As a father, I winced every time the f'word was used.
This is a link any child can use.
Please KEEP the podcasts but edit or beep out the language.
(I'm not a prude, and my sons have heard it all before, but Wizards is marketing this new version in all new markets, some of them reaching young gamers. Can you imagine Mom or Dad's reaction when they hear that coming from the speakers?)
At the very least - give it a mature rating!
As an older player, I thought the podcast was funny and entertaining.
As a father, I winced every time the f'word was used.
This is a link any child can use.
Please KEEP the podcasts but edit or beep out the language.
(I'm not a prude, and my sons have heard it all before, but Wizards is marketing this new version in all new markets, some of them reaching young gamers. Can you imagine Mom or Dad's reaction when they hear that coming from the speakers?)
At the very least - give it a mature rating!
<....> yeah! Quoted for the Mother <....>ing truth! Cept the top part, I hate everything about 4e.
I agree with you, but there is a warning saying there is language used that is unsavory to some. However, in this day and age, I hear those words coming out of the mouths of kids who have not yet lost all their baby teeth.
I missed the warning, even though I went back and looked. Still, we shouldn't hear it from babes...not those words. Just because some do, doesn't mean we should use them in our games advertising.
(Even beeps are bleeps would be better)
I want more children to play - I think it's a great excercise of the mind, fun and can help children and students overcome some personality issues. (become less introverted, for example). I don't want those children finding this stuff.
But yeah, I at least knew what to expect. . . it is the Penny Arcade guys. Their entire comic is scatalogical humor mixed with snide commentary on the gaming industry.
I missed the warning, even though I went back and looked. Still, we shouldn't hear it from babes...not those words. Just because some do, doesn't mean we should use them in our games advertising.
(Even beeps are bleeps would be better)
I want more children to play - I think it's a great excercise of the mind, fun and can help children and students overcome some personality issues. (become less introverted, for example). I don't want those children finding this stuff.
O, I never intended it to mean there should be swearing, and since there is it should be tagged and on the site, the font on the warning should be bigger.
(though maybe it's because I love PA but seeing "Penny Arcade" in the name made me go 'ok, bet there will be sex jokes and/or swearing)
Honestly, I have never listened to a Wizards podcast and only interested in this one since you mentioned it contains offensive material? Funny how complaints work ...
Can someone link said offensive podcast?
Honestly, I have never listened to a Wizards podcast and only interested in this one since you mentioned it contains offensive material? Funny how complaints work ...
it's not really pure Wizards, it's a podcast of Penny Arcade and PvP (two web comics) people doing a game of 4th ed, gonna be put out in parts once a week.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080530&authentic=true
I agree with you, but there is a warning saying there is language used that is unsavory to some. However, in this day and age, I hear those words coming out of the mouths of kids who have not yet lost all their baby teeth.
"This day and age" he says. C'mon, man. I don't know about you but I cursed at traffic when I was pre-toddler, soon after learning to talk. I was mimicking my father. My mother thought it was funny, my father was a bit uptight about it.
The putz.
It's like bringing Samuel L Jackson in and making him say 'melon farmer' or 'mister falcon', or getting a supermodel in an only showing pictures of her hands.
All I want is the warning to be bigger and in red. Otherwise it's fine. Or perhaps a warning at the beginning of the file.
I agree. I didn't see the warning and was a bit shocked to heat the f-word used so liberally.
Not that I care, but for those in situations like the OP and children who might download it, I think a clear warning would be courtesy.
In 40 minutes, it comes twice.
I was really glad that it wasn't censored. Censorship of language is detrimental to our society with zero benefit, in my experience.
Quoted for the mother-****ing truth.
I had no trouble seeing the warning before I downloaded it. I also thought it was rather tame, especially for Penny Arcade (I think I was halfway through before the first expletive was used). If you find words offensive that aren't meant (and most of the time aren't taken) in a derogatory manner towards you or your fellow human beings, I'd suggest you simply take more care when reading stuff on the internet. The warning was there for all to see.
It's like bringing Samuel L Jackson in and making him say 'melon farmer' or 'mister falcon'
I am sick and tired of these melon farmer snakes on this mister falcon plane!
Maybe I'm just jaded, but I'll have to go back and re-listen to the podcast 'cause I didn't even notice any cursing.
Did it take place some time shortly after Gabe named his character? I might have been laughing too hard to catch it.
I was really glad that it wasn't censored. Censorship of language is detrimental to our society with zero benefit, in my experience.
*GUFFAW* Oh yeah, throwing around the f-word really helps us grow as a society.
You want society to grow? How about encouraging people to learn how to string together a proper sentence, rather then throwing in the f-word half the time in order to cover for the fact that they've got a mediocre vocabulary?*GUFFAW* Oh yeah, throwing around the f-word really helps us grow as a society.
QFT
This podcast may contain spoilers for the Keep on the Shadowfell campaign, if you want to play that campaign blindly, then you may not want to listen. Contains some coarse language.
Now everybody is happy.
QFT
I think you mean "QFFT" ;)
Children using such language simply show a lack of parental supervision, care, and discipline.
Sure, children will curse, but makes them ugly when heard by adults. I told my son, who is 10, that if he feels like he needs to curse, best to do it around his friends (peers) so as not to look ugly.
Don't mind that the language is there, but WotC are trying to be 'family friendly', so a warning at least would be more fitting with the image they're trying to put out.
Children using such language simply show a lack of parental supervision, care, and discipline.
Or he has parents who realize that random syllables aren't somehow going to hurt anyone. I am always amazed at how the words ****, **** and **** are oh so terrible (note: I do not include ****-off, *****, **** or ****** in this list as these are often directed at someone, whereas the words in my harmless list aren't).
I wonder if anyone will be able to discern what I mean?
Poor kid probably never gets to play in the dirt or do anything that's fun for kids to do.
Or he has parents who realize that random syllables aren't somehow going to hurt anyone. I am always amazed at how the words ****, **** and **** are oh so terrible (note: I do not include ****-off, *****, **** or ****** in this list as these are often directed at someone, whereas the words in my harmless list aren't).
I wonder if anyone will be able to discern what I mean?
I didn't say the words hurt anyone (obviously you don't know me very well;) )
I simply said that when kids curse it makes them look ugly... and gives a bad impression of the parents.
If that is your and your families lifestyle, then good luck... but it isn't me and my familys lifestyle.
Gabe is a kind of emotional person who is just focused on expression most times, but Tycho looks up new words like dwarf looks for gold.
Wait, are people saying that -Tycho- has a poor vocabulary?
Gabe is a kind of emotional person who is just focused on expression most times, but Tycho looks up new words like dwarf looks for gold.
Yea that's what bugs me about the morally superior 'oh, using 'foul words' means you're clearly a mouth breathing ape who talks through grunts and clicks'. Listen to these guys on a normal podcast, they curse alot yea, but they're very verbose and well-spoken; but there are people who assume 'oh they said 'the f-word', clearly they're stupid!'
Also, really, if your kids are swearing it means YOU haven't tought them not to in public, not because some man on a speaker said it.
*sigh*
Never said I was superior or others are apes...but if you feel that way and the shoe fits...
And I try and teach my kids never to swear... but I am also a realist and know they will.
Umm, never called you out, never even said you were teaching your kids to swear....
All I said was that if someone who's so appaled by foul language hears their child say it it's because THEY haven't tought them not to, not because of evil outside forces.
Never said I was superior or others are apes...but if you feel that way and the shoe fits...
Calling people who use curse words 'mouth breathing morons' is a typical argument from people who dislike the use of curse words. I think they're just easily offended morons that can't handle the context of using a strong word in the right place to emphasize what you're trying to get across. Just look at thes two examples:
That stupid bastard cut me off!
That guy cut me off!
Clearly one of the two examples demonstrates the level of anger that is appropriate in such a situation. Especially in text based communication. The second example could be read in either a shocked, surprised, or angry tone. Adding stupid bastard however removes that ambiguity.
Umm, never called you out, never even said you were teaching your kids to swear....
All I said was that if someone who's so appaled by foul language hears their child say it it's because THEY haven't tought them not to, not because of evil outside forces.
Ok...my error.
And agreed.
Grow a thicker gorram skin.
I find the ironic contrast between the subject of your post and the fact that you used Whedon's own censor "gorram" in said post, to be highly amusing. Nice.
But, seriously, what I find to be in bad taste about the podcast is how asinine it is. The entire time, while I may have laughed, I really felt terrible for poor Chris Perkins. By all accounts, he's one of WotC's, if not the world's, most talented Dungeon Masters and he's reduced to this embarrasing level with a trio rather like the Stooges. They barely pay attention to him the entire forty minutes, constantly interrupting him and making rather poor jokes during the whole game, despite the fact he doesn't seem to find it amusing at all.
The man playing the fighter (I forget his name) even thought he had broken the system at one point! Yes, I'm sure WotC didn't think of what would happen if you used all of your healing surges at once. Somehow this was missed both in months of in-house playtesting and when thousands of people played at the D&D Experience.
I don't know, maybe I'm missing the fun, but if Chris Perkins asked me to preview 4th Edition under him, I'd listen to what had to ruttin' say. Give him some respect, yo.
"This day and age" he says. C'mon, man. I don't know about you but I cursed at traffic when I was pre-toddler, soon after learning to talk. I was mimicking my father. My mother thought it was funny, my father was a bit uptight about it.
