For the purposes of this match, Cloud is using his trademark Buster Sword, and will not be equipped with summoning materia or extremely high-level materia (fire, ice, thunder, cure, barrier, haste, and the other 'regular's are acceptable, but remember that the Buster can only equip two unlinked materia). Link will be using his trademark Master Sword, and can be assumed to have access to the 'normal' versions of his arsenal of tools (the fairy bow, slingshot with deku nuts, boomerang, hookshot, bombs, megaton hammer, net, and ocarina ought to cover it). Link's ocarina can be assumed to function as a teleportation device.
'Potions' and expendables from either 'verse are out. Combatants fight in a neutral area with variable terrain and high ground. Some Hylian ruins, or a partially-collapsed courtyard in Midgar.
And go!
Which version of Link is fighting here?
I'm going to say a Smash Bros. Brawl / Legend of Zelda 64 version. All the classic moves, and the extensive haversack of gear.
What Cloud has going for him is damage. Even being very, very weak, the Buster Sword's power is at least as good as any of Link's BFS', if not better. A few hits from that thing should knock Link out, but I don't think he can actually LAND them.
All Cloud ever does is stand in a line and wait for his turn.
Link looks like the clear favorite here. My original leaning was Cloud, but come to think of it, he really doesn't move a lot. Having played a lot of SSB, I should've known better.
Would Cloud's (two slots of) basic materia make a difference? Just a simple Fire or Bolt materia might alleviate his 'can't hit Link' and 'Link has ranged' advantages? Maybe?
Cloud (at his most powerful) vs Link (at his most powerful):
Winner: Cloud, hands down. The summoning materia, plus the more powerful non-summoning materia, not to mention the more powerful limit breakers, makes Link's toys look like, well, toys.
If Cloud doesn't just sit back and summon Kights of the Round, he'd still kick Link's but with all the rest of his materia. Final Attack + Phoenix anyone?
Cloud (no attack Materia) vs Link (at his most powerful)
Winner: Cloud. Cure materia to take care of anything Link throws at him, plus the use of Omnislash and Cloud's other Limit Breaks would make Link look like a chump.
Cloud (no materia, just Buster Sword and limit breaks) vs Link (at his most powerful)
Winner: Hard to say. This is the only situation where Link even stands a chance. Striped of the summon materia, and all the rest of the materia, Cloud would have to rely on his Limit Breaks and natural fighting abilities.
Link would have a bit of an advantage here, what with his bow, grappling hook, and all the rest of his gear.
In fact, I think I'd have to give the edge here to Link. Cloud's only chance would be to get in close and force Link to fight sword to sword. Link would only lose if Cloud managed to land a solid Omnislash, which isn't a forgone conclusion since Link has some pretty impressive dodging skills.
Cloud moves very fast.Hell, why not go for broke? Advent Children Cloud vs. SSBB Link; that would be a crazy fight with Omnislash colliding with Triforce Strike it might end up dividing by zero. I'm giving Sky Conflict the win.
We're barring anything outside of Link's basic arsenal of tools as described in the OP. No spells, no masks / biggoron's sword / etc.
Link looks like the clear favorite here. My original leaning was Cloud, but come to think of it, he really doesn't move a lot. Having played a lot of SSB, I should've known better.
Would Cloud's (two slots of) basic materia make a difference? Just a simple Fire or Bolt materia might alleviate his 'can't hit Link' and 'Link has ranged' advantages? Maybe?
Ok, I think your OP is a little restrictive here, as my previous post probably shows. If you are just going to say "Link, ala SSB, vs Cloud, two-nonlinked materia and just standing waiting his turn" then yeah, Link FTW, no contest.
But, if you instead say "Cloud, ala Advent Children vs Link, ala SSB" then we have a contest. Cloud can pull some pretty impressive maneuvers, but doesn't possess any materia. He gets to use his limit breaks (which gives him some ranged capacity), but they don't just kill Link instantly.
Seriously, I could just as easily say "Cloud, at the end of FF7, vs Link, at the end of the first Zelda" and the contest would be just as one-sided for Cloud.
Ok, I think your OP is a little restrictive here, as my previous post probably shows. If you are just going to say "Link, ala SSB, vs Cloud, two-nonlinked materia and just standing waiting his turn" then yeah, Link FTW, no contest.
Well, no. Nobody said Cloud has to stand around. It's pretty much:
Link, ala SSB / LoZ 64 vs. Cloud, with slotted Buster Sword and limit breaks.
Or cloud from, like, level 5 at the start of the game?
I mean, in AC, he was casually slicing buildings apart. No materia, just him and his big sword (which wasn't the Buster Sword, but that difference is largely immaterial).
