Shipwrecks - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Shipwrecks

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Shiftkitty
Jun 04, 2009 17:56:25 I enjoy archaeology of all sorts. I really enjoy it when a great discovery is made in an ancient land and it stays there. To me, it's an important part of a nation's cultural identity. Unless a nation agrees to send artifacts to another nation whether for a tour (Treasures of King Tut, the Dresden Exhibit, etc.) or for permanent exhibition (the Rosicrucian Museum in Santa Clara), I feel the treasures of such finds should stay with the people who inhabit the land they were found in.

But with shipwrecks, I feel a little differently. If the wreck is inside of a nation's boundaries, it should belong to that nation. If it's in international waters, I'm inclined to say "finders, keepers." I don't feel the same way about human remains, mind you. I think they should be repatriated if possible.

What about you guys?
#2
dirtyfrank
Jun 04, 2009 18:05:49 Belongs to the person that found it and those backing the team. Exceptions would be if they had to get special permission to do their stuff. Basically if they can only dig because the Government of the country they're digging in says they can then I say that the Government has the first rights to the claim. If a Government doesn't require such permission for someone to dig then I feel that the said government has given up their rights to claim anything found. At least this is kind of how I think it should be.
#3
pigknight
Jun 04, 2009 18:19:24 Arrr, ship wrecks be like high school, full o' delicious booty. I say, let the land lubber that found eet be the one that keeps it. Arrrr.
#4
The_White_Sorcerer
Jun 04, 2009 23:13:46
I feel the treasures of such finds should stay with the people who inhabit the land they were found in.

If the wreck is inside of a nation's boundaries, it should belong to that nation.

I'm confused. How are these two different?
#5
That_Blasted_Somoflange
Jun 05, 2009 11:41:04 I just need to take a moment to use a quote from Indiana Jones that is underused:

"It belongs in a museum!"

That is all.
#6
Shiftkitty
Jun 05, 2009 13:27:07
I'm confused. How are these two different?

If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Greece's boundaries, it belongs to Greece. If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Egypt's, it belongs to Egypt (unless Greece wishes to negotiate with Egypt to get it back).

Somoflange But should the person who actually retrieved it receive any compensation?

Also, here's a RW "archaeological" situation for you. A couple bought a house that once belonged to Colonel Sanders. While clearing out some stuff in the basement, they found an old container that held the Colonel's original notes on his "11 herbs and spices". BIG coporate secret. KFC wanted the notes, citing that they were property of the corporation. The couple insisted that they had bought the house lock, stock, and barrel, and that the notes were legally theirs.

Putting aside any prejudices you may have against corporations, how do you rule? The notes are clearly the Colonel's. They were written shortly after he started his restaurants but before the final recipe was concocted, so there's no question to the timing or intent of the notes.

I say the notes belong to the people who bought the house. They bought the house with everything inside. Water pipes, debris, paint, rugs, etc. I say it's theirs, but I also say it would be classy to give the notes to KFC, or sell them to them at a reasonable price.

I don't recall how that one worked out. I'll have to look.
#7
zombie_babies
Jun 05, 2009 13:39:12 Well, shipwrecks are a sticky issue. See, if you're a salvage company and you locate a wreck in open waters, it's up to you to furnish proof of which vessel it is to (what I believe) international court. Once you prove what you found and where it is, it's all yours. That means that gold lost by a Spanish vessel can be claimed by any country so long as it is not found within Spanish waters. Or something. Just because a ship has a certain origin it does not automatically mean that that nation can claim it. They, of course, can try. If it's a ship of war you're after, you have even more to worry about. There'd be a lot of wreck hunters and salvage operators out of business if all a nation had to do was say that a ship was theirs to prevent anyone from removing items from it.

EDIT: There's a fascinating series on Discovery called Treasure Quest that not only shows you the basic operations of a publicly owned salvage company, but also some of the political crap that needs to be done in order to claim your prize. Good stuff.
#8
The_White_Sorcerer
Jun 07, 2009 0:06:32
If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Greece's boundaries, it belongs to Greece. If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Egypt's, it belongs to Egypt (unless Greece wishes to negotiate with Egypt to get it back).

I understand that. How is it different from

I feel the treasures of such finds should stay with the people who inhabit the land they were found in.

?
#9
Shiftkitty
Jun 07, 2009 10:10:45 It's withing the legal boundaries of the country in which it was found. Grecian shipwreck found in Grecian waters stays in Greece. Grecian shipwreck found in Egyptian waters stay in Egypt.