The putz.
Sorry for being part of the 28% minority of living in a non-dysfunctional family.
Calling people who use curse words 'mouth breathing morons' is a typical argument from people who dislike the use of curse words. I think they're just easily offended morons that can't handle the context of using a strong word in the right place to emphasize what you're trying to get across. Just look at thes two examples:
That stupid bastard cut me off!
That guy cut me off!
Clearly one of the two examples demonstrates the level of anger that is appropriate in such a situation. Especially in text based communication. The second example could be read in either a shocked, surprised, or angry tone. Adding stupid bastard however removes that ambiguity.
Agreed...
but children still look ugly and make a bad impression on their parents when they have foul mouths.
but children still look ugly and make a bad impression on their parents when they have foul mouths.
Only to those who have a problem with stringing certain syllables together for arbitrary reasons.
I find the ironic contrast between the subject of your post and the fact that you used Whedon's own censor "gorram" in said post, to be highly amusing. Nice.
*shrugs* I like gorram. It's a fun word. ^_^ Far better than frell hehe.
Only to those who have a problem with stringing certain syllables together for arbitrary reasons.
Maybe...
but certainly to those who are polite, respectful, responsible, and professional...
Only to those who have a problem with stringing certain syllables together for arbitrary reasons.
As you can see, I have no issue with cursing, but I don't care who you are, you don't drop 'the f-bomb' and such in front of people like a future employer or a person you KNOW is offended by it or the like.
As you can see, I have no issue with cursing, but I don't care who you are, you don't drop 'the f-bomb' and such in front of people like a future employer or a person you KNOW is offended by it or the like.
This is the internet. You have to realize that not everyone is going to cater to every irrational whim someone may have.
This is the internet. You have to realize that not everyone is going to cater to every irrational whim someone may have.
I have no issue with the cursing in the podcast, but I'm talking about that 'don't let your kids swear in front of other adults', that is right.
I have no issue with the cursing in the podcast, but I'm talking about that 'don't let your kids swear in front of other adults', that is right.
Oh right. No that's even worse as you're instilling the stigma of swearing into yet another generation. Thankfully though if this latest generation is any indication it should be wiped out by the time my parents die (and even they didn't particularly care about swearing).
Oh right. No that's even worse as you're instilling the stigma of swearing into yet another generation. Thankfully though if this latest generation is any indication it should be wiped out by the time my parents die (and even they didn't particularly care about swearing).
Awesome, go into a job interview and say "**** yea I want to work here, I'm the **** at programing, I'll format your systems like a mother****er!" and see if you get it.
It's not stigma, it's called freaking manners.
Awesome, go into a job interview and say "**** yea I want to work here, I'm the **** at programing, I'll format your systems like a mother****er!" and see if you get it.
It's not stigma, it's called freaking manners.
While this is the exception, I once was interviewed for a job and the owner of the small business dropped the f-bomb and several racial epithets during the interview. It was a rather interesting interview and I ended up taking the job because the rules were relaxed there. Not that I condone racism (except against gnomes), but I find a relaxed atmosphere to be conducive to enjoying being at work since you don't have to worry as much about offending someone because they are thin skinned.
Gordon Ramsey, people. Gordon Ramsey.
Actually in his 'real' show, Kitchen Nightmeres on BBC he's a really nice guy and hardly ever swears.
Hell, even in Hell's Kitchen he only swears when he's really mad, not like he says it in casual conversation.
Awesome, go into a job interview and say "**** yea I want to work here, I'm the **** at programing, I'll format your systems like a mother****er!" and see if you get it.
Well thankfully my parents aren't dead yet and won't be a long, long time (I hope), so I still have to contend with their generations' hang ups.
It's not stigma, it's called freaking manners.
Why is it "freaking manners" to not utter arbitrary syllables? If you told the boss to "go **** himself" that's quite different to saying "Oh ****." I have no idea why saying "oh ****" is bad manners while saying "Oh dear" is good manners. Its arbitrary and makes no sense.
Are you dumb or just a troll?
I was waiting for this comment. I'm surprised you didn't throw in a "Clearly your parents raised you wrong" comment.
Do you REALLY not get that people get offended?
I do, but I don't understand why. Saying "because its always been considered bad" doesn't really explain why its bad. It's another way of saying "because" and leaving it at that. I've never accepted that as an acceptable reason before and I'll be damned if I'll accept it now.
Do you go around screaming racial slurs too, since those are 'just words' too?
I said earlier that I distinguish between swearing at someone (or using derogatory remarks about someone) and simply saying "oh ****." Here's my original quote
(note: I do not include ****-off, *****, **** or ****** in this list as these are often directed at someone, whereas the words in my harmless list aren't).
I did, in fact, include a racial slur (a common one for Americans of African descent) as a word I do find unacceptable. This is because it has a historical meaning of degrading a fellow human being. Whereas saying "oh ****" doesn't degrade someone else, its simply another way of saying "Oh bother." Perhaps one day racial slurs will lose their degrading meaning and will be able to be used with everyone knowing that you're not insulting someone else, but until then we can't.
Now if you want to use that justification for saying "oh ****" is bad, I'd love to know how saying "oh ****" degrades someone else.
Yes, language evolves, christ in Victorian ages you couldn't say 'pregnant' in polite company either, but as of now words like 'the f-word' and such have stood the test of time to be words people don't want in a formal/respectable setting.
Do you need justification for everything?
Just the things that seem pointless and silly.
It's been in our human culture for AGES that saying stuff like **** and **** and the like is not to be done in polite company.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Because while this seems an acceptable explanation to you, I find it sorely lacking. All I will say is that
Yes, language evolves, christ in Victorian ages you couldn't say 'pregnant' in polite company either
I hope the stigma with the word **** dies out just as it did with the word pregnant.
I find the ironic contrast between the subject of your post and the fact that you used Whedon's own censor "gorram" in said post, to be highly amusing. Nice.
But, seriously, what I find to be in bad taste about the podcast is how asinine it is. The entire time, while I may have laughed, I really felt terrible for poor Chris Perkins. By all accounts, he's one of WotC's, if not the world's, most talented Dungeon Masters and he's reduced to this embarrasing level with a trio rather like the Stooges. They barely pay attention to him the entire forty minutes, constantly interrupting him and making rather poor jokes during the whole game, despite the fact he doesn't seem to find it amusing at all.
I found it very amusing. I listen to Penny Arcade's own podcasts whenever they come out, and they crack jokes like this just in the course of talking to each other. What's more, I thought that the level of attention was appropriate for the situation; they were having fun, they were teaching some of the players the game, and they weren't forcing people to shut up just so they could progress faster to the next fight or "deep" roleplaying encounter.
And I think Chris found the jokes funny, but it's his job to at least maintain some semblance of order and play the straight man to the three goofballs.
The man playing the fighter (I forget his name) even thought he had broken the system at one point! Yes, I'm sure WotC didn't think of what would happen if you used all of your healing surges at once. Somehow this was missed both in months of in-house playtesting and when thousands of people played at the D&D Experience.
You didn't sense the heaps of sarcasm when he was claiming to have "broken" the system? To me, it was obvious that he knew there was something to stop him from that, but didn't know what it was, and was phrasing his question in such a way as to make it more amusing. I don't think that he thought for one second that you could actually spend all of your surges at once; rather, he was bringing the possibility to the front right away and confronting Chris with it to find out what the actual rules were.
This is like the recording of a game session that I hear was supposedly packaged with some early editions of D&D. In it, the actors' characters find a deep, dark well, and one of the actors declares "well, since you can do anything you want in D&D, I jump into the well and float safely to the ground!" so that the DM can respond "you can try anything you want, but it's up to me as the DM to decide whether or not you succeed." Likewise, Scott (the fighter in question) was aiming for instruction, not powergaming.
I don't know, maybe I'm missing the fun, but if Chris Perkins asked me to preview 4th Edition under him, I'd listen to what had to ruttin' say. Give him some respect, yo.
Well, you're a bit different from these folks. As they described (either in the podcast or on their own websites, I forget which) Tycho is the only one who plays regularly. Scott hasn't played since he was a kid, and Gabe has never played before. They're there to have fun and make an amusing podcast so that people can see how much fun it is to play, not to make a 40-minute long instructional recording that details every rule.
I understand your criticisms, and I'm not trying to attack you for them or anything. I'm just trying to explain why I think the podcast was a lot of fun for what it is, and why I don't think you should be so harsh on it.
I'm 18, so are my friends, we swear like sailors around eachother and in casual settings, but in more respectful society we don't, that's how most people are.
Good luck changing the system.
I'm sad that so many of you are so self concieted that you can't think past your own comfort zone. I don't care if my 15 year old hears this stuff. I care that 10 year olds will hear this stuff. IF a parent doesn't mind, that is their business. However, this podcast was linked to from WOTC's own D&D page and WOTC is advertising through libraries and schools that are getting to children much younger than even 10 years old.
Shame on everyone of you who aren't thinking along those lines.
Sorry for being part of the 28% minority of living in a non-dysfunctional family.
That was uncalled for, ignorant and straight up arrogant. You know zero about my family. I will thank you to keep your mouth shut about things you have no knowledge of.
Original Poster here
I'm sad that so many of you are so self concieted that you can't think past your own comfort zone. I don't care if my 15 year old hears this stuff. I care that 10 year olds will hear this stuff. IF a parent doesn't mind, that is their business. However, this podcast was linked to from WOTC's own D&D page and WOTC is advertising through libraries and schools that are getting to children much younger than even 10 years old.
