I want to give the guy that opened the door some awesome commendation item in-game because he tackled the guys trying to rob us. Ideas??
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Had this happened here (And I pray it never does!) it would have ended differently for the bad guys.
I simply will not see my family & friends terrorized by mindless booger-eaters who have no concept of sight picture, weapon retention, point shooting, failure drills, CQB or all the other things that take away the perceived power of their weapons.
Thankfully, the most intense gaming moment was when a player had a tantrum during a Marvel Superheroes Game & that player is no longer playing here. I won't tolerate that nonsense & I certainly wouldn't tolerate anyone threatening the safety of my home, my family & my friends.
Hope they catch those useless turds!
Dungeonmaster314
Onesite with a broken broom handle.Cop, with the same sort of collection as BN.
Just something to consider.
Weapon retention, weapon stripping & shot avoidance seem like magic to someone who isn't trained & most bad guys simply aren't trained.
In close quarter disatnce, I would be actually more at ease with the bad guy having a gun than him having a blade.
It's SO easy to strip a firearm from someone and to move in such a way that even if the gun discharges, you won't get hit.
Blades are much more difficult to manage.
With two or more bad guys, it's far more likely that when you close distance, they will end up shooting each other.
All of this is revealed through Simmunition drills or even Airsoft with good trainers.
I highly recommend checking out Shivworks and the guys from Shivworks/Southnarc who put on some of the most incredibly dynamic training courses available today.
Some of their courses aren't restricted to just LE & Military but they are expensive and they tend to fill up fast.
You will probbaly get bruised up a bit but it's just invaluable training if you want to be completely comfortable with your weapons.
Dungeonmaster314
PS
Since the OP & his friends survived through the encounter, I certainly won't say they did a single thing wrong! Well done guys! Glad you're all still with us!
It's easy to talk about what you would do. It's not nearly as easy to think about how bad your situation would really be. Unless your gun is always on you and you practice drawing it and firing constantly and in every potential position you may find yourself in, you're boned if they have a gun on you and were considering using it. Seriously, most people I know - even ones who take defensive pistol classes - have never tried shooting while sitting in a chair let alone drawing quickly and doing so. All of your advantages from what you've trained - speed, accuracy, disarming techniques, etc - are meaningless if you can't do it from a chair if that's where you find yourself when a baddy comes knockin'. Think about it like this: You have a baddy in your home. He's sitting in a chair and you have a gun on him. He makes a quick move - either getting up or reaching into a pocket. What would you do? If your answer is 'shoot the
', why on earth would you think he'd act any differently toward you when it's you in the chair and him with the pistol?Shoulda kept a shotgun next to the door and blasted them.
*shrug*
draco's assertion concerning the existence of "responsible gun owners" is rapidly losing credibility.
Shoulda kept a shotgun next to the door and blasted them.
*shrug*
draco's assertion concerning the existence of "responsible gun owners" is rapidly losing credibility.
Meh, if someone has balls enough to do a home invasion, then they have balls enough to get blasted.
Wish they would try that at my home...
I was referring more to the keeping-a-loaded-shotgun-lying-next-to-your-front-door bit.
Shoulda kept a shotgun next to the door and blasted them.
*shrug*
draco's assertion concerning the existence of "responsible gun owners" is rapidly losing credibility.
Meh, if someone has balls enough to do a home invasion, then they have balls enough to get blasted.
Wish they would try that at my home...
I was referring more to the keeping-a-loaded-shotgun-lying-next-to-your-front-door bit.
My father kept a loaded .22 under my bed so he could shoot rodents what got into the garden. There was never a problem with it being there.
(My room had windows what looked out over the backyard and garden, that's why he kept the gun there)
Just 'cause it can turn out well, dosen't mean it will.
ZB, remember the Colonel's son?