Egyptian tomb found in Egypt by the British stays in Egypt. It used to be that great archaeological finds were dug up by people, often foreigners, who would then haul these finds back to their home countries, i.e., Egyptian tomb found in Egypt by the British gets hauled back to England. I felt it a disservice to the people in whose countries those finds were discovered. Now I think they stay in their respective countries, which can probably get tricky with the way borders have shifted over the generations.

Part of what prompted this was a news story in which a team found a Spanish shipwreck in international waters, waters that no one nation had the sole right to. There was no mention of any special historical significance to the find, or that the team was compensated for their efforts. They had to give everything they'd brought up to Spain, especially the 1.5 million dollars of gold. I thought it was wrong. It would have been different if they'd have found it Spanish waters, but it was essentially in the middle of no man's land.

Oddly, this may also have a D&D tie in. Your adventurers clear out this dungeon in the middle of nowhere. They come to town to liquidate some of their goodies and some sage recognizes the fighter's favorite sword as the Great Blade of Justice and Mercy once carried by their great cultural hero, King Oriniir the Wise. The kingdom wants this legendary artifact (note the small 'a') returned to its rightful owners, but the fighter really likes this blade and is planning on having it enchanted. It fits in his hand like it was made for him. but King Oriniir the Wise is the sort of hero that people grow up hearing legends about him their whole lives and try to follow his example, he's that big of a hero to them. How do you resolve it, as the party?
#10
The_White_Sorcerer
Jun 07, 2009 10:33:56
It's withing the legal boundaries of the country in which it was found. Grecian shipwreck found in Grecian waters stays in Greece. Grecian shipwreck found in Egyptian waters stay in Egypt.

Aye, I understood that from the original post. You claimed that felt differently about shipwrecks than land-based artefacts. However, from what I read in your post it seems that your feelings about both are "It was found in Nation X, it belongs to Nation X." Is there a difference I'm missing?
#11
Shiftkitty
Jun 08, 2009 8:59:09 There has been a trend of nations deciding that if a shipwreck was found insomeone else's waters, that it should, by default, be returned to the nation it was originally from. This is what I disagree with.

Part of what prompted this post was a team that found a Spanish shipwreck in international waters. Spain hadn't even been looking for this ship. But now that someone found it, some court decided that the team had to return the whole treasure haul, something like $1.5 million in gold, to Spain. I have no word if the team was compensated at all for their efforts. I thought that was a terrible ruling.

Now, Titanic was one that people were actively searching for, so it's a different case. But this was a forgotten wreck that Spain had expressed no interest in even when the ship had been declared located. It wasn't until the money showed up.

Makes me wonder who is going to continue looking for these ships if that's how it goes? Sometimes you find some great historical artifacts, sometimes not. But who's going to take the chance if they have to give it away regardless?
#12
The_White_Sorcerer
Jun 08, 2009 13:07:17
There has been a trend of nations deciding that if a shipwreck was found insomeone else's waters, that it should, by default, be returned to the nation it was originally from. This is what I disagree with.

Already got that. I am not illiterate. Could you now please answer my question, because I'd really like to know?
#13
Shiftkitty
Jun 08, 2009 15:04:22 When a ship is bearing the flag of a nation, or is recognized as being of a particular nation, the ship itself is considered part of that nation, as if the sovereign ground of that nation has been put to sea. Technically, a Grecian ship that sinks in Egyptian waters is a part of Greece. The artifacts found on the ship are technically still in Greece.

