reference to women. I recognize, however, that I don't run the world and can't control how others feel about the word. The right to not be offended doesn't exist in the Constitution.
I understand your concerns about whack-jobs that think this game is somehow inherently evil, but these people will hammer away at anything that happens to be popular or enjoyable. If cloud-watching was suddenly popular with the masses, it would be seen as somehow evil and satanic by these peoples' sick and twisted logic. Comic books were going to be the downfall of the US at one point, even to being accused of being a Communist plot. "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" was blasphemy. "My Little Pony", remember that one? Yeesh! Let's at least keep their misguided witch-hunts pointed at a group that can take it... us.
We're used to the idea of being run out of town by torch-bearing, pitchfork armed masses!
Jesus saves and takes NO damage!
Just to clarify:
Humorous depictions of Satan-like figures are offensive to me personally. I have the same visceral reaction to casual depictions of Satanic figures that I do when I see a swastika, or the "F" word, or the "N" word. Most Christians feel the same way. If you would be unwilling to offend with the other things on that list you should also be unwilling to offend Christians with comical representations of Satan.
Reply With Quote
I am sorry that the Persians conquered ancient Christians and gave them the belief of Heaven and Hell.
Wait, isn't it also a reference to a song of the same name?
Also, technically the swastika is a perfectly innocent symbol which happened to be bastardized by the nazis.
Thats Rock Me Amadeus, not Asmodeus
Amadeus Wolfgang Mozart, was thought to have sold his soul to the devil due to his music, and for use of the dice in setting up the time signatures for his arrangement. But uh, I digress.
I'm Christian, and I'm more offended by the Jesus shirt.
Jesus saves and takes NO damage!
Yeah, he takes half damage, just like anyone else in his position. No favoritism at my table.
If cloud-watching was suddenly popular with the masses, it would be seen as somehow evil and satanic
Been there, done that.
"Idle hands are the devil's tools"
~Chaucer, ca. 12th century
If you really have a problem with the refernce e-mail wizards at http://wizards.custhelp.com
Yeah, he takes half damage, just like anyone else in his position. No favoritism at my table.
Wait, are we talking about Jesus 3.5 or Jesus 4.0? "Cause I'm sure Jesus 3.5 has Improved Evasion...
Thanks for pointing out the shirt.
EK
Thanks for the link, I'm ordering one right now.
Seconded! Thanks for bringing this shirt to my attention!
Personally I found it very funny. I'm a good Catholic and I think this kind of levity is what we need.
The sad thing to me here is not that someone was offended, but I'd stake good money that more then half the people here talking about how they don't care that he was offended would in fact change their tune if the person in question were of a religion like Hinduism, Muslim or something different.
Hmmm... no, I wouldn't. It's not my problem that certain people take stuff like cartoons and caricatures far too seriously.
The sad thing to me here is not that someone was offended, but I'd stake good money that more then half the people here talking about how they don't care that he was offended would in fact change their tune if the person in question were of a religion like Hinduism, Muslim or something different.
Well, if it makes you feel better, not me. I'm a big fan of the phrase 'get over yourself'.
The sad thing to me here is not that someone was offended, but I'd stake good money that more then half the people here talking about how they don't care that he was offended would in fact change their tune if the person in question were of a religion like Hinduism, Muslim or something different.
No, I've got material that goes with pretty much most belief systems and life styles. I'm even fully prepared to mock overly uptight cyborgs and Jedi should the occasion present itself.
That said, there are extremists in every religion, including Chrstians (I'm looking at you, OP) who will choose to be offended at anything if it suits their purposes. These people should be rightly ignored. I will avoid causing offence when it's something in their holy books. I will not avoid causing offence when it is something extra beyond the core values of the religion which they have chosen to be offended by.
you have to learn to be not offended by other's people's looks, clothes and stuff like that. tolerance?
it's the world outside, and it's not always coming in your colors. and as long as it's something like this that offends you, you're quite well off.
relax, dude, it's just a T-shirt. and it's not even a satan-promoting or devil-worshipping thing. it's a joke.
AKW - Christian, not only by name.
Moved to the off topic forum.
Disagree and be offended but realize that it's just words and you can choose how you respond to those words.
Most Christians feel the same way.
I doubt this. Some, sure. But there's people that dance with rattlesnakes, too, and I don't give them any credit, either. Look, it's a picture. That's it. Irrational fear - which is exactly what this is - harkens back to the days of believing you'd lose your soul if someone captured your image with a camera. It's a t-shirt. Last I checked, t-shirts aren't high up on Satan's list of evil implements. Relax.