The problem with a home invasion situation is that most people don't wear their guns when they're in their homes. Couple that with the fact that they're also most often sitting down (which creates its own set of problems when it comes to drawing your weapon and shooting it properly anyway) and you have a 'bad guy is in a lot better position than you' situation. The honest truth of the matter is that your life depends on whether or not the baddy was planning to take it anyway. If he was, you have nearly no chance at all. His gun is out already - where's yours? It's a lot faster to pull a trigger than it is to get up off your ass, find your gun, retrieve it and pull the trigger. Quite simply, if he planned on shooting you and you move you're gonna get shot. If he wasn't, though? Well, you may have a shot. That's actually why these kids were ok. They probably didn't want to shoot in the first place.
It's easy to talk about what you would do. It's not nearly as easy to think about how bad your situation would really be. Unless your gun is always on you and you practice drawing it and firing constantly and in every potential position you may find yourself in, you're boned if they have a gun on you and were considering using it. Seriously, most people I know - even ones who take defensive pistol classes - have never tried shooting while sitting in a chair let alone drawing quickly and doing so. All of your advantages from what you've trained - speed, accuracy, disarming techniques, etc - are meaningless if you can't do it from a chair if that's where you find yourself when a baddy comes knockin'. Think about it like this: You have a baddy in your home. He's sitting in a chair and you have a gun on him. He makes a quick move - either getting up or reaching into a pocket. What would you do? If your answer is 'shoot the
This is why I suggest the Shivworks/Southnarc training program. Their program and a few others like it, have you shooting from every position you can imagine. It's reality based & were it any more real, they'd be using live ammo & we know that's not a good idea.
Most shooting classes involve folks shooting from a standing position at stationary targets, usually in the form of silhouettes. Any hits within the preferred are (The whole silhouette) are considered passing.
Even Ohio Police qualifications were changed up recently. We still use silhouttes but that preferred area has been made much smaller in order to score a pass.
Each stage also has movement involved. (By the shooter.) A moderate improvement but I certainly am glad to see the demand for tighter groups. Under stress, you're just not gonna be as accurate as you were on the range.
Which is why I prefer "force on force" training using Simmuntion Training Rounds or at least Airsoft. This provides what is known as "stress inoculation"
One thing I know, if you remain sitting in your chair, if they have decided to kill you, then you will be likely be dead.
So I say move. Hard & fast and commit to the action. Attack or run away but MOVE. (Kudos to the OP & his friends for committing to their action!)
Does anyone remember where those two scumbags robbed that lady down in Georgia? These guys tried to rob this woman and they threatened to kill her 13 month old baby. Well things weren't going the way they wanted, (She didn't have any money on her.) so they shot her first, only grazing her ear. (Not sure how or even if she was moving.)
Well to make their point, one of them shot her baby dead in his stroller.
During the Columbine incident, most of the people who survived being wounded were moving targets. (Running in the halls etc.) The ones that died were hiding under desks.
In Virgina Tech, they found several victims who had been shot through their hands as they covered their faces.
But you need to MOVE & keep moving!
Again, I'm not saying the OP and his friends did a single thing wrong. Getting out of the house is the best option for anyone who doesn't have the tools or training to deal with this situation.
One thing I did when I got ready for work was read this poem by G.K. Chesterton called, "The Last Hero"
The wind blew out from Bergen from the dawning to the day,
There was a wreck of trees and fall of towers a score of miles away,
And drifted like a livid leaf I go before its tide,
Spewed out of house and stable, beggared of flag and bride.
The heavens are bowed about my head, shouting like seraph wars,
With rains that might put out the sun and clean the sky of stars,
Rains like the fall of ruined seas from secret worlds above,
The roaring of the rains of God none but the lonely love.
Feast in my hall, O foemen, and eat and drink and drain,
You never loved the sun in heaven as I have loved the rain.The chance of battle changes -- so may all battle be;
I stole my lady bride from them, they stole her back from me.
I rent her from her red-roofed hall, I rode and saw arise,
More lovely than the living flowers the hatred in her eyes.
She never loved me, never bent, never was less divine;
The sunset never loved me, the wind was never mine.
Was it all nothing that she stood imperial in duresse?
Silence itself made softer with the sweeping of her dress.
O you who drain the cup of life, O you who wear the crown,
You never loved a woman's smile as I have loved her frown.The wind blew out from Bergen to the dawning of the day,
They ride and run with fifty spears to break and bar my way,
I shall not die alone, alone, but kin to all the powers,
As merry as the ancient sun and fighting like the flowers.