Shame on everyone of you who aren't thinking along those lines.
To follow that up, we have this gem. Shame on you for projecting your values on to others. WotC is advertising, yes, but it is up to individual parents to make sure that their children are viewing things that they consider appropriate. WotC gives the warning, that's all they need to do. if parents are not monitoring their children's internet habits, then they are the only ones at fault when the children in question hear something inappropriate.
WotC is not here to guard children from the world. People need to take more responsibility for their own business and stop blaming others.
Some points that, for whatever weird reason, gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
1. You could hear that Tycho had been following 4E-previews.
2. Gabe sounds really nerdy.
3. Chet Awesomelaser.
To follow that up, we have this gem. Shame on you for projecting your values on to others. WotC is advertising, yes, but it is up to individual parents to make sure that their children are viewing things that they consider appropriate. WotC gives the warning, that's all they need to do. if parents are not monitoring their children's internet habits, then they are the only ones at fault when the children in question hear something inappropriate.
WotC is not here to guard children from the world. People need to take more responsibility for their own business and stop blaming others.
So I can say that Jetstream thinks that advertising using the F-word to 10 and under children is a good idea. Nice.
We, as adults, have an obligation to our younger folks. That isn't value projecting - it's a fact. Now, how we all go about that is up to us. *I* will say that if you are a corporation, then those rules need to conform more to the middle, less controversial ground, or you run the risk of condemnation.
Now, as WOTC is a subsidary of HASBRO, how do you think it would look if someone went to ABC news or CNN and said that HASBRO Was advertising their shiney new game using words like this?
I've already said that *I* enjoyed the podcast - a great deal. But I'm 42 and can handle those words. As a father and responsible adult, I object to how easy it is for children to find this podcast. The warning is very small and not appropriate. Those words shouldn't be there and be associated with WOTC/HASBRO. If Penny Arcade wants to do that or PVP, that is their business. They aren't in the business of advertising to libraries and children and on Saturday Morning Cartoons.
I'm not a 'high moral ground' kinda person, but I know what is right and wrong. When did so many people suddenly forget?
Warning: This podcast contains strong language.
Well, that ends that.
And honestly, unless parents are looking over the kids shoulders when they go on the net (which does happen), the parents are never going to find out. Honestly, by ten I had learned all sorts of bad words at school, and had said them to my parents, and got in a tiny bit of trouble. Heck, I'd even read them in books. It's not because they didn't sit down with me and say "check with me before you use any new word," because that would be ridiculous, and would've stunted my literary growth. Instead, I used words as they where used in context, and if I got in trouble for it, I stopped.
Also
That stupid bastard cut me off!
That guy cut me off!
I disagree with you on this point. I think it'd be awesome if people could come up with things like
"That codswaddler cut me off!"
or
"That cyclopic motorist took my place in the lane!"
However, since in our world people don't come up with witicisms like they do on TV, we'll have to deal with swearing like you exemplified.
Well, that ends that.
And honestly, unless parents are looking over the kids shoulders when they go on the net (which does happen), the parents are never going to find out. Honestly, by ten I had learned all sorts of bad words at school, and had said them to my parents, and got in a tiny bit of trouble. Heck, I'd even read them in books. It's not because they didn't sit down with me and say "check with me before you use any new word," because that would be ridiculous, and would've stunted my literary growth. Instead, I used words as they where used in context, and if I got in trouble for it, I stopped.
Are you a parent? Can you say you know everything about what they see? As a parent, I approve websites. Yes, you can go to that website, because I understand the production values and base morals of the site. So, now, do I tell folks who ask me about this website and company that they better hold off, or do I tell them to jump in and play and download and don't worry.
Everyone knows that kids learn things we wish they wouldn't. What I am saying is that WOTC doesn't want to be connected to that. I'm absolutely confused by the fact that they knowingly allowed it.
"SHUT THE **** UP!! LISTEN TO THE DARN DM!!"
Otherwise, it was an entertaining podcast. :D
Gah! All I wanted to do during the podcast was to screem at the players:
"SHUT THE **** UP!! LISTEN TO THE DARN DM!!"
Otherwise, it was an entertaining podcast. :D
I dunno, I think a podcast of Gabe, Tycho, and Scott Kurtz quietly listening to a DM and roleplaying perfectly rather than cracking jokes wouldn't have been nearly as funny.
Re: the censorship and kids argument
Personally I don't think that the language is really that bad, I know that as a kid I was exposed to worse language before I was ten or so and I like to think I turned out just fine. That said, the idea that the podcast could have a 10, 15, or 30 second warning at the beginning about language and spoilers would have been just dandy. But what it comes down to is that there *was* a warning on the page that had the download, and while it could have been bigger, had more neon lights, and maybe a little bit of a fanfare (70 marching trombones maybe?) if someone is just skimming to find the "download here" link then there's only so much you can do.
Re: "swear" words are bad
I'm of the idea that words have only as much power as people give them. That goes for swear words, racial slurs, other slurs, and the like. And since people currently *do* give those words offensive power, then they are offensive. And as such, in polite and restrained company they aren't very good words to use. Maybe not the best of reasons, but thats about as good as you're likely to get, I think. And I fully expect that even if the current crop of offensive language gets accepted and termed "appropriate" then we'll have a whole new set of "bad" words. That's just how language works.
Re: the guys talking over the DM
As I understand it, part of the idea of that podcast was to promote the game based off the web-celebrity status of the players. As such, I imagine they were encouraged to bring their own brand of humor to the table, to help the game appeal to those web-celebrities typical audience.
This is a link any child can use.
Stupid question, what's a link a child can't use? I've seen some less than savory parts of the internet, and it all seemed to be links a child could use.
That said, the explicit tag should probably be used for that file to handle filtering in itunes or other podcasting programs.
Can you say you know everything about what they see?
That's exactly my point. No I can't. No one can ever censor everything that someone sees. That's impossible.
I'm done arguing. I guess I'm wrong. HASBRO now condones the Fword. Great.
Hasbro? The same one?
Hasbro? The same one?
Yes, Hasbro owns WOTC.
I would have no trouble playing D&D with those guys - they sounded like cool guys.
Don't care about the swearing. This is not an advertisement, but a recording of an actual game session played by adults.
Parents should take responsibility for how they raise their kids and quit expecting corporations to do it for them. The internet is not, and will never be, a G-rated environment. Nor should it be. Adults should not be limited to only what is fit for children.
It is *your* job, as a parent, to moderate your children's activities on the internet. If you don't bother to do so, chances are your children will be subjected to a lot more than a swear word in a podcast.
Listen, I guess I have to be the only one to stand on the high ground here. I'll write to WOTC tomorrow and request the podcast be removed based on it's content.
I realize the corner I've painted myself into...I seem to be some kind of strict moral right kinda guy, when that is far from the truth. I can curse with the best of them. My kids have heard that. But I would never curse in front of another child. I would never even WRITE the words in a post. I certainly wouldn't publish something like that as advertising for a game targetting all ages.
Add Flash_Plasma to this list of those fine people who think it is ok for WOTC to have the Fbomb in podcasts 10 year olds can access.
Guess you should start paying closer attention to all the websites your children can access instead of parenting on auto-pilot like you're so obviously doing.
It's not WotC's job to protect your children.
So I can say that Jetstream thinks that advertising using the F-word to 10 and under children is a good idea. Nice.
You can also say John Lynch (my actual name) thinks its a fine idea as well.
We, as adults, have an obligation to our younger folks.
I see our obligation to be not to give them our irrational hang ups onto children.
or you run the risk of condemnation
Only from those who have the irrational hang-ups.
Now, as WOTC is a subsidary of HASBRO, how do you think it would look if someone went to ABC news or CNN and said that HASBRO Was advertising their shiney new game using words like this?
Go give it a try. Go out there and seek to bring damage to WotC by playing on other people's irrational hang ups. That'd be a great way to support your game
but I know what is right and wrong. When did so many people suddenly forget?
Please, please, please explain why "oh ****" is the wrong thing to say near a child, while saying "oh bother" is the right thing to say. I say this as a child who had his mother swear like a sailor around him, and all that has happened is I rarely swear as it holds no power over me. Most of the time when I do it, I do so to protest the irrational beliefs of others.
I'm a little surprised that people are more up in arms about the swear words then the virginity joke.
Agreed. Although I'm a bit relieved that making a joke about a natural part of the female body isn't the height of a social faux pax around here. There's hope for them all yet ;)
Go give it a try. Go out there and seek to bring damage to WotC by playing on other people's irrational hang ups. That'd be a great way to support your game
Sacrifice WotC to destroy 4e... hmm... not a bad idea. Unfortunate collateral damage, but 4e justifies it.
Please, please, please explain why "oh ****" is the wrong thing to say near a child, while saying "oh bother" is the right thing to say. I say this as a child who had his mother swear like a sailor around him, and all that has happened is I rarely swear as it holds no power over me. Most of the time when I do it, I do so to protest the irrational beliefs of others.
;)
Most children don't know what a hymen is. It was in terrible taste as well.
And if I have to explain why saying this word is wrong to you, then I understand you ignorance.
And if I have to explain why saying this word is wrong to you, then I understand you ignorance.