That said, let's stop with the intentionally hurtful stuff like telling the OP that we're gonna go out and buy the shirt. That's just trying to upset the guy and that ain't right. If you want him to be tolerant of your beliefs you should award him the same courtesy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Me_Amadeus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j-tJTT6CLQ
You're kidding, right?
(Seriously, how did this one slip by everyone else?)
I didn't. We are all aware that is the joke the shirt is making.
No, I've got material that goes with pretty much most belief systems and life styles. I'm even fully prepared to mock overly uptight cyborgs and Jedi should the occasion present itself.
I had a split second where I thought "not like he'll be able to do that anytime soon".
Then I remembered: we've got cyborgs already (prosthetic limbs, hearing aids, etc.).
And there are people in, at least Britain, registered as Jedi for their official religion.
There's probably a half a dozen people somewhere who actually worship the God Emporer of Man from Warhammer 40,000.
Especially since I just postulated there was.
I had a split second where I thought "not like he'll be able to do that anytime soon".
Then I remembered: we've got cyborgs already (prosthetic limbs, hearing aids, etc.).
And there are people in, at least Britain, registered as Jedi for their official religion.
There's probably a half a dozen people somewhere who actually worship the God Emporer of Man from Warhammer 40,000.
Especially since I just postulated there was.
I believe that enough people in Australia answered "Jedi Knight" in one of their censuses for it to be a government recognized religion. I don't have link to that, though, it's something I heard years ago.
I've met a couple Jedi in real life. Seemed pretty down to earth, though I don't know if they were representative. One of them didn't even like Star Wars, he was just treating it as a less restrictive form of Buddhism, basically.
Yes we're all aware of the song Rock me Amadeus, but really it has little to do with why he's offended, so it wasn't brought up.
Though I suppose we could have someone come in utterly offended. Because that shirt references a new wave blasphemy that mocks the genius of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.... or something.
Not to mention the genius of Falco. OMG the tragedy.
Seriously, as a Christian, I am not reall offended at all, I actualy had a good chuckle when I saw the shirt the other day. Not that I'm going to add this particular shirt to my collection of Jinx D&D shirts, but it's really not a big issue.
As a Christian gamer I was highly offended by the “Rock me Asmodeus” t-shirt I saw advertised at Jinx. If it was just Jinx I would not care or even be surprised but it carries the Dungeons and Dragons logo on the back. The last thing we gamers need right now with all the anti-D&D comments coming out of the McCain campaign is to have D&D associated with Satanic imagery.
Many of my fellow Christians associate D&D with Satan worship and this sort of thing does not help with public relations. And more importantly this affects me directly. A few years ago I was forced to endure a brief anti-D&D tirade from the pulpit of my church. A missionary supported by my church actually mentioned D&D as an example of how the US is tainted by Satan worship.
To keep this in perspective you should also know that in my current campaign world I am using Asmodeus as one of the key deities of evil so I am not questioning the need to use such beings in gaming. What I am saying is that some ignorant people will misinterpret this t-shirt to imply that D&D promotes Satan worship. We desperately need to avoid such a blunder. I urge Wizards and Hasbro to re-think this decision and pull this t-shirt. Link below.
http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/dungeons_and_dragons/rock_me_asmodeus.html#bigdesign
As a christian you should be used to anti-everything speeches from your church by now, that said demons and devils are a part of D&D as much as gods and angels so if someone wishes to put out shirts with either that's called free expression (something I know isn't big with some groups).
Further more I fail to see the issue christians seem to have with demons and devils and believe it must come from a very simple minded view of faith.
Demons and devils exist in the christian religion as necessary antagonists which are ultimately created (or allowed to exist as they are) by god as part of the divine plan, many of the most uplifting and ultimately redeeming acts of human kind presented in the bible would not be possible without them.
In other words, when someone complains about satin and D&D ask them "is the devil not also doing gods will?"
I believe that enough people in Australia answered "Jedi Knight" in one of their censuses for it to be a government recognized religion. I don't have link to that, though, it's something I heard years ago.
Not quite. That was the whole basis for the "Jedi as religion" thing, the belief that if enough people listed it as their religion on the national census that it would be officially recognized by the government. This is not the case, however, and their efforts, though humorous, did not actually achieve their stated goal.
Not quite. That was the whole basis for the "Jedi as religion" thing, the belief that if enough people listed it as their religion on the national census that it would be officially recognized by the government. This is not the case, however, and their efforts, though humorous, did not actually achieve their stated goal.
One day...One day...