How white their steel, how bright their eyes! I love each laughing knave,
Cry high and bid him welcome to the banquet of the brave.
Yea, I will bless them as they bend and love them where they lie,
When on their skulls the sword I swing falls shattering from the sky.
The hour when death is like a light and blood is like a rose, --
You never loved your friends, my friends, as I shall love my foes.Know you what earth shall lose to-night, what rich uncounted loans,
What heavy gold of tales untold you bury with my bones?
My loves in deep dim meadows, my ships that rode at ease,
Ruffling the purple plumage of strange and secret seas.
To see this fair earth as it is to me alone was given,
The blow that breaks my brow to-night shall break the dome of heaven.
The skies I saw, the trees I saw after no eyes shall see,
To-night I die the death of God; the stars shall die with me;
One sound shall sunder all the spears and break the trumpet's breath:
You never laughed in all your life as I shall laugh in death.
This poem is certainly fatalistic but to me it also expresses the warrior's acceptance of his purpose. In no way is he going down easy. He's not giving up but he also knows that his endeavor is going to be his last.
These days, if someone sticks a gun in your face & demands your cash, you almost have to believe they're gonna kill you regardless.
I think anyone who has made the decision to be a soldier, a police officer or just carry/own a firearm for personal protection should first & foremost, train like your life depends on it because it does and they should prepare mentally for that day if it ever comes.
Read Dave Grossman's books "On Killing" and "On Combat" and also read Rory Miller's books, "Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence", "Scaling Force: Dynamic Decision Making Under Threat of Violence" and "Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected."
I've had the privelege of training and talking with both of these guys and let me say, they know their business. Rory really gets in your face about the reality of fighting and the consequences after.
(Look at George Zimmerman's case which had the nation in an uproar after he shot an "unarmed" teenager.)
No one is unarmed if they have hands & feet and the will to kill you with them.
More people are permanently injured and killed with personal weapons (hands & feet) than firearms in this country.
Now as to the OP's scenario.
As I said before, it would have had a different outcome at my house. I won't discuss specific tools and tactics on here. It's not the place for it really. But I know what I can & can't do, what my wife can & can't do and I'm confident in our training & abilities.
I can't begin to imagine what a violation like this must feel like for the OP & his friends.
Your home is the one place where you need to feel safe & secure. The place where you can shut out all the ugliness of the world & just play some Dungeons & Dragons!
I've prepared myself & my family to the best of my ability. I have the tools I need and I have made my decision on how I would face this situation if it ever happened here. (Again, I fervently pray it never does.)
Dungeonmaster314
So, now we're at two murders.
That is incorrect. It could count as a suicide if the loss of blood was too great for the human following J2C's advice. Therefore the classifications of death are variable.
So, now we're at two murders.
That is incorrect. It could count as a suicide if the loss of blood was too great for the human following J2C's advice. Therefore the classifications of death are variable.
Touche.
Gimmie your dice!!
Gimmie your dice!!
gimme YOUR dice
Gimmie your dice!!
gimme YOUR dice
Whoa man, it was just a joke, chill!
Gimmie your dice!!
gimme YOUR dice
Glock, eh? Good man. ;)
Gimmie your dice!!
gimme YOUR dice
Glock, eh? Good man. ;)
19
the best a man can getHeh, I don't have a 19. I have a 27 with a Lone Wolf conversion barrel sos I can shoot it in 9mm, too, and a 29. Real men have 10mms.
you know .40cal is actually a 10mm but shortened because female agents had trouble firing it?
you know .40cal is actually a 10mm but shortened because female agents had trouble firing it?
It wasn't just the females that had the trouble. ;) Jeff Cooper created 10mm for the FBI and they whined about it being too powerful. They asked for a reduced power cartridge and S&W swooped in before anyone else with the .40 and the rest is history. We always call .40 Smith and Wesson '.40 Short and Weak'. ;) You can actually buy 10mm today that is loaded with less power to mimic the .40. They're called FBI loads. Lame. Why would you ever use those? I mean, I have a 10mm cuz it's literally twice as powerful as a 9mm. No need to make it all weak an' stuff, yanno? Kinda like loading a .45 with anything smaller that 230 grains. Defeats the purpose.