Personally I think it's far better they learn these things before ending up in detension because they didn't know you aren't supposed to raise your middle finger, or before the kids on the schoolyard teach them that swearing is cool. But then neither I nor WotC is responsible for the moral upbringing of your kids.
There were those who thought it was too geeky
Those who thought it was satanic
Those who thought it was stupid
I defended against them all. I've taught many people how to play. I've taught my children, and the children of friends.
D&D has soo many good things going for it...why give the jerks who really would cause WOTC and HASBRO real trouble when it isn't necessary? It's in poor taste and doesn't belong on this website. Why is that so hard to understand?
(And poor taste IS defined by the moral majority, whether the group that has answered this thread believes that or not. You are all probably 20-30 years old and have a belief system other than the moral majority. But you aren't thinking with your heads...Wotc could be sued over this stuff...right when the new product is hitting the shelves. That is not smart business.)
Most children don't know what a hymen is.
Which means either they ask and holy crap you might have to educate your kids, or they ignore it.
And if I have to explain why saying this word is wrong to you, then I understand you ignorance.
Wow, way to avoid the question. Could it be you don't know why saying "oh ****" is so terrible? I hope your kids get better answers if they ask you.
That is not smart business.
I leave it to WotC to run their business. I'd advise you do the same as well.
Sacrifice WotC to destroy 4e... hmm... not a bad idea. Unfortunate collateral damage, but 4e justifies it.
This made me laugh, unfortunately. Despite some of the criticism I have posted this weekend (mostly in the Death to Non-combat spells thread), I am looking forward to this game and desperately want it to succeed. This thing is like an adopted son that I've watched grow up. And as I was listening to the podcast, I was thinking this might be a good way to explain the game...the DM did a great & patient job of explaining how it works. And then the enthusiastic language sets in...
Which means either they ask and holy crap you might have to educate your kids, or they ignore it.
Wow, way to avoid the question. Could it be you don't know why saying "oh ****" is so terrible? I hope your kids get better answers if they ask you.
I leave it to WotC to run their business. I'd advise you do the same as well.
1. If my children ask what a hymen is, I'll tell them.
2. As an adult, I don't care what people say. As a child, I think they need to grow up a bit before they use that language. The word is a euphanism that has a hundred different meanings, depending upon the context. It's as adult as sex is. When a child asks where babies come from, do you launch into describing the act...or do you evaluate the age of the questioner before describing what is going on. I would hope that the younger the child, the more temperate your answer.
3. You can advise me as much as you want. I won't listen to you any more than you are listening to me. WOTC better listen to me, because if someone with a real burr gets a hold of this, it won't go well for them.
The word is a euphanism that has a hundred different meanings, depending upon the context. It's as adult as sex is.
Oh I'm sorry, so your problem is with the f word in particular. What about the four-letter expletives for feces and urine? Are you cool with children saying those words? After all, it has nothing to do with sex.
3. You can advise me as much as you want. I won't listen to you any more than you are listening to me. WOTC better listen to me, because if someone with a real burr gets a hold of this, it won't go well for them.
Seriously, thye dropped the F word twice. It could just be because when I was growing up my parents didn't give a flying **** (Honestly I was listening to 2Pac and Biggie albums at 6). But any parent that takes legal action over that has some problems.
1. If my children ask what a hymen is, I'll tell them.
2. As an adult, I don't care what people say. As a child, I think they need to grow up a bit before they use that language. The word is a euphanism that has a hundred different meanings, depending upon the context. It's as adult as sex is. When a child asks where babies come from, do you launch into describing the act...or do you evaluate the age of the questioner before describing what is going on. I would hope that the younger the child, the more temperate your answer.
3. You can advise me as much as you want. I won't listen to you any more than you are listening to me. WOTC better listen to me, because if someone with a real burr gets a hold of this, it won't go well for them.
Look, there IS a warning, I know you want a giant flashing neon one to literally pop out of the screen, but there IS one right under the summary of the podcast. Beyond that, if your kid comes to you and says 'daddy what does **** mean' it is YOUR job to say "It's a bad word that adults use when they can't think of a better word, and you shouldn't use it untill you're a grown up", that's parenting. It's NOT this company's job to teach your kids right from wrong, what word to use, or how to behave.
Guess you should start paying closer attention to all the websites your children can access instead of parenting on auto-pilot like you're so obviously doing.
It's not WotC's job to protect your children.
This dude won an internet.
I do agree with the topic though; there should be a warning. I can't see how WotC can "age-guard" this though (don't say put it behind an age-wall; any child can realize that putting in an older age will get them to the content), but just mentioning the explicit language would be good.
It is true that it isn't at all WotC's job to safeguard children, and if it came down to it, I would support WotC in the event of a lawsuit or something along those lines. It's not that they did wrong, but that they could do a little better for virtually no effort.
That said, this is a fairly minor issue, in my opinion.
On a side note, the podcast should have slightly better production values. Most of the time, I had no idea who was who.
On another side note, listening to one of them "break the system" by activating all of his healing surges before beginning the adventure (for a huge amount of temporary HP) was hilarious.
there should be a warning.
THERE IS A WARNING!
Hopefully this time people will notice (as its been said in this thread a few times ;)).
On a side note, the podcast should have slightly better production values. Most of the time, I had no idea who was who.
On another side note, listening to one of them "break the system" by activating all of his healing surges before beginning the adventure (for a huge amount of temporary HP) was hilarious.
It felt like a Penny Arcade podcast: that podcast basically has very low production values as well, and is basically about half an hour or so of Gabe and Tycho brainstorming over what webcomic to put up. So I guess I didn't have too much of a problem figuring out who was who: Gabe was "Jim Darkmagick," Tycho was the Omin, the cleric, and Scott Kurtz was Binwin.
One more great exchange:
Perkins: "So you get up to the top of the hill, and you can see that there used to be a rather large building here, but all that's left are some stones and a staircase leading downwards, everything else is smashed to flinders."
Tycho: "Did. . . did you say flinders?"
Perkins: "Yeah."
Tycho: *his linguaphile side showing* "I love this guy."
It felt like a Penny Arcade podcast: that podcast basically has very low production values as well, and is basically about half an hour or so of Gabe and Tycho brainstorming over what webcomic to put up. So I guess I didn't have too much of a problem figuring out who was who: Gabe was "Jim Darkmagick," Tycho was the Omin, the cleric, and Scott Kurtz was Binwin.
Yeah, I definitely saw Gabe as Darkmagick, and probably Tycho as Omin. I was sort of listening and posting here (to be honest, it wasn't finished playing when I typed my post)
One more great exchange:
Perkins: "So you get up to the top of the hill, and you can see that there used to be a rather large building here, but all that's left are some stones and a staircase leading downwards, everything else is smashed to flinders."
Tycho: "Did. . . did you say flinders?"
Perkins: "Yeah."
Tycho: *his linguaphile side showing* "I love this guy."
That was awesome, I definitely laughed at that.
And there is a warning? Whoops, I thought I read a post that said that there wasn't, and to be honest never bothered to check back. My bad :D
I don't even know what 'flinders' means, but I can tell you right now I'm very upset and don't want my kids listening to that kind of language. I don't see why they couldn't have just said "bits".
"Warning: This podcast contains strong language" indeed.
But seriously, that podcast pretty much sounded like how my group plays. And alot of other groups. Mr Perkins was being a good DM by letting them **** around and -GASP- have fun. Which is what D&D is all about. Fun. Another f-word.
Oh I'm sorry, so your problem is with the f word in particular. What about the four-letter expletives for feces and urine? Are you cool with children saying those words? After all, it has nothing to do with sex.
Nope, don't think they are appropriate either. I missed them.
And there is a warning? Whoops, I thought I read a post that said that there wasn't, and to be honest never bothered to check back. My bad :D
I missed the warning too... but the more I've thought about this, the more I think this is inapprporiate warning or no.
Let me be MORE Clear.
It's inappropriate FOR THIS WEBSITE. Whether WOTC wants to admit it or not, they have children of all ages coming to their site. Pokemon, Magic, D&D, etc. My wife, an elementary school librarian, has seen ads for their products (and 4e in particular) in periodicals that her children (grades 1 through 5) are seeing. That means THIS WEBSITE cannot have this type of material.
If Penny Arcade does this stuff, then those of us who want to find it can. The elimination of a direct link from WOTC's site means they are above reproach.
Do any of us use these words in the forum?? Why??? We keep using **** to represent the words... Why??? Because they are not apprporiate for children.
But seriously, that podcast pretty much sounded like how my group plays. And alot of other groups. Mr Perkins was being a good DM by letting them **** around and -GASP- have fun. Which is what D&D is all about. Fun. Another f-word.
Read the title of the thread. I already said I enjoyed it...as an adult. I've said above I would have used it as a training tool because of the excellent work the DM did in teaching the game...The explicitives adding nothing that couldn't have been substituted with tamer words.
Oh right, they don't do it when you're looking ;)
Nope, don't think they are appropriate either. I missed them.
Then what's your problem with those words? Your explanation only holds for one particular expletive and yet your problem seems to be all expletives.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, it just seems your explanation is incomplete.
Google.
Look at the kind of google images you get for searching for something innocent.
Like Mom.
Or hot dog.
I did catch the swearing but it didn't bother me any. It should have because no one should be desensitized to foul language but it didn't. I just let it slide because there are more important things in life than concemning someone for the language they use.