Not quite. That was the whole basis for the "Jedi as religion" thing, the belief that if enough people listed it as their religion on the national census that it would be officially recognized by the government. This is not the case, however, and their efforts, though humorous, did not actually achieve their stated goal.
Damn, I was hoaxed by Australia.
Now I need a rock to hide under.
Damn, I was hoaxed by Australia.
Now I need a rock to hide under.
*Glances around, lifts up obviously fake rock*
Psst. Here. Before they see you.
Damn, I was hoaxed by Australia.
Now I need a rock to hide under.
Just don't make it Ayers Rock. You will have to use the dual name.
*Glances around, lifts up obviously fake rock*
Psst. Here. Before they see you.
*looks at rock, then down at self*
I think we're going to need a bigger one, maybe;
Just don't make it Ayers Rock. You will have to use the dual name.
That one's fake too? I always kind of figured, but to have it confirmed like this...
At least Australia still has the Barrier Reef and dingoes.
*looks at rock, then down at self*
I think we're going to need a bigger one, maybe;
That one's fake too? I always kind of figured, but to have it confirmed like this...
At least Australia still has the Barrier Reef and dingoes.
Stingrays too.
I am offended by people who use their religious beliefs to censor what I, an adult, non-christian gamer, get to see, hear, taste, smell, think, or feel.
With that said, where do your rights end and mine begin? If you are in the United States, I would like you to remember that Freedom of Religion includes Satanism, Wicca, paganism, and not having any religion at all. I do find things that offend me, such as the casual use of a word that rhymes with "witch" but starts with a 'b' as a reference to women. I recognize, however, that I don't run the world and can't control how others feel about the word. The right to not be offended doesn't exist in the Constitution.
I understand your concerns about whack-jobs that think this game is somehow inherently evil, but these people will hammer away at anything that happens to be popular or enjoyable. If cloud-watching was suddenly popular with the masses, it would be seen as somehow evil and satanic by these peoples' sick and twisted logic. Comic books were going to be the downfall of the US at one point, even to being accused of being a Communist plot. "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" was blasphemy. "My Little Pony", remember that one? Yeesh! Let's at least keep their misguided witch-hunts pointed at a group that can take it... us.
We're used to the idea of being run out of town by torch-bearing, pitchfork armed masses!
This. Most especially the part where people use their religious beliefs to censor what those outside of their religion get to see, hear, do, etc.
No, I've got material that goes with pretty much most belief systems and life styles. I'm even fully prepared to mock overly uptight cyborgs and Jedi should the occasion present itself.
and This.
both QFT.
Seriously, running from pitch-forked armed masses since '78.
Stingrays too.
Yep, they've got those as well.
If the Discovery channel is to be believed, half the population consists of smoking hot aquatic zoologists. So they've got that going for them, even if the other half seems to be constantly poking gators with sticks.
Yep, they've got those as well.
If the Discovery channel is to be believed, half the population consists of smoking hot aquatic zoologists. So they've got that going for them, even if the other half seems to be constantly poking gators with sticks.
That's an advantage - lots of hot aquatic zoologists needing comfort after their boyfriend poked a gator with a stick too many...
Love the Jesus shirt and love this Asmodeus shirt. I'm going to get both cuz they are hilarious. Was not aware of the Rock me Asmodeus shirt and now can't get the song outta my head.
Thanks for pointing out the shirt.
I wonder if there are lyrics to the Rock Me Asmodeus song.
.....but life teachs you sometimes you must see the things philosophically.
Perhaps that shirt has bad taste, is by bad-mannered ones, but we have to suffer very worse things.... very worse. I could give some examples of cover of Spanish satiric magazine "El Jueves" (= The Thursday) wich are true anti-Catholic poison/venom.
Perhaps the shirt about rock me Asmodeus is stupy, but we, the Christians, have more important matters wich need to be solved.
KICK ASS!
Gots ta get my shirt on!
(orders shirt)
I grew out of it
I still have some of them - sadly, they are probably too rude to post here
I think i'm now far too respectable and middle-class to wear them now
I went through a phaze of wearing offensive t-shirts in about 2001/2002
I grew out of it
I still have some of them - sadly, they are probably too rude to post here
I think i'm now far too respectable and middle-class to wear them now
I think I can understand you, but from a different angle. I've been a "good boy" most of my live, and recently having finished my bachelor thesis, I hope to get a bit badder once I got a good job. I mean, I basically have a several KB large checklist of stuff from www.thinkgeek.com and www.jinx.com I just need to have.
Also, if people are offended by the "Rock me, Asmodeus" tshirt, they better not look at
And Another good one...