EDIT: And all this does is prove the FBI can't shoot. I carry the smallest 10mm Glock makes and I can literall shoot it with a 2 fingered grip (thumb and index only) and do so very, very accurately at defensive pistol ranges. If 10mm is too much for ya it's time to quit shootin'.
Now I feel bad for getting a Glock 22...
Ha-ha! Look at the wimpy girly man with his wimpy man cartridge!
Srsly, though. There's no reason to feel bad, brah. You own a Glock and that's all you need.
They're basically the AK47 of the pistol world.
You have to put up with a smelly Russian to get one?
Loose tolerances and no extra crap to hang you up. They'll eat anything you run in 'em and never have an issue. They're also the easiest pistols to disassemble by quite a ways. Simple, efficient, reliable - there's a reason that their slogan is simply 'Perfection'. ;)
Yeah, ease of disassembly is big for me.
You have to put up with a smelly Russian to get one?
Most AK47s owned in the States are not Russian made. In fact, if you can get a true Russian AK47 you're lookin' at big bucks in comparison. My Russian SKS, for example, is worth more than the standard stuff you find here. Better made.
Yeah, ease of disassembly is big for me.
You can take the entire pistol apart with a ballpoint pen. How's that for easy?
Seriously, I've taken the slide assemblies of both of mine apart more than once. It's a job that takes minutes - disassemble, clean, reassemble. If you wanna do that with an XD (also a fine gun)? Send it to the factory. You have to put up with a smelly Russian to get one?
Most AK47s owned in the States are not Russian made. In fact, if you can get a true Russian AK47 you're lookin' at big bucks in comparison. My Russian SKS, for example, is worth more than the standard stuff you find here. Better made.
I know, I just saw a good opportunity for silliness.
Yeah, ease of disassembly is big for me.
You can take the entire pistol apart with a ballpoint pen. How's that for easy?
Not ideal.
I know, I just saw a good opportunity for silliness.
Well, you could have at least tried to be funny about it. ;)
Not ideal.
I know, right? Pens are way too expensive to be used as tools.
I know, I just saw a good opportunity for silliness.
Well, you could have at least tried to be funny about it. ;)
I could've, but I couldn't think of anything funny.
Not ideal.
I know, right? Pens are way too expensive to be used as tools.
Yep. I should be able to disassemble it with a piece of scrap paper, and have that paper stay unwrinkled and usable. Otherwise I'm leaking $.
The only thing I don't like about 'em is the grip safety. Stoopid. Other than that? Really good guns and very accurate.
What other safeties do they have?
None. Well, they have internal safeties but that's all. Only single action pistols need external safeties.
Really? I thought most handguns had a grip safety as well as a "switch" near the mag release.
No safety, no hammer, no misfires. You squeeze, you release. Every time. Perfection.
<<< Glock 19 owner
only thing wrong with xd's is a higher bore axis, more safeties=more things to malfunction, and the weird way they strip down but for 200 dollars cheaper you get a gun ALMOST as good as a glock. The XDM9 is my favorite pistol actually
Glocks have a trigger safety. You depress the safety and the trigger at the same time. Lots of people don't like em, but the truth is, you shouldn't have your finger inside of the trigger guard unless you have full muzzle control, and you never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. The safety is just there to prevent drop-firing and similar uncontrolled releases.
No safety, no hammer, no misfires. You squeeze, you release. Every time. Perfection.
<<< Glock 19 owner
100% agree.
Really? I thought most handguns had a grip safety as well as a "switch" near the mag release.
Yep, really. A mechanical safety should serve a mechanical purpose. If there's no need for one, one should not be present. It's just clutter. When you're talking about a defensive weapon, unneeded extras could well be a death sentence.