I kind of missed out on listening to the podcast when it was first released, so I went in knowing there were spoilers for KotS but I hope that future episodes do have spoiler warnings. And better editing. And a proper intro and conclusion. And monkeys.
Wait. Forget about the monkeys....
If Penny Arcade does this stuff, then those of us who want to find it can. The elimination of a direct link from WOTC's site means they are above reproach.
The link on the Penny Arcade news item about this podcast points back to the wizards.com website. Penny Arcade is read by children and people of all ages. I bet PvP has a link to it up as well. How are you proposing they post this podcast for adults to hear it without having it up in such a way that children can get to it? I won't be paying to listen to it, if that is your suggestion.
Also, I guarantee that if you know how to find it, your children know how to find it quicker (unless you censor their use of the internet at home, in which case their friends will find it and give it to them.) The quickest way to ensure a segment of the population finds something you don't want them to find is to try to limit their ability to find it. Just ask the RIAA about that....
You know what else is a site that children use?
Google.
Look at the kind of google images you get for searching for something innocent.
Like Mom.
Or hot dog.
Who would ever innocently look up "hot dog" on Google? :P
The link on the Penny Arcade news item about this podcast points back to the wizards.com website. Penny Arcade is read by children and people of all ages. I bet PvP has a link to it up as well. How are you proposing they post this podcast for adults to hear it without having it up in such a way that children can get to it? I won't be paying to listen to it, if that is your suggestion.
I don't care about PvP, nor am I so dense as to think searching innocent things on google comes up with not so innocent images and sites.
I'm talking about something from WOTC. it's their image that can suffer. Wasn't so very long ago I heard some wacko sermon on the radio extolling the satanic qualities of Dungeons and Dragons. WOTC doesn't need that kind of headache again.
To compare swearing (using two f-words in a 30 minutes span of time) to satan worship is terrible. This would mean that most people are evil, evil beings since most people have used swear words in their lifetime.
If the warning on the website is not enough for you, as a parent, then perhaps you, as a parent, should consider that maybe you shouldn't allow your child to visit this website? Also, consider that you, as a parent, should not allow your child to play D&D? This does *not* mean that you, as a parent, should tell WotC how to run their business or tell other parents how to rear their children.
We honestly don't mean it and I can understand even though I'm not one myself why a parent wouldn't want to have their children exposed.
That said, I think you're probably not going to find that much support as many think this was one of the sweetest 4E ads ever (how much cred does this give 4E among the webcrowd?)
That's pretty much how I feel about all profanity. There are appropriate times to use all language however. Around the office where I work, the attorneys swear quite frequently. I try not to. I personally do not find it to be professional. However, I don't see a problem with this podcast. It was created by a group of guys who use that sort of language all the time. That's sort of their MO. I would not have expected them to tone down their langugage for this sort of promotion. Their fans expect nothing less.
There is also a warning, that very clearly states that profanity is used in the podcast. I don't see a problem here at all. If you don't want your children hearing a couple of f-words, a couple of s-words, etc., don't let them download it.
Back when I was a kid (9, 10, 11, etc.) I was hearing worse on the playground everyday. I said worse on the playground every day. I didn't say any of those words around teachers or other authority figures though. Most kids can figure out when it's appropriate. And I'd be willing to bet that if they are old enough to download a podcast, they are old enough to have heard these words before. And at the very least, should know when it's appropriate to use those words.
I actually kinda see things from Endarian's perspective now that I think about it. It couldn't have been that hard for WOTC to put up a bleeped out version of the podcast on their website, then allow Penny Arcade to put up a version with all the fracks and shizzniks put in. Not because swearing is evil or anything, but because it doesn't quite fit the image of the websites: WOTC being a family oriented gaming website and Penny Arcade being raw and scatalogical gaming humor.
I did a poor job of explaining my position. themocaw did it much better. My thanks.
And to Bleach - thanks - understood - I see that now.
There's far worse than a few "f-bombs" on these very forums, and they're part of the website, too. Hell, lots of the D&D artwork is leaps and bounds worse (not that I'm complaining about it), and a lot of that is also on the website.
This complaint is utterly invalid.
My wife, an elementary school librarian, has seen ads for their products (and 4e in particular) in periodicals that her children (grades 1 through 5) are seeing.
Wait, hold on a second. They're advertising a game that glorifies violence, murder, and thievery to grade school children?!
Wait, hold on a second. They're advertising a game that glorifies violence, murder, and thievery to grade school children?!
My wife, who doesn't play, reads many periodicals centered around elementary school children and she commented (completely unrelated to this topic) that she had seen 4e advertisements.
Which is why I was concerned...
Who would ever innocently look up "hot dog" on Google? :P
To be fair, I checked hot dog, both with and without quotes, and primarily (for a dozen pages at least) got pictures of food and dachshunds... One picture of a dachshund puppy on a bun. That was cute.
Wait, hold on a second. They're advertising a game that glorifies violence, murder, and thievery to grade school children?!
More to the point, the game glorifies teamwork and thinking and strategy. These are the same arguments for and against children playing the Pokemon RPGs.
I'm talking about something from WOTC. it's their image that can suffer. Wasn't so very long ago I heard some wacko sermon on the radio extolling the satanic qualities of Dungeons and Dragons. WOTC doesn't need that kind of headache again.
In fairness, people like that are going to object regardless of language used somehow in connection with the product.
There is also a warning, that very clearly states that profanity is used in the podcast. I don't see a problem here at all. If you don't want your children hearing a couple of f-words, a couple of s-words, etc., don't let them download it.
The warning is on the web page advertising the podcast. That page is not the podcast.
There is not a warning on the podcast (nor does it carry the explicit tag for iTunes). Subscribers to the podcast will get the podcast not knowing that there is explicit content.
The feed should probably be tagged as explicit, and an audio warning applied to the beginning of future episodes that contain explicit material.
To be fair, I checked hot dog, both with and without quotes, and primarily (for a dozen pages at least) got pictures of food and dachshunds... One picture of a dachshund puppy on a bun. That was cute.
But you weren't "innocently" looking up the words "hot dog" on Google. You were doing an intentional search for whatever dirty images would come up for searching for those terms on Google based on the comment(s) posted on this thread, you dirty, dirty person.
The warning is on the web page advertising the podcast. That page is not the podcast.
There is not a warning on the podcast (nor does it carry the explicit tag for iTunes). Subscribers to the podcast will get the podcast not knowing that there is explicit content.
The feed should probably be tagged as explicit, and an audio warning applied to the beginning of future episodes that contain explicit material.
They also aren't labeled clean either, which is the tag to use to guarantee no offensive content. No tag means might or might not have offensive content. If parents want to be sure that children do not access "inappropriate" content, they should only allow clean tagged items.
My wife, who doesn't play, reads many periodicals centered around elementary school children and she commented (completely unrelated to this topic) that she had seen 4e advertisements.
Hrm... I think I need a bit of clarification here.
Are the periodicals with advertisements directed at people that work with small children (so that they can look into it and decide whether it might be an appropriate activity) or at the kids themselves?
If it's the former, then I think that's fine. An adult could easily frame a game for a bunch of kids that is appropriate and responsible. If it's directed at the kids themselves though... I'm not so sure how I would feel about that.
But then, I'm of the general perspective that until they're somewhere around teenagers most kids really don't know whats best for them and do need a responsible adult managing and approving their entertainment.
They also aren't labeled clean either, which is the tag to use to guarantee no offensive content. No tag means might or might not have offensive content. If parents want to be sure that children do not access "inappropriate" content, they should only allow clean tagged items.
Can't say I know what your point is. Clean/explicit is only applicable to iTunes which is why I made that comment as a parenthetical statement. There are many other feed readers out there that those tags are useless for.
WotC should have bleeped out the offending content, just as they censor the forums. Failing that, the responsible thing to do would to at least add the explicit tag and put a quick audio disclaimer on the front of the episode. Clearly they cared enough to put a warning on the ad for the podcast, there's no reason not to do so to the actual podcast.
Can't say I know what your point is. Clean/explicit is only applicable to iTunes which is why I made that comment as a parenthetical statement. There are many other feed readers out there that those tags are useless for.
WotC should have bleeped out the offending content, just as they censor the forums. Failing that, the responsible thing to do would to at least add the explicit tag and put a quick audio disclaimer on the front of the episode. Clearly they cared enough to put a warning on the ad for the podcast, there's no reason not to do so to the actual podcast.
If WotC wanted to say that there would be no explicit language used, they would use the clean tag.
Read the title of the thread. I already said I enjoyed it...as an adult. I've said above I would have used it as a training tool because of the excellent work the DM did in teaching the game...The explicitives adding nothing that couldn't have been substituted with tamer words.
Sorry, wasn't having a go at you. I was referring to whoever it was that said the podcast didn't advertise the game well, because it was just a bunch of idiots talking and ignoring the DM.
As for the naughty words, I'm in the boat that says WotC did their part by putting a warning on the page. Maybe they could have made it bigger, or put it right next to the download link or something, but as far as I'm concerned the warning was made, anyone who downloads the podcast after reading it has nobody but themselves to blame. The "children" who listen to it will probably be around the 13+ age range and would have heard and used curse words before. The ones you are trying to protect (10 yo) probably wouldn't be actively searching the D&D website because most 10 year olds don't know what D&D is. If they do, it would have been introduced by something/someone other than this website and they would be coming here because they want more information. They are already sold on the game, therefore the podcast would have no detrimental effect, except for overprotective parents getting up in arms about some naughty words and banning D&D for being evil and satani-oh...I see.