Yeah, he takes half damage, just like anyone else in his position. No favoritism at my table.
What if he has evasion and mettle as special abilities?
http://www.pvpstuff.com/aleandwhsh.html
(The original version, prior to it being only available through pVp.)
I remember wearing it to GenCon 2005. What a great time...
As a Grognard, I'm am greatly and deeply offended by the use of "false editions". If the back of the shirt used a Dungeons & Dragons logo, from a real D&D game, like OD&D, basic D&D, or 1e AD&D (see below), then it would all be kosher (not to mention the use of a logo that has more of a feel from the days when D&D was truly feared by book-thumpers). But no, they had to go with the logo of some half-ass WoW-sim that passing itself off as a Dungeons & Dragons game.
I am not the slightest bit offended that this thread is causing people to buy the shirt. I wanted to start a discussion of the issue in order to let non-Christian gamers (and especially Hasbro) know that this sort of product causes discomfort for Christians (BTW it is a licensed item check out the new 4e logo). Buy all you want just please give careful consideration to what I am saying.
Know me:
I am a former atheist and I have been a gamer significantly longer than I have been a Christian. I have also been a DM for almost 30 years. I have been to GenCon and I have had the honor of having been at an event featuring the late great Gary Gygax. I have also been an usher at my local church, I have attended Promise Keeper events, and I have even worked as a missionary for short periods of time. I have one foot in each world and I am keenly aware of the misunderstandings that separate the two groups.
What I want you to understand:
Wearing t-shirts like "Rock me Asmodeus" will send a very negative impression to Christians. Such misunderstandings cause our hobby to be increasingly marginalized (ie McCain vs D&D). Keep in mind not that not very many years ago D&D was banned in a few communities around our country. We all need to be ambassadors for the RPG sub-culture. Gamers have an obligation to those who went before us to make sure the hobby survives for those that follow behind. To coin a cliché; we need to build bridges not fences.
Curiously, I am a former Roman Catholic turned atheist. Actually, I describe myself as "not among the faithful", because when you say "atheist", everyone assumes you also mean "liberal", and I am one of those Pro-McCain Dungeons & Dragons people. We don't live in our mother's basements. We own our own homes. We rent out the basement to the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd. We may have our political differences, but D&D is D&D.
We're weirdos, geeks, nerds, and outcasts and damned proud of it. Someone somewhere is going to hate us, berate us and try to decimate us no matter what. We may as well control who that is. (Darn! My drow avatar is taking over again!)
If it offends you, pass it by. It isn't hurting anyone. It isn't giving us an image we don't already have, and the people who gave us that image aren't going to change their minds one iota just because we don't wear a certain style of t-shirt.
I think I can understand you, but from a different angle. I've been a "good boy" most of my live, and recently having finished my bachelor thesis, I hope to get a bit badder once I got a good job. I mean, I basically have a several KB large checklist of stuff from www.thinkgeek.com and www.jinx.com I just need to have.
Also, if people are offended by the "Rock me, Asmodeus" tshirt, they better not look at
*from a Biblical sense, not D&D-sense.
Somehow I managed to make it through a reverend grandfather and end up atheist.
I think the shirt has the perfect humor on it. Just enough to offend people's sensibilities without being seen as juvenile by the rest of the world.
That and Asmodeus Rocks.
In my reality, the bible teaches that it's before the world began so... I dunno. It's kind of like pulling a string out of a thread and seeing how far it goes. Maybe that's a stupid analogy. I never considered my life too akin to the hard-core christianism, until I was driven into paranoia, a phase in the 12th grade after I attended a school christian gathering. It was conducted very differently, and it probably would have been way better in retrospect (at least from my selfish perspective) if I stayed away.
It really racked my social life (not 'my' church, but the school Christian club), and the thing is before that I had a lot of fun with the game and had some bonding with friends, which grew progressively better and deeper all whilst playing the game as a DM(sometimes they DM'ed). So I really ran the show most of the time.
Heh, I even took a personality test in high school, and it said I met the roll of an entertainer (it seemed after reading Tolkien (the movies were just coming out) I had found a great deal of inspiration, even one of my short stories had to be 'checked' for plagiarism(it was better then Tolkien, teacher said). We all had different religious backgrounds to varying degrees, so we understood ourselves and the social environments we lived in, and subsequently others opinions of the game and other 'religious' issues, and basically life and each other in general. So psycho-therapeutically we were set to play.
But after that, we pretty much never played consistently(college years, starting 2005). I mean, we tried(I tried harder =P) And once my friend dropped out (the primary player, pretty much) we never played (as we played before) till this day.