Well, but which Cloud? Cloud with the skills/overall power at the end of FF7? Cloud from Advent Children?
Or cloud from, like, level 5 at the start of the game?
I would say end-of-ff7 Cloud (fully trained with all limit breaks), but trademark Buster Sword (plus 'normal' materia) only. Seems fair, since we've capped Link's 'spells' and endgame tools.
Max-leveled Cloud with Bahamut Zero ready and all that jazz would easily win over any version of Link.
Max-heart Link with all equipment at the end of Twilight Princess versus level 25 Cloud with just his Buster Sword and a Fire Materia will have Link most likely win. (Especially if he has a maxed amount of Rupees.)
Now, Advent Children's Cloud has a much better shot, because of the crazy First Tsurugi, which gives him reach. However, otherwise, his best shot is spamming Cure and praying he can get close without dieing.
Cloud probably didn't vastly jump in physical ability from FF7 to AC; his sword changed, and he got a new limit break, but otherwise I don't think it's a huge gulf. Therefore, we know that he can, frankly, leap tall buildings in a single bound. He killed Bahamut...Sin? Zero?....whichever, with a single limit break. No materia there at all. He slices building chunks in pieces. He is quite frankly superhuman. I'd imagine he could largely dodge any ranged attacks of Link, and any lower level defensive/curative materia would help him cover the rest. Up close, Link might stop a blow or two with his shield, but it'll probably cost him a broken arm.
The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards this going to Cloud, unless we totally gimp him, and give Link every goody ever.
Therefore, we know that he can, frankly, leap tall buildings in a single bound.
But you must realise, that he could only do that with the power of FRIENDSHIP.
I say Link. Why? He uses tactics to take out HUGE monsters BY HIMSELF. Cloud, while badass, superhuman, and cool, just chops stuff up and needs help doing it. Link has (almost) always gone solo, learning to rely on himself. Brains FTW. I say Link wins. He's pretty farking fast, too.
Yus.
Cloud is Superman.
Link is Batman.
Now back to you. ;)
Can Link beat Sephiroth? Nope, don't think so.
Can Cloud beat Sephiroth? Yes, and he has. Both with his team (FF7) and by himself (Advent Children).
/thread
Ok, let's put it this way:
Can Link beat Sephiroth? Nope, don't think so.
Can Cloud beat Sephiroth? Yes, and he has. Both with his team (FF7) and by himself (Advent Children).
/thread
I don't know if this really decides it. For one, Cloud didn't beat Sephiroth but once, and he did it by pulling a fast one that Seph probably won't fall for again. Also: I highly doubt Seph is dead dead.
Turn it around, though: could Cloud beat Ganon, the 'King of Evil'? We're talking about a just-won't-die, epic-level mage/warlock with the Triforce of Power and a very sharp mind for planning and plotting. Given the way Cloud approaches things (and Ganon's penchant for 'sealing away' his more serious enemies without really engaging them), I think Ganon would hand Cloud his ass.
But you must realise, that he could only do that with the power of FRIENDSHIP.
That wasn't leaping buildings. That was achieving near orbit.
The final fight, on the old Shinra building. No pushes from friends, and he's hopping all over.
I don't know if this really decides it. For one, Cloud didn't beat Sephiroth but once, and he did it by pulling a fast one that Seph probably won't fall for again. Also: I highly doubt Seph is dead dead.
Turn it around, though: could Cloud beat Ganon, the 'King of Evil'? We're talking about a just-won't-die, epic-level mage/warlock with the Triforce of Power and a very sharp mind for planning and plotting. Given the way Cloud approaches things (and Ganon's penchant for 'sealing away' his more serious enemies without really engaging them), I think Ganon would hand Cloud his ass.
That's like asking if Cloud could beat Bowser. OF FRIGGING COURSE HE COULD.
Look, I'm not trying to downplay Link here, but the two universes just don't match up in power level. Really, Link can only beat Ganon because of his sword. Give that sword to Cloud, and wam bam thank you mam, Ganon is dead. Omnislash with the Master Sword? Cloud beats Ganon in 2 seconds flat.
Sure, against Ganon, no Master Sword = Cloud down for the count
But no Master Sword also = Link down for the count vs Ganon.
/thread
Funny how that never works.
Sure, against Ganon, no Master Sword = Cloud down for the count
But no Master Sword also = Link down for the count vs Ganon.
Well for that matter, against Seph, wouldn't Cloud lose without his Seven-Part Sword trick, or whatever that was? As I recall, Seph was running Cloud into the ground just playing with him up until Cloud pulled off his little seven-sword trick.