Furthermore, 10 year olds wouldn't be going after podcasts. They'd be going after artwork. Maybe the two comic panels might get them interested, but after they start listening to a bunch of adults chatting they'd most likely get bored before the filthy language started.
If WotC wanted to say that there would be no explicit language used, they would use the clean tag.
I can't believe I have to repeat this: the clean tag ONLY applies to people subscribed via iTunes, just like the web page warning ONLY applies to people who get to the episode via that route. They are partial measures.
Your declaration that there is a clean tag is completely irrelevant. WotC has already shown they care enough to provide a warning as evidenced by the person I originally quoted:
There is also a warning, that clearly states
There was no warning on the podcast, which was the subject in question. There was only a warning on the webpage advertising the podcast.
So let's slow it down so you don't get lost again:
WotC censors, not only these forums, but placed a warning on the advertisement for the podcast that is the equivalent of the "explicit" tag in iTunes.
While that warning is nice, it's ineffective since the webpage can and will be completely bypassed by many, if not most people listening to the podcast.
Adding the explicit tag so that iTunes flags it is another "nice to have" but it too will be commonly bypassed.
Neither of those ways is exhaustive, and the clean tag has absolutely no bearing on the situation other than your hypothesis:
"If WotC wanted to say that there would be no explicit language used"
is completely useless as they have already demonstrated that they don't want to say that there is no explicit content AS WE CAN SEE from the original, partial coverage warning. So your conclusion does not follow.
So again, what was your point? Other than to enlighten us that there is also a clean tag which is completely irrelevant.
but as far as I'm concerned the warning was made, anyone who downloads the podcast after reading it has nobody but themselves to blame.
Seriously, are podcasts this difficult to understand?
You don't have to go to the web page to get the podcast. It's not a difficult concept. No warning was provided over the vector that makes it a podcast in the first place.
While that warning is nice, it's ineffective since the webpage can and will be completely bypassed by many, if not most people listening to the podcast.
People who get the podcast through other means will 9 times out of 10 be teenagers or adults getting to it through sites not frequented by children. Penny Arcade, for instance is for adults. Children wouldn't be reading it. PvP, while family friendly is still pretty mature in its subject matter (in terms of it being aimed at adults and adult issues), so children wouldn't be getting it from there. I don't know of any kids who frequent E/N sites that would be linking it, because, again, those sites are aimed at teens and adults. Roleplaying hobby sites? Again, don't know too many children who would be so involved with D&D that they would be reading those sites.
Now if you're talking about adults who might get offended by accidentally downloading a podcast only to find out its a bunch of potty-mouthed men talking about hymen, then chances are they aren't interested in D&D anyway. Or possibly they ignored any off-site link that most likely stated who was partaking in the podcast. Knowing that Penny Arcade was involved might have given them a clue that the podcast could turn adult in nature. Maybe they don't know who Penny Arcade or PvP are. Perhaps they should have done some research. "Oh but you can't expect people to go researching something. Obviously I should be able to listen to a D&D podcast only needing to know that its D&D related". Correct. Absoloutley correct. But you don't go outside expecting everyone around you to speak with good manners. You hear someone in the street swearing and cursing, you ignore it. There is nothing you could have done to prevent them from swearing or you from hearing it. Unless you had done your research on everyone in the city beforehand and learned where they would be at which times so that you could avoid hearing them say ****.
A reasonable effort to warn of explicit language was made. The only argument is the potentially offensive nature of the hymen joke. In which case, WotC could add to the warning "contains explicit language and adult themes". Problem solved. The onus is on anyone who chooses to download the podcast to do a little research before listening.
Edit: So I opened up itunes and went to the D&D podcast page. Sure enough, no explicit language warning. But it DOES say "Penny Arcade". Don't know who they are? Do some research.
Guivre, I am seeing one flaw in your argument that you may not have considered fully:
People who get the podcast through other means will 9 times out of 10 be teenagers or adults getting to it through sites not frequented by children. Penny Arcade, for instance is for adults. Children wouldn't be reading it. PvP, while family friendly is still pretty mature in its subject matter (in terms of it being aimed at adults and adult issues), so children wouldn't be getting it from there. I don't know of any kids who frequent E/N sites that would be linking it, because, again, those sites are aimed at teens and adults. Roleplaying hobby sites? Again, don't know too many children who would be so involved with D&D that they would be reading those sites.
Now if you're talking about adults who might get offended by accidentally downloading a podcast only to find out its a bunch of potty-mouthed men talking about hymen, then chances are they aren't interested in D&D anyway. Or possibly they ignored any off-site link that most likely stated who was partaking in the podcast. Knowing that Penny Arcade was involved might have given them a clue that the podcast could turn adult in nature. Maybe they don't know who Penny Arcade or PvP are. Perhaps they should have done some research. "Oh but you can't expect people to go researching something. Obviously I should be able to listen to a D&D podcast only needing to know that its D&D related". Correct. Absoloutley correct. But you don't go outside expecting everyone around you to speak with good manners. You hear someone in the street swearing and cursing, you ignore it. There is nothing you could have done to prevent them from swearing or you from hearing it. Unless you had done your research on everyone in the city beforehand and learned where they would be at which times so that you could avoid hearing them say ****.
A reasonable effort to warn of explicit language was made. The only argument is the potentially offensive nature of the hymen joke. In which case, WotC could add to the warning "contains explicit language and adult themes". Problem solved. The onus is on anyone who chooses to download the podcast to do a little research before listening.
Edit: So I opened up itunes and went to the D&D podcast page. Sure enough, no explicit language warning. But it DOES say "Penny Arcade". Don't know who they are? Do some research.
Your first few paragraphs are full of nonsense. It is a podcast, you don't have to "go to a site" to get it. It's syndicated, BY DEFINITON BECAUSE IT IS A PODCAST. FFS if you don't get that concept go do some research yourself.
I'm not going to go over this and over this.
The claim was that warning was given so listeners had no one to blame but themselves.
That claim is false since warning was ONLY given to a subset of the listeners. That is a fact.
Your first few paragraphs are full of nonsense. It is a podcast, you don't have to "go to a site" to get it. It's syndicated, BY DEFINITON BECAUSE IT IS A PODCAST. FFS if you don't get that concept go do some research yourself.
I'm not going to go over this and over this.
The claim was that warning was given so listeners had no one to blame but themselves.
That claim is false since warning was ONLY given to a subset of the listeners. That is a fact.
But you're saying that putting the "explicit" tag in the podcast entry on the itunes store is pointless as well. So...what exactly are they supposed to do? As far as I see it, you have three or four options for obtaining the podcast.
1) WotC website. Which has a warning.
2) iTunes store. Which doesn't have a warning, but does say who it involves.
3) a 3rd party site. Which will most likely either provide a warning themselves or again, details who is in the podcast.
4) a friend sends it to you. What kind of friend would they be if they knowingly send you something that would offend you without at least warning you?
What other avenues are you talking about? Please be more specific.
And in the case of iTunes, here is the scenario (if you don't happen to know who Penny Arcade are and are thefore listening to it blindly):
"Ah, delightful. A new D&D podcast is up. Whats this? "The folks at Penny Arcade sat down with R&D's Chris Perkins to play 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons." Hrmm. I wonder who these folks at Penny Arcade are.
If you choose to activate your Google Machine to look up Penny Arcade before listening to the podcast, turn to page 112.
If you choose to listen to the podcast without finding out who Penny Arcade are, turn to page 207
pg112:
"What utter filth! I certainly won't be listening to this podcast! It will most definitely offend my sensibilities!" Game over. You win.
pg207:
" *spits out tea* My word! These gentlemen offend me with their foul language and inappropriate discussion!
If you choose to stop listening to the podcast and get on with the rest of your life, do so. Game over. You win.
If you choose to throw a fit turn to page 83
pg83:
"Geeves! Fetch the ladder and register me a Wizards of the Coast forum account. I must get on my high horse!
The only nonsense I am seeing is people's inability to use common sense when dealing with offensive materials.
But you're saying that putting the "explicit" tag in the podcast entry on the itunes store is pointless as well...
I never said it was pointless, i didn't bother reading the rest as what IS pointless is continuing when you clearly don't understand what is being said.
Edit: Unfortunately I did read some more of it. You still clearly don't understand what a podcast is. Had I realized I was dealing with the technologically naive I would have stopped sooner.
Hrm... I think I need a bit of clarification here.
Are the periodicals with advertisements directed at people that work with small children (so that they can look into it and decide whether it might be an appropriate activity) or at the kids themselves?
If it's the former, then I think that's fine. An adult could easily frame a game for a bunch of kids that is appropriate and responsible. If it's directed at the kids themselves though... I'm not so sure how I would feel about that.
But then, I'm of the general perspective that until they're somewhere around teenagers most kids really don't know whats best for them and do need a responsible adult managing and approving their entertainment.
In asking my wife, it was a YALSA journal. (Young Adult Library Services Association) It is geared toward professionals and she thinks it was a promotion for Teen Tech Week. So, Kids wouldn't see it directly, but they would possibly get a forward thinking librarian to show them the game...and then they would go home and ask...and perhaps to the website from there.