I tried to fill the gap of friendship by contributing to a video game modification project in the game Oblivion. (I had done so previously with other games)
Recently however, I had another chance to get a game going. This was before 4th came out, last year sometime. 3.5 was just too complicated for everyone new to understand, and the night was terrible (didn't even get to play), and I didn't have the deep emotional or spiritual energy i used to find with the game to really get it going because I thought I had reached my limit (in retrospect my mind wasn't probably in the best of conditions, due to the fact that I hadn't been thinking the way I had in the past).
I wouldn't mind trying it again now, but the thought of it feels very burdensome to my heart. Furthermore, and forgive my french, it's too ****ing hard for me to make new friends without me being fake and blah blah blah.
It was fun before. To try to do it now is like trying to raise barn of dead animals. I just don't have the capability like I used to have. Or maybe others lost confidence in me as a person enough to not care. Either way, I just sort of became 'fully politically immersed' into the entire idea of the election after that, and didn't play anymore (I had done so on the chat, a lot (even returning this year to play 4th online (worst experience ever! because it was online, not in person you will say to me, and you're probably right, but still)).
Yeah, I usually tried to shrug off the feelings I got from these situations, but at the same time I felt mentally astute enough to sort of disown them, or prove them wrong. Not that in the sense of them being offended is wrong, but the after effects of the whole religious slew of *clears throat, and tries to sound more religiously correct* 'poop' things because generally they were negative feelings.
Also, the church where we gathered considered the entire idea of Jesus differently then most groups. For example, Jesus was a man who rebuked religious officials who tried to sway people against him, and although he was not successful at saving himself (I don't think it was intention to), he certainly had many deep and subverting points which resonated amongst the people then (and now). Those people believed in him because he was right for rebuking the self-righteous (guess it kinda goes with his character =P (not to trivialize or anything)).
It then, is my supposition (and this includes the stuff that went on with the McCain campaign dood) that the paranoia which exists of not being religious enough to Jesus hits really close in the hearts of people, so they often lash out with religious anger (whether it be justified or not, anger is anger) against others. I guess it's up to us to judge for us christianos whether others are righteous in that anger (in the light of the meaning of God's word to us personally) or if it isn't. I dunno. Everyone has reasons which precede their actions, this isn't any different.
I guess if I have any advice to you man, it's just to be genuine about it, 'Jesus-ly Human', even. And not because wizards of the coast is a 'genuinely all American inspired product' (which it is and therefore should be accepted into the hearts of the christian social media.) So you don't 'have to' believe that all these things go 'hand in hand'(though they might). Just keep your faith and love and ideals inside of your heart, and that is enough.
Don't let people be-rail you over and over with comments of Satanism. We know that God isn't about that, because he never condemns us unless it's His doing, not to prove how savvy your church is with politics or whatever. Don't give others the ground to, and if you 'have to' keep it a secret. If hell is what dungeons and dragons is from and the demons wrote the text while Lucifer watched over them saying things like "Hah, this'll really make people hate God and do evil! Yes, Do my bidding, nerds!" then I think they probably ****ed up in their reasoning a bit because I don't see many satanic circles getting started for the sole purpose of dungeons and dragons.
Last, and probably the most rewarding part of my little sermon on the mount of the fourm (tee hee). Remember that as a Christian you are not only given salvation, but ultimately authority by God to rule over the world and sequentially demons and Satan. So exercise 'spiritual authority' if you must. just don't do in the middle of a game, when you're playing, or you'll freak out the players. (unless you channel it through a cleric, which is kinda funny ...sometimes).
"can make you live forever"
Well I have been convinced by the non-believing D&D players. I for one will waste no more of my time trying to live in a fantasy world where people are raised from the dead....
Oh wait
Just to clarify:
Humorous depictions of Satan-like figures are offensive to me personally. I have the same visceral reaction to casual depictions of Satanic figures that I do when I see a swastika, or the "F" word, or the "N" word. Most Christians feel the same way. If you would be unwilling to offend with the other things on that list you should also be unwilling to offend Christians with comical representations of Satan.
I find the "N" word and the Swastika offensive too.
I am ambivalent about the "F" word and find religion (of any creed) at best humorous and at worse pugnacious - the fact i feel this way will no doubt offend some people.
But I find Censorship even more offensive than any of these things.
Let me make myself clear if someone wants to prance around with an N word t-shirt covered by swastika, offended tho I am I would do nothing to prevent that person from purchasing or displaying thier ideaology...The worst thing the modern german state did was ban the display of Nazi symbology the ugliness of those ideas should be out in full view for everyone to scrutinise...
the shirt is funny and a PERFECT play on words.
if you take Asmodeus personally as a threat to your faith you should not be playing dnd in the first place.