Grip safeties are intended to ensure the shooter has a proper grip on the gun. Unfortunately, having a proper grip isn't something you're guaranteed to have in a situation that calls for defensive use. This renders your gun an expensive brick and of about as much use. That's why I don't like them. Magazine disconnects are also stupid. They prevent the gun from being fired if the magazine has been removed. That's great ... unless in a struggle either you or the baddy accidentally drop your mag. Then, once again, the gun is turned into an expensive brick. Stupid. If your mag gets dropped you should still be able to fire that one round in the chamber. Another dumb ass thing is a loaded chamber indicator. You should always, always inspect the chamber to determine whether the gun is loaded or not. Relying on some stupid tab to tell you is just not a real option. They actually, IMO, make guns more dangerous. But yeah, Glocks don't have any of that garbage because Glocks are built to save your ass if you need them.
And don't forget: If you have a mechanical anything, it can fail. Adding more mechanical crap means you're adding more crap that can go wrong.
Glocks have a trigger safety. You depress the safety and the trigger at the same time. Lots of people don't like em, but the truth is, you shouldn't have your finger inside of the trigger guard unless you have full muzzle control, and you never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. The safety is just there to prevent drop-firing and similar uncontrolled releases.
No safety, no hammer, no misfires. You squeeze, you release. Every time. Perfection.
<<< Glock 19 owner
They also have a striker block. It's literally physically impossible for a Glock in working order to discharge without the trigger being depressed. They actually test them with a process called a 'frisbee test' - which works pretty much exactly as it sounds. They don't fire if you drop them. A piece of metal physically blocks the striker from engaging the primer. It's lifted out of the way when the trigger is pulled.
And that's one reason why you don't need an external safety. The thing can't go off unless you intend it to go off.
xd's (which I love) have a grip, trigger, drop, and switch safety lol almost too many, glocks have a trigger and drop safety in the newer ones I believe
only thing wrong with xd's is a higher bore axis, more safeties=more things to malfunction, and the weird way they strip down but for 200 dollars cheaper you get a gun ALMOST as good as a glock. The XDM9 is my favorite pistol actually
XDs really are great. I'd even consider carrying one if they didn't have all of the extra stuff. When I was considering doing private lessons I was going to buy one to rent out. Cheapish, accurate, easy to use and uber reliable. They only have one major problem (the other stuff isn't a huge deal): They're not a Glock. ;)
And don't forget: If you have a mechanical anything, it can fail. Adding more mechanical crap means you're adding more crap that can go wrong.
This is a very important rule. I tried looking up online the gun safety rules I learned when I took Hunter's Safety classes some 15 years ago, and I couldn't find that one. I suppose it is probably subsumed into the rule of "never point your gun at anything or anyone you don't want to shoot".
Never trust your life solely to a mechanical safety. Avoid line of fire regardless of design. And that goes for EVERYTHING, not just gun safety.
The XDM I looked at was a 10mm, but I just didn't like the damn thing. It was short-barreled for easier concealment, but I don't plan to conceal it. It was $698 (plus tax) - the Glock 22 I looked at was $520 (plus tax). Those are both in favor of the Glock - but here's the kicker: I got to test fire a 22 that a friend had, and buy the same one I fired for $500 straight. And there's no paperwork to fill out.
Yeah, that's a no-brainer. My buddy picked up a 21 for around the same price. He went to shop wanting a .45 and there it was. He asked no questions and bought it immediately. Great decision. I shot it over the weekend and it's just as accurate as most 1911s without all the annoyin' bells an' whistles ... plus it holds a lot more ammo. ;)
Thanks for the help, ZB.
NP. I don't know much about much but I know a lot about this stuff.
This is a very important rule. I tried looking up online the gun safety rules I learned when I took Hunter's Safety classes some 15 years ago, and I couldn't find that one. I suppose it is probably subsumed into the rule of "never point your gun at anything or anyone you don't want to shoot".
Never trust your life solely to a mechanical safety. Avoid line of fire regardless of design. And that goes for EVERYTHING, not just gun safety.
The 4 main rules are:
1) All guns are always loaded.
2) Always point the gun in a safe direction (aka: Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to kill or destroy.)
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire.
4) Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.
The NRA dropped rule #1 for some reason. It's no longer required to teach that rule when teaching Basic Pistol 1 - which, in Ohio, is one of the courses you can take to qualify for a CCW certificate (with some other stuff added on). Unfortunate, IMO. So I make sure I teach that rule.