Parents can't police everything, but you like to think there are good websites and not so good ones. I approve web use by the site for my sons. I'm sure other parents do the same.
Also, way to avoid providing "other sources" than the four I listed. Oh wait, you didn't bother to read it, did you?
What I understand is that reasonable measures were taken by WotC. They can't be expected to moderate outside forces that they don't control. It is up to those 3rd parties to do the moderating for them.
Yes, they could put in an audio warning. Perhaps they should have. Yes they could bleep out the curse words. Perfectly acceptable. But in the case of the offensive joke, they can't really do much about it without cutting the whole bit out.
But the whole bit was about Gabe making his first ever d20 roll. Quite an important part of a first time D&D player's experience, and something that shouldn't be cut out of the podcast. So they start bleeping out "hymen"? Then most of that section of the podcast would make no sense.
Finally, if you know who Penny Arcade are, you should be listening to the podcast expecting offensive material. Its what they do.
www.ala.org/ala/yalsa/yalsa.cfm (click on Teen Tech Week on left)
http://www.ala.org/ala/yalsa/teentechweek/ttw08/ttw.cfm
(Look mid first paragraph for link to pdf)
"Libraries across the country have already discovered the benefits and popularity of hosting the highly successful Afternoon Adventures with Dungeons & Dragons (tm) program. And with the upcoming launch of Dungeons & Dragons (r) 4th Edition, we're excited to introduce an all-new facet of the game: Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&DI).
D&D helps kids develop reading, math, creativity and problem-solving skills. By combining the allure of D&D with the appeal of electronic gaming, D&DI can really help instill an affinity for the library, as players learn to actively use library resources, reference material, information technology, and the knowledgeable guidance of their librarian.
D&DI offers the opportunity to take their D&D (r) games online, in addition to enhancing the more-traditional tabletop gaming experience."
The PDF goes on to list 5 ways D&D Insider and Libraries go together. (Use of library computes for the Digital Gaming Table, Play Groups using Library AV resources, Allowance of kids to incorporate technology into their lives by translating an analog game experience into digital formats..., Networking with other players, access to reference material and fantasy fiction.
The PDF states that D&D Insider is still in development but it references a video librarians can use. It does not provide a website...but enterprising children will find the WOTC website fast enough with these cludes.
MY NOTES - I'm in full support of this program....and It is promoting the use of technology. Technology is associated with podcasting. WOTC linking to podcasting with foul language is not appropriate.
But the whole bit was about Gabe making his first ever d20 roll. Quite an important part of a first time D&D player's experience, and something that shouldn't be cut out of the podcast. So they start bleeping out "hymen"? Then most of that section of the podcast would make no sense.
Finally, if you know who Penny Arcade are, you should be listening to the podcast expecting offensive material. Its what they do.
Please, you don't really mean that do you? A few bleeps and we adults can fill in the blanks...especially since there were 'so few of them'. I'm sure none of us would have been lost.
And I apologize, I'm one of those folks (obviously) who didn't know who Penny Arcade was. When I saw it was a link from WOTC, I thought it was a WOTC sponsered podcast.
Says the guy who can't be bothered reading my entire post. Very hypocritical. Well done. I understand perfectly what is being said. I just happen to think it is the wrong way of looking at the overall subject of censoring.
That's not hypocritical, that's just showing good judgment. If you can fail that completely with the first sentence it's not worth continuing.
Also, way to avoid providing "other sources" than the four I listed. Oh wait, you didn't bother to read it, did you?
There's no point. You're working under a completely false notion of what a podcast is, as is completely clear from your list of "sources". It's not my job to educate you, and I'm not going to waste any more time doing it.
WOTC linking to podcasting with foul language is not appropriate.
Keep in mind that it's not just a link. It's their feed that they control that doesn't indicate the content.
Personally I don't have an issue with the content as long as it's marked appropriately.
There isn't much to be done about an audio disclaimer if WotC doesn't put one, however the fact that they didn't use an explicit tag is a reportable offense on iTunes.
I would expect that this is an oversight on WotCs part though. They do censor the forums fairly heavily so it's hard to imagine this was through through properly. The first offense can be chalked up to a mistake.
MY NOTES - I'm in full support of this program....and It is promoting the use of technology. Technology is associated with podcasting. WOTC linking to podcasting with foul language is not appropriate.
Thats a pretty roundabout way of blaming WotC for damaging our youth.
It is promoting the use of technology. - okay. Did you also know that there is porn on the internet? Better stop promoting technology because it MIGHT expose your children to pornography.
Technology is associated with podcasting. - STOP RIGHT THERE! There are plenty of other adult podcasts available on iTunes, which children can easily access. Not WotC's fault. Perhaps you should be petitioning Apple.
WotC linking to podcasting with foul language is not appropriate - To your children. Its up to you to moderate it. WotC are catering to EVERYONE, not just children. The Penny Arcade podcast is aimed at adults, because thats the type of people who read Penny Arcade. Maybe after the Penny Arcade podcast series is done, they'll do a series with Hannah Montanna playing D&D, which won't interest Adults at all.
And once again, if this program is incorporating DDI and the WotC website, then there is no problem. WotC have put up the explicit language warning. Reasonable measures taken.
I would expect that this is an oversight on WotCs part though. They do censor the forums fairly heavily so it's hard to imagine this was through through properly. The first offense can be chalked up to a mistake.
I'm very surprised they haven't responded. How easy would it be to do what you are suggesting...
I fail to see where Wizards should be obligated or to feel obligated to provide any sort of warning. The language used is not horrible, hateful, or derogatory. Yes, there are a few foul words and the implication of something related to human procreation; egads!
It is a podcast of some guys playing a game where the object is to slay monsters and take their treasure. The target audience is going to already know what those words are and what they mean and isn't going to care; they've already heard much worse.
Furthermore, there aren't 8 year old children cruising iTunes for podcasts that aren't tagged explicit. If somebody is technologically savvy enough to be cruising iTunes for random podcasts, that somebody has already seen/heard much worse content (even by accident, and not necessarily on the internet).
And if there are eight year old children just looking for bad iTunes podcasts to listen to, this is so tame compared to some of the stuff out there that it won't even be a blip on their radar. And as it's already been mentioned, it is up to the parents to protect their children, not Wizards, nor Penny Arcade, nor PvP.
It isn't the responsibility of Wizards nor anyone else to provide any sort of warning. Yes, it'd be sort of nice if they did, but it's still a very minor issue. It's not their responsibility to raise and protect children, and the only people likely to listen to this already have heard much, much worse.
WotC linking to podcasting with foul language is not appropriate - To your children. Its up to you to moderate it. WotC are catering to EVERYONE, not just children. The Penny Arcade podcast is aimed at adults, because thats the type of people who read Penny Arcade. Maybe after the Penny Arcade podcast series is done, they'll do a series with Hannah Montanna playing D&D, which won't interest Adults at all.
And once again, if this program is incorporating DDI and the WotC website, then there is no problem. WotC have put up the explicit language warning. Reasonable measures taken.
Penny Arcade can do what they want - they aren't a billion dollar conglomerate with shareholders and nervous lawyers wondering where the next lawsuit is coming from. We adults can go THERE to get our unedited Podcasts.
WOTC's websites are oriented to children and games. Hanna Montana might be closer to the demographic they are targeting for this new version. IT would be approriate on the website.
Would I listen to the Hanna Montana version? No. Would I worry about it for children - no.
In case you haven't gotten the clue yet - the words on the website aren't enough. Objectionable material has no place on WOTC's GAME pages. If it were, I'd expect the trend to put more clothes on the monsters (succubus et al) would go in the opposite direction. I'd expect there to be no censorship of language on this forum. I'd expect more 'color' in their articles.
I suspect this was an oversight on WOTC's part. If it wasn't, then this isn't the company I thought it was.
I'm very surprised they haven't responded. How easy would it be to do what you are suggesting...
Yeah, it would be easy.
Additionally if they absolutely had to have an uncensored version, Penny Arcade has their own podcast feed. I know you don't think they should link to it at all, but linking to a 3rd party site with a disclaimer is better than hosting the content themselves I would think.
Yeah, it would be easy.
Additionally if they absolutely had to have an uncensored version, Penny Arcade has their own podcast feed. I know you don't think they should link to it at all, but linking to a 3rd party site with a disclaimer is better than hosting the content themselves I would think.
I went back and read my first post. (I think it's much tamer than the defensive crouch I'm in now
) and I did say a mature rating would have been good in case they couldn't bleep out the content.There's no point. You're working under a completely false notion of what a podcast is, as is completely clear from your list of "sources". It's not my job to educate you, and I'm not going to waste any more time doing it.
A podcast is an audio file, downloaded to your computer through a graphical interface. The most common way of obtaining a podcast feed is through iTunes. People with enough knowhow to be getting podcasts from other sources will be teens and adults who - I would assume - are intelligent enough to make informed decisions on what content they are downloading.
You say putting the explicit tag on it is pointless, yet wave your fist at WotC for not doing it. Where exactly do you stand? It sounds like no matter what they do, they can't win. I actually do think it should be on there, and agree with you that it was most likely an oversight on their part. So long as they correct it, I don't see why you should continue to have an issue.
Also, you ignore what I'm saying because you know that my argument leaves yours without a leg to stand on. Also, I am addressing the issue as a whole, not just your particular point of contention. I am not an idiot and I refuse to let you imply that I am one. If you wish to dress down my arguments, the least you could do is actually read them and address them instead of dismissing them as nonsense.