How can you not justify the shirt while justifying him in game?
are you one of those guys who wont play a cleric because they worship false deities?
i had a player like that once and i found it kinda odd.
if you take Asmodeus personally as a threat to your faith you should not be playing dnd in the first place.
How can you not justify the shirt while justifying him in game?
Neither he nor anyone else has to justify Asmodeus in game. That's the beauty about D&D, you don't have to use anything in the game if you don't want to. Heck, one can restrict classes to non-magical martial/striker types, have armies full of 'em with aristocrats running things.. make a nice, little war game, I suppose.
I find...the Swastika offensive too.
Your hatred of Buddhism if highly offensive.
I'm okay with the shirt, as long as it doesn't lure Falco out of retirement to record a cover of his own song.
What's wrong with Al Yankovic?
What's wrong with Al Yankovic?
If Weird Al wants to stomp on Falco again, that's fine. Just so long as Falco himself remains in mothballs.
Anyway, I'm afraid that "Rock Me Amadeus" reference on the shirt isn't coming across to everyone. Of course, it is 23 years old and all.
EDIT: Turns out that Falco died earlier this year. So, I retract my earlier statements. It would now be pretty awesome if he covered "Rock Me Amadeus."
I'm good.
One of the beautiflu things about consumerism? You don't have to buy it if you don't like it.
Something more beautiful: There are no more christians in the lion pits.
Well... Maybe a few but they want to be there.
[...] EDIT: Turns out that Falco died earlier this year. So, I retract my earlier statements. It would now be pretty awesome if he covered "Rock Me Amadeus."
Are you sure you're talking about the right "Falco"? Johann Hölzel died 1998: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falco_(musician)
Hmm. I must have got the wrong "8". Either way, it would be an awesome cover.
If Weird Al wants to stomp on Falco again, that's fine. Just so long as Falco himself remains in mothballs.
Why would Al want to stomp on Falco? Unless you mean a sexual reference here. (Eww!)
I think the shirt is great, I don't see how it is a bad sign to christians about our hobby. The only problem I foresee is licensing issues to the makers, not a moral outrage or upset. I like seeing shirts like this that take a humorous approach to a hobby, be it fishing or RPing.
We should say no to the '(un)reasonable accomodations'. The Grande Noirceur is gone.
To further clarify:
What I want you to understand:
Wearing t-shirts like "Rock me Asmodeus" will send a very negative impression to Christians. Such misunderstandings cause our hobby to be increasingly marginalized (ie McCain vs D&D). Keep in mind not that not very many years ago D&D was banned in a few communities around our country. We all need to be ambassadors for the RPG sub-culture. Gamers have an obligation to those who went before us to make sure the hobby survives for those that follow behind. To coin a cliché; we need to build bridges not fences.
I want to be perfectly clear when I say this: there is nothing wrong with being offended by this shirt, but when someone classifies you as a non-Christian or a Satanist or whatever only because of the shirt on your back, they are not properly representing Christ.
Our risen savior spoke to a Samaritan woman at a well, breaking cultural and societal norms to give his message to those who needed it. He was accompanied throughout his ministry by fisherman and tax collectors, people looked down on or not liked by the masses. He didn't care who a person was, or what they did, he cared about their soul. So, for someone to presume that you're evil or bad or what-have-you because of the clothes you wear is the exact oppisite of what Christ would do or want.
Additionally, the shirts act as excellent ice breakers. Assume someone who doesn't know Christ but plays D&D sees you: you have already estabilshed a commonality with him that will aid your ministry. If someone who calls themself a Christian flys off the handle because of your shirt, wait until they're done and begin to give them the true message of Jesus, who (and I believe this with every part of my being) wouldn't have a single problem with D&D.
I counter your cliche with a phrase that I cannot credit because I have long since forgotten where said credit should go: "Tear down your cross and build a bridge".
I want to be perfectly clear when I say this: there is nothing wrong with being offended by this shirt, but when someone classifies you as a non-Christian or a Satanist or whatever only because of the shirt on your back, they are not properly representing Christ.
Our risen savior spoke to a Samaritan woman at a well, breaking cultural and societal norms to give his message to those who needed it. He was accompanied throughout his ministry by fisherman and tax collectors, people looked down on or not liked by the masses. He didn't care who a person was, or what they did, he cared about their soul. So, for someone to presume that you're evil or bad or what-have-you because of the clothes you wear is the exact oppisite of what Christ would do or want.