Sorry about misunderstanding your misunderstanding. I posted the same discussion on another board where we discuss such things regularly. I sometimes forget to clarify things like that on general boards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Shiftkitty Jun 04, 2009 17:56:25	I enjoy archaeology of all sorts. I really enjoy it when a great discovery is made in an ancient land and it stays there. To me, it's an important part of a nation's cultural identity. Unless a nation agrees to send artifacts to another nation whether for a tour (Treasures of King Tut, the Dresden Exhibit, etc.) or for permanent exhibition (the Rosicrucian Museum in Santa Clara), I feel the treasures of such finds should stay with the people who inhabit the land they were found in. But with shipwrecks, I feel a little differently. If the wreck is inside of a nation's boundaries, it should belong to that nation. If it's in international waters, I'm inclined to say "finders, keepers." I don't feel the same way about human remains, mind you. I think they should be repatriated if possible. What about you guys?
#2 dirtyfrank Jun 04, 2009 18:05:49	Belongs to the person that found it and those backing the team. Exceptions would be if they had to get special permission to do their stuff. Basically if they can only dig because the Government of the country they're digging in says they can then I say that the Government has the first rights to the claim. If a Government doesn't require such permission for someone to dig then I feel that the said government has given up their rights to claim anything found. At least this is kind of how I think it should be.
#3 pigknight Jun 04, 2009 18:19:24	Arrr, ship wrecks be like high school, full o' delicious booty. I say, let the land lubber that found eet be the one that keeps it. Arrrr.
#4 The_White_Sorcerer Jun 04, 2009 23:13:46	I feel the treasures of such finds should stay with the people who inhabit the land they were found in. If the wreck is inside of a nation's boundaries, it should belong to that nation. I'm confused. How are these two different?
#5 That_Blasted_Somoflange Jun 05, 2009 11:41:04	I just need to take a moment to use a quote from Indiana Jones that is underused: "It belongs in a museum!" That is all.
#6 Shiftkitty Jun 05, 2009 13:27:07	I'm confused. How are these two different? If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Greece's boundaries, it belongs to Greece. If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Egypt's, it belongs to Egypt (unless Greece wishes to negotiate with Egypt to get it back). Somoflange But should the person who actually retrieved it receive any compensation? Also, here's a RW "archaeological" situation for you. A couple bought a house that once belonged to Colonel Sanders. While clearing out some stuff in the basement, they found an old container that held the Colonel's original notes on his "11 herbs and spices". BIG coporate secret. KFC wanted the notes, citing that they were property of the corporation. The couple insisted that they had bought the house lock, stock, and barrel, and that the notes were legally theirs. Putting aside any prejudices you may have against corporations, how do you rule? The notes are clearly the Colonel's. They were written shortly after he started his restaurants but before the final recipe was concocted, so there's no question to the timing or intent of the notes. I say the notes belong to the people who bought the house. They bought the house with everything inside. Water pipes, debris, paint, rugs, etc. I say it's theirs, but I also say it would be classy to give the notes to KFC, or sell them to them at a reasonable price. I don't recall how that one worked out. I'll have to look.
#7 zombie_babies Jun 05, 2009 13:39:12	Well, shipwrecks are a sticky issue. See, if you're a salvage company and you locate a wreck in open waters, it's up to you to furnish proof of which vessel it is to (what I believe) international court. Once you prove what you found and where it is, it's all yours. That means that gold lost by a Spanish vessel can be claimed by any country so long as it is not found within Spanish waters. Or something. Just because a ship has a certain origin it does not automatically mean that that nation can claim it. They, of course, can try. If it's a ship of war you're after, you have even more to worry about. There'd be a lot of wreck hunters and salvage operators out of business if all a nation had to do was say that a ship was theirs to prevent anyone from removing items from it. EDIT: There's a fascinating series on Discovery called Treasure Quest that not only shows you the basic operations of a publicly owned salvage company, but also some of the political crap that needs to be done in order to claim your prize. Good stuff.
#8 The_White_Sorcerer Jun 07, 2009 0:06:32	If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Greece's boundaries, it belongs to Greece. If a Grecian shipwreck is found within Egypt's, it belongs to Egypt (unless Greece wishes to negotiate with Egypt to get it back). I understand that. How is it different from I feel the treasures of such finds should stay with the people who inhabit the land they were found in. ?
#9 Shiftkitty Jun 07, 2009 10:10:45	It's withing the legal boundaries of the country in which it was found. Grecian shipwreck found in Grecian waters stays in Greece. Grecian shipwreck found in Egyptian waters stay in Egypt. Egyptian tomb found in Egypt by the British stays in Egypt. It used to be that great archaeological finds were dug up by people, often foreigners, who would then haul these finds back to their home countries, i.e., Egyptian tomb found in Egypt by the British gets hauled back to England. I felt it a disservice to the people in whose countries those finds were discovered. Now I think they stay in their respective countries, which can probably get tricky with the way borders have shifted over the generations. Part of what prompted this was a news story in which a team found a Spanish shipwreck in international waters, waters that no one nation had the sole right to. There was no mention of any special historical significance to the find, or that the team was compensated for their efforts. They had to give everything they'd brought up to Spain, especially the 1.5 million dollars of gold. I thought it was wrong. It would have been different if they'd have found it Spanish waters, but it was essentially in the middle of no man's land. Oddly, this may also have a D&D tie in. Your adventurers clear out this dungeon in the middle of nowhere. They come to town to liquidate some of their goodies and some sage recognizes the fighter's favorite sword as the Great Blade of Justice and Mercy once carried by their great cultural hero, King Oriniir the Wise. The kingdom wants this legendary artifact (note the small 'a') returned to its rightful owners, but the fighter really likes this blade and is planning on having it enchanted. It fits in his hand like it was made for him. but King Oriniir the Wise is the sort of hero that people grow up hearing legends about him their whole lives and try to follow his example, he's that big of a hero to them. How do you resolve it, as the party?
#10 The_White_Sorcerer