*shrugs* I like gorram. It's a fun word. ^_^ Far better than frell hehe.
I'd grok frell, but the gorram DVDs are impossible to find.
Shame on you for projecting your values on to others.
+1, QFMFT, etc etc.
Wasn't so very long ago I heard some wacko sermon on the radio extolling the satanic qualities of Dungeons and Dragons.
So you have a special magic radio that picks up signals from twenty years ago? (or maybe just low-band AM hate-screeds).
So you have a special magic radio that picks up signals from twenty years ago? (or maybe just low-band AM hate-screeds).
I'm going to jump in here. I know that you weren't replying to me, but on my recent trip through New Hampshire, I heard a radio pastor (on a FM station) discussing the satanic qualities of D&D. It enables children to act out satanic impulses and brings them further away from God.
One state over, I heard another radio pastor discussing how wives should submit to their husbands. The pastor then said that "if wives don't submit to their husbands, you get adultery, you get disease, you get AIDS, you get the plague".
I am totally serious that the guys said that. Two different pastors, two different states, one absolutely hilarious car trip.
I was so mad when I heard this sermon (something like 3 years ago now), I couldn't think straight. Pure lies and misunderstandings being preached to sheep who follow without thinking.
I once had a coworker tell me he let boy scouts play D&D at camp until his pastor told him it was evil. /sigh
Penny Arcade can do what they want - they aren't a billion dollar conglomerate with shareholders and nervous lawyers wondering where the next lawsuit is coming from. We adults can go THERE to get our unedited Podcasts.
WOTC's websites are oriented to children and games. Hanna Montana might be closer to the demographic they are targeting for this new version. IT would be approriate on the website.
Would I listen to the Hanna Montana version? No. Would I worry about it for children - no.
In case you haven't gotten the clue yet - the words on the website aren't enough. Objectionable material has no place on WOTC's GAME pages. If it were, I'd expect the trend to put more clothes on the monsters (succubus et al) would go in the opposite direction. I'd expect there to be no censorship of language on this forum. I'd expect more 'color' in their articles.
I suspect this was an oversight on WOTC's part. If it wasn't, then this isn't the company I thought it was.
I disagree. WotC is not aimed at children. They simply attempt to be family friendly. Or are you saying every adult who plays D&D is taking part in a children's game? D&D is far from a children's game. Children can play it (I was introduced at 7 or 8), but the game isn't and never was specifically for children.
What WotC are actually doing is trying to make D&D for everyone. I fail to see where WotC is tailoring D&D to children, since all of the content on the site is pretty detailed and not really the sort of thing a a 7 or 10 year old would be interested in reading.
Even the podcasts would be stuff that most children would find boring.
And as for objectionable material having no place on WotC sites, they should pretty much discontinue their business, since just about all their products contain violence and images of violence that are "objectionable" to many. Not to mention in addition to the violence, D&D and M:tG dealing with "objectionable" things like demons and hellspawn.
I'm sorry, but I think WotC have done everything that they reasonably can (except for forgetting to put an explicit tag on the podcast) to be as family friendly as they can. Its up to parents to take a closer look and decide for themselves what content their children should have access to.
I was so mad when I heard this sermon (something like 3 years ago now), I couldn't think straight. Pure lies and misunderstandings being preached to sheep who follow without thinking.
I'd get pretty mad too; there can be some really ignorant people out there (see Jack Thompson
). In my specific case, I was laughing too much to be really angry or insulted, but a equally-hateful-less-ridiculous sermon is a horrible thing to hear.EDIT: And TheCapn is right. WotC is not tailoring D&D to children; saying that they are targetting the Hannah Montana demographic is either a poor attempt at humour or a bad troll attempt.
edit: ninjaed.
Farmer, I don't exactly see your point about being able to purchase non-kid-friendly splatbooks at a store. Are you saying Wizards should only make them available for online purchase, or perhaps they should be sealed like pornography (oh yeah, there's a good way to stop the "D&D is evil" sermons)? Or are you faulting the bookstore for allowing access to said content?
Or are you saying that this sort of content is easy to find, and thus isn't an issue for a barely-bad podcast on iTunes when there's much worse at a bookstore?
You can also buy extremely explicit erotic novels at that same store.
Farmer, I don't exactly see your point about being able to purchase non-kid-friendly splatbooks at a store. Are you saying Wizards should only make them available for online purchase, or perhaps they should be sealed like pornography (oh yeah, there's a good way to stop the "D&D is evil" sermons)? Or are you faulting the bookstore for allowing access to said content?
Or are you saying that this sort of content is easy to find, and thus isn't an issue for a barely-bad podcast on iTunes when there's much worse at a bookstore?
I think the point is that the DnD line has always been PG-13, and thus, the DnD website should be held to the same standard, not a G standard.
Edit: Ninja'd. Also, dude, I bookended that last page. Sweet.
The point I'm trying to convey is that WotC doesn't, hasn't, nor ever will be an exclusively family oriented company. Specifically, I'm addressing the claims that the podcast is inappropriate for WotC's site.
Aah, gotcha. In which case, I agree 100% with you.
That sounds like an interesting idea actually. Get those kids in a safe adult-supervised environment, instead of out being little hellions that kids tend towards when left to their own devices.
Add Flash_Plasma to this list of those fine people who think it is ok for WOTC to have the Fbomb in podcasts 10 year olds can access.
Listen, I guess I have to be the only one to stand on the high ground here. I'll write to WOTC tomorrow and request the podcast be removed based on it's content.
You seem to have confused the high ground with your high horse. Please do us all the favor of dismounting.
The only problem I have with it, is that it was posted on the same stream as the normal D&D podcast, which is generally SFW, and it didn't have an "explicit" tag on ITUNES or any warning. Aside from that, they can say frack all they like, frackity frack frack frack.
First off, for those of you who are going to try to jump on me from the 'cursing is okay' crowd, I know. I've been around cursing people all my life. Hell, in my year in Iraq, basically every sentence from every soldier's mouth was 'seasoned' with some derrogatory word (mine included, I'm no angel). When I go to the USO (where I game) I bring my son, who is 7 1/2. Yes, people cuss there (again, lots of soldiers), but I've already talked to my son. He knows the words, he just doesn't use them, and this is why;
Lets say you go in for a pre screen with a doctor that is about to do surgery on you. He walks into the room, very proffesional looking fella. He smiles and begins to talk to you, very educated words, but with a HEAVY southern drawl. That guy might be the smartest doctor in the world, but its his ability to articulate that causes the problem. Sure, you might still go through with the surgery, but you would have never had any doubt if he came in and told you what was going to happen without any noticable accent.
In my eyes, its the same as 'cussing'. There is NO WHERE that it says you cannot say these words. However, and this is a big however, you can never make the 'F' word sound sophisticated (I use 'F' word, not out of prudeness, but because it will sensor me otherwise). You just can't do it. You can say something the effect of. "Well the general land speed velocity of an unlaiden swallow is f&^%ing 30 MPH." And your audience probably won't be thinking 'wow he's sure smart for knowing that', their entire thought of what you say will be on the ability you have to smoothly articulate yourself.
Curse words are very rough. They never sound smooth or intelligent. Yes, I use them...probably more than I should. However, they still are not intellectual words. You could be a person with a genius IQ and 90,000 word vocabulary, once you drop that word a few times in any higher society you will develop a certain stigma.
As always, feel free to argue with me if you feel the neccessity, however, I think that I've been pretty neutral on the arguement, and haven't attacked anyone, so I feel that you will give me the same benefit. Thank you.
The average person probably has a ninety thousand word vocabulary. Its really not as much as it sounds.
First, I was only throwing out a random number...
Second please refer to this quick blurb from a rather interesting article I found on the subject at the following web page:
http://unauthorised.org/anthropology/anthro-l/august-1996/0436.html
The paragraph, which is about proffesors and linguists, reads as copied below:
"Although the numbers for vocabulary sizes that came out of this occasion
sound much larger than I have seen people guess at elsewhere, that
shouldn't be surprising in the setting. Most of the guests were members
of the LSA Board of Directors, or past LSA Presidents, or people used to
running in such company. At that level of linguistics in those days, you
just had to be a lover and collector of words for their own sake. Anyplace
linguists gathered, before Chomsky, was like a convention of Words 'R' Us.
Joos claimed that when he did the same test informally back in Madison
with professorial colleagues from other disciplines at the U of Wisconsin,
he found their vocabulary sizes running in the 50,000 to 100,000 word
range, on average. The few student vocabularies he tested in the same way
ranged considerably lower."
Given that the actual ability to count words in ones vocabulary is sketchy at best, but for the greatest part of my searching, I found that an average (normal) Person has a vocabulary somewhere closer to 30,000.
Once again, I was only trying to tell people that it doesn't matter how smart you are, that you can't make 'cuss' words sound classy. If you chose to pull apart my entire writing and find one thing you think is wrong, thats on you. Perhaps you should try to concentrate on what someone says on a whole instead of just pulling out one sentence.
Warning: Life may contain language or situations that some people may find offensive. Deal with it.
To the topic
Warning: Life will contain language or situations that some people may find offensive. Deal with it.
Fixed.
To the topic
Warning: Life may contain language or situations that some people may find offensive. Deal with it.
So true! I wish more people would learn this.