Additionally, the shirts act as excellent ice breakers. Assume someone who doesn't know Christ but plays D&D sees you: you have already estabilshed a commonality with him that will aid your ministry. If someone who calls themself a Christian flys off the handle because of your shirt, wait until they're done and begin to give them the true message of Jesus, who (and I believe this with every part of my being) wouldn't have a single problem with D&D.
I counter your cliche with a phrase that I cannot credit because I have long since forgotten where said credit should go: "Tear down your cross and build a bridge".
Your savior also called that Samaritan woman a "dog". As for "not property representing Christ", what is the "proper" representation? Many people who consider themselves "proper Christians" would try to stone Christian who played D&D if they thought they could get away from it. We even have Jesus himself saying to bring those who don't accept him before him and to kill them (the parable of the ten minas, for those of you who are unfamiliar with your Bibles).
Your savior also called that Samaritan woman a "dog".
Where do you find this? I do not see it in my reading of the text.
As for "not property representing Christ", what is the "proper" representation? Many people who consider themselves "proper Christians" would try to stone Christian who played D&D if they thought they could get away from it.
A proper Christan is one who cares about someone's soul. D&D has not now, nor has it ever been a sinful game. Those who consider it to be such are unfamiliar with the life skills that it provides, and it's use as a tool for evangelism. There have been several instances in which I have used D&D as a tool for my ministry.
While Biblical love isn't without a backbone, it does promote loving people who are different than you. Stoning anyone is a sin, plain and simple, and while I don't believe that you meant a literal stoning, even the desire to do so is wrong.
We even have Jesus himself saying to bring those who don't accept him before him and to kill them (the parable of the ten minas, for those of you who are unfamiliar with your Bibles).
The instance in which he says this is at the end of that parable, which means that it isn't literal. I said above that Biblical love isn't without a backbone. God loves all man, but only takes those who love Him (those who follow His word) into heaven with Him. So, those "who did not want me to reign over them" (Luke 19:27) are those have rejected the will of God.
Does the average parishioner, not a D&D player or fantasy buff rather just a normal everyday workin' type really know who the heck Asmodeus even is? I mean, they know that Lucifer is Satan, but do they know of the other Lords of the 9 Hells? I think most just generally look at it in terms of God/Jebus/Devil.
I mean really, if you went out an polled 25 average folks on the street if they knew who Asmodeus is do you think they'd be able to tell you?
Maybe all this worry is for nothing?
On a side note, I still find it hilarious that the BBEG of Christianity is called Lightbearer.
I'd never heard the name Asmodeus until I started playing D&D some ten years ago. Not even then actually, I think it was well into 3E before it first came up... and pretty much up until this thread I thought it was just a D&D name so they wouldn't need to call him Satan or Lucifer.
On a side note, I still find it hilarious that the BBEG of Christianity is called Lightbearer.
It's called sad irony, and a warning that evil isn't always darkness with spikes. ;)
Thanks for the link, I'm ordering one right now.
El Oh El.
Like this morning...
So respectfully shut up.
Well I'm offended when your church wakes me up in the morning and tells me my friends are going to hell for being gay....
Like this morning...
So respectfully shut up.
When did my church wake you up?
Asmodai or Asmodeus is a demon mostly known from the deuterocanonical Book of Tobit. The demon is also mentioned in some Talmudic legends, for instance, in the story of the construction of the Temple of Solomon. He is supposed to be the King of the Nine Hells.
Christianity is built on many other religions...so it is in their right to be offended by everything. Comical? Yes.
LOL they burrowed beliefs from pagans...and then later turned around and persecuted pagans for their heretical beliefs.
The sad thing to me here is not that someone was offended, but I'd stake good money that more then half the people here talking about how they don't care that he was offended would in fact change their tune if the person in question were of a religion like Hinduism, Muslim or something different.
2nd
I believe it is better to have an idea than a belief...
I honestly do not think that people who have commented would change their tune regardless of what religion the person was because no matter what way you look at it...being offended by a "Rock me Asmodeus" shirt is silly.
Asmodeus is a name of the demon Asmodai.
Asmodai or Asmodeus is a demon mostly known from the deuterocanonical Book of Tobit. The demon is also mentioned in some Talmudic legends, for instance, in the story of the construction of the Temple of Solomon. He is supposed to be the King of the Nine Hells.
Christianity is built on many other religions...so it is in their right to be offended by everything. Comical? Yes.
LOL they burrowed beliefs from pagans...and then later turned around and persecuted pagans for their heretical beliefs.