That wasn't leaping buildings. That was achieving near orbit.
The final fight, on the old Shinra building. No pushes from friends, and he's hopping all over.
Though it's fanwank, that's probably because Cloud is basically drugged up to the eyeballs with Power Sources, Agility Sources, and all the other stuff he got by morphing the enemies in the Gelnika in 7. The jump in ability is VERY drastic, after all.
PS: Also, interestingly, the less tools we allow, the stronger Cloud becomes, and the more stuff we allow, the stronger Link grows. In the extremes, Cloud is crushing Young Link with his puny Kokiri Sword and Deku Shield, and on the other side, Link is laughing Knights of the Round and Omnislash off with Nayru's Love and toasting Cloud with Din's Fire or the Fierce Deity Mask's Double Helix Sword's energy blasts.
Funny how that never works.
Yeah, I know. If I really thought it would work, I'd just sig it and leave it at that.
Well for that matter, against Seph, wouldn't Cloud lose without his Seven-Part Sword trick, or whatever that was? As I recall, Seph was running Cloud into the ground just playing with him up until Cloud pulled off his little seven-sword trick.
I don't know about "running Cloud into the ground", but you do have a point.
Then again, you have to remember that Cloud in Advent Children =/= Cloud at the end of FF7. Sure, he has a cool new sword, and actually moves a bit more, but he doesn't have ANY materia. Not one piece. Give him his Materia and that Cloud v Sephiroth fight at the end of Advent Children would have been much, much different.
(Then again, overall, the presentation of Materia in Advent Children was, IMHO, very different than how it was used in FF7 the video game)
I really don't see Link performing any better in that situation. Can Link move like Cloud did in that battle? Can Link cut apart building like Cloud did? Do you really think Link could beat Sephiroth in a battle like that at the end of Advent Children?
I really don't see Link performing any better in that situation. Can Link move like Cloud did in that battle? Can Link cut apart building like Cloud did? Do you really think Link could beat Sephiroth in a battle like that at the end of Advent Children?
No, I think Seph would've eviscerated him. But I don't think Cloud would have much of a chance against Ganon, either. I'm pretty sure that would end with Cloud sealed in an astral prison or a painting or something. Just saying, I don't think 'Sephiroth beats Link' says anything about the Cloud vs. Link battle.
With a limited bag? Of course not, but then again, I'm pretty sure Cloud had twinked out his stats for the movie, which gave him a BIG edge.
...Use Nayru's, drink down some Chateau Romani, morph with the Fierce Deity mask or the Giant Mask...
You see, this is why I stopped playing Zelda games after Ocarina of Time . Majora's Mask was horrible and I wouldn't touch a GameCube with a ten foot pole. All that mask stuff and, well, "bleh" is all I can say.
Maybe you guys are right, maybe Zelda is a lot more powerful than I give him credit for.
(Too be fair to the Zelda fans, I couldn't even finish Criss Core: FFVII. What a horrible combat system. And Dirige of Cerberus, god, don't even get me started on that piece o' crap. I may be a big fan of FFVII, but I loved all the Zelda games before Majora's Mask too. )
AND NEVER MENTION THE HORROR OF THE DIRGE! THAT IS NOT EVEN A GAME! IF YOU WANT TO PLAY A SHOOTER, PLAY HALO!! Damn you....you made me remember that game existed.....
these are tears of blood, you know.Come to think of it, d20 Zelda would be neat.
Come to think of it, d20 Zelda would be neat.
As an aside, I once ran a 3.5 campaign set in a somewhat modified version of the zeldaverse. It was a TON of fun.
Back on topic, this fight really comes down to what equipment and powers each has. Heck, if you give Link the Magic Cape from a Link to the Past, he can become invulnerable to everything, to say nothing of the Red Mail (reduces all damage by 75%), Mirror Shield, medallions, and all that other stuff.
At thier absolute respective strongest, I think you could give this one to Cloud, depending on how well Link uses Nayru's Love or the Magic Cape. At their absolute respective weakest (Cloud at the start of the game vs. say, Adult Link the second he steps out of the Temple of Time in Ocarina), then I'd probably give it to Link, since he seems like a better swordsman right off the bat.
Of course, it's all irrelevant because the second they really get down to fighting, one or both of their villains will attempt to end all creation, and they'll have to break it off and try another day. :P
Twilight Princess was pretty cool, and yeah, The Zeldaverse is pretty high-powered. The Golden Land can grant wishes and reshape reality, and bona fide artifact level treasures (like the Triforce itself) are a big part of the setting.
Come to think of it, d20 Zelda would be neat.
Reminds me I have a d20 Zelda rulebook on my laptop from last year.