And anyways. I really thought somebody would correct me on the fact that theyre really not made of plastic, its advanced space-age polymers. But it does feel alot like plastic.
Well, I used to be a kid, and my dad used to be an avid gun collector, and no matter where he hid his guns or where he had them locked up at I still found away to get to em.
Uhhh....youir dad sounds kind of incompetent, no offense.
Because we know you.
Its in a kids nature to get at dad's gun and play with it because said kid knows its a no no. I would play with my dads 22 all the time pretending to be a sniper, I also knew where the ammo was hidden but I never dared load it.
And? Your dad should have kept the gun away from you. It may be "in a kid's nature" but that dosen't een come close to excusing someone who lets it happen knowingly. (Not saying your dad did).
Its in a kids nature to get at dad's gun and play with it because said kid knows its a no no. I would play with my dads 22 all the time pretending to be a sniper, I also knew where the ammo was hidden but I never dared load it.
And? Your dad should have kept the gun away from you. It may be "in a kid's nature" but that dosen't een come close to excusing someone who lets it happen knowingly. (Not saying your dad did).
Oh I agree, he didn't think I knew where they were but I did. They need to be locked up or not in the house with children at all.
Its in a kids nature to get at dad's gun and play with it because said kid knows its a no no. I would play with my dads 22 all the time pretending to be a sniper, I also knew where the ammo was hidden but I never dared load it.
And? Your dad should have kept the gun away from you. It may be "in a kid's nature" but that dosen't een come close to excusing someone who lets it happen knowingly. (Not saying your dad did).
Oh I agree, he didn't think I knew where they were but I did. They need to be locked up or not in the house with children at all.
Oh, I misunderstood you. You must have been a terrible rascal as a young'un!
I went shooting a couple nights ago. Didn't do too badly... Especially considering the fact that is only let off 15 rounds in the previous 20 years.
My faith in rent-a-cops ability to keep us safe has been restored.
or some variation?
Its in a kids nature to get at dad's gun and play with it because said kid knows its a no no. I would play with my dads 22 all the time pretending to be a sniper, I also knew where the ammo was hidden but I never dared load it.
And? Your dad should have kept the gun away from you. It may be "in a kid's nature" but that dosen't een come close to excusing someone who lets it happen knowingly. (Not saying your dad did).
Oh I agree, he didn't think I knew where they were but I did. They need to be locked up or not in the house with children at all.
Oh, I misunderstood you. You must have been a terrible rascal as a young'un!
Oh yes I was a bad one.
I really want to shoot his old .303 Lee Enfield rifle (boy that sonofabitch is heavy!), but I think it only takes .303 british. Dad says regular .303 won't fit right.
My Pa says he can't find .22 ammo anywhere. He says people are stockpiling it.
Why would people be stockpiling .22 ammo?
I really want to shoot his old .303 Lee Enfield rifle (boy that sonofabitch is heavy!), but I think it only takes .303 british. Dad says regular .303 won't fit right.
I have a friend that gave one of those to my cousin for Christmas one year. I got to fire it a few times. Whoever owned it originally had modified it a bit. It was still a pretty nice rifle.
xd's (which I love) have a grip, trigger, drop, and switch safety lol almost too many, glocks have a trigger and drop safety in the newer ones I believe
only thing wrong with xd's is a higher bore axis, more safeties=more things to malfunction, and the weird way they strip down but for 200 dollars cheaper you get a gun ALMOST as good as a glock. The XDM9 is my favorite pistol actually
I love my XDM. There's no switch safety, just a grip and trigger safety. It strips down very easily and was pretty cheap for the gun and the accessories that it comes with.
I really want to shoot his old .303 Lee Enfield rifle (boy that sonofabitch is heavy!), but I think it only takes .303 british. Dad says regular .303 won't fit right.
I have a bit of a passion for the ol' No. 4. Or any Lee-Enfield, really. Yeah, your dad is right on the ammo, IIRC. .303 British must be hard to find.
On a side note, does anyone else remember that scene from 24 Redemption where he took down a chopper with one round from a Lee-Enfield?