In your estimation we did. I would beg to differ, but I suppose that's beyond the point...
Incidentally, yeah, this does seem pretty silly overall.
In your estimation we did. I would beg to differ, but I suppose that's beyond the point...
Incidentally, yeah, this does seem pretty silly overall.
It is not my estimation, just historical fact. There are some more modern sects of Christianity that rejected some of these practices...but irregardless they were there before the split...and they are still present in the vast majority.
It is not my estimation, just historical fact. There are some more modern sects of Christianity that rejected some of these practices...but irregardless they were there before the split...and they are still present in the vast majority.
What historical fact? Christianity has documentation back to practically the conception date. It didn't assemble itself over hundreds of years; it suddently "sprang up" out of Judaism. Remember, we've got manuscripts back to within a hundred years or so of the writing of the New Testament. Thousands of documents, spread over centuries; all of them consistent with each other, within the shared section (many are missing sections), over that spread of time, barring things like a missing article or such. The body of documentation also works together to present a consistent face of content and meaning.
But clearly, yeah, it's all just a jumble.
What historical fact? Christianity has documentation back to practically the conception date. It didn't assemble itself over hundreds of years; it suddently "sprang up" out of Judaism. Remember, we've got manuscripts back to within a hundred years or so of the writing of the New Testament. Thousands of documents, spread over centuries; all of them consistent with each other, within the shared section (many are missing sections), over that spread of time, barring things like a missing article or such. The body of documentation also works together to present a consistent face of content and meaning.
But clearly, yeah, it's all just a jumble.
Texts that have been found that predate texts of Christianity/Judaism but are apart of other belief systems and become assimilated.
The first written account we have of "Noah and the Flood" are not from the works of Judaism.
One example...Winter Solstice...some more would be various symbolism's surrounding Jesus, which were taken from earlier beliefs...such as Adonis and other sorts of figures in various works...
When you really start looking at it there is a lot of intermingling...and even looking at belief sets from far away places there is a lot of parallels, which I find interesting.
"good" christians shouldn't play D&D. They should donate that money and time to their church, to further the work of their god.
Like I said, conservative, fundamentalist, point of view. It's six days of work, one day of rest, no days of pretending to be a fantastic (read: made up, fictional, fake) being in another world that does not worship, nor even acknowledge, the christian god, but makes heavy use of the christian mythology when it comes to evils.
Anyway, the point is, who cares? So some D&D shirt has a figure from hebrew mythology on it? I mean, if you're offended, don't buy/wear the shirt. If you're not offended, then quit crying.
"good" christians shouldn't play D&D.
*taken aback*
I'm sorry. What did you just say?
*taken aback*
I'm sorry. What did you just say?
More than four words and an acronym. Quote chapters, not verses.
More than four words and an acronym.
Yes, that is quite a grammatical writing achievement, even for you. :P
I'm just wondering where you got that statement from.
Yes, that is quite a grammatical writing achievement, even for you. :P
I'm just wondering where you got that statement from.
Neat little book I read through a few times.
Neat little book I read through a few times.
I don't recall "D&D" being mentioned there. Want to quote the chapter and verse (in the Catholic Bible, not the KJ version)?
I don't recall "D&D" being mentioned there. Want to quote the chapter and verse (in the Catholic Bible, not the KJ version)?
Nope. The fact that D&D isn't in a book that's considered to be the measuring tool by which to live your life should say all you need to know.
Anyway, since this is veering into offensive territory, I'm going to bow out. Mind you, I'm not exactly what you'd call christian, so, yeah...
Anyway, since this is veering into offensive territory, I'm going to bow out.
Consider this my end-message to this little discussion.
Consider this my end-message to this little discussion.
I would happily continue the discussion in PMs, or another, non-public-forum venue, provided the following:
1) It's understood this is only a recreational discussion. Nobody's trying to actually convince the other to change their point of view.
2) It's kept civil. I don't respond well to intellectual terrorism
3) It's only for the sake of argument. I'm not a christian, but I'll happily take the pro-god stance, for the sake of argument.
But as far as the whole D&D is Satan thing is concerned, I agree with whoever said that the battle won't be won by whining here, you have to go to the root of the problem, not something that might or might not exacerbate it. Evangelize in support of D&D. Be positive. Stand up, be heard by others, and be a model in your community. It's easy to say someone is evil when they spend all their time in a basement rolling dice. But if that's what you do one night a week, and the rest of your time is spent pulling babies from burning buildings and stopping puppy-kickers, you make it that much more difficult for the "D&D is Satan" accusations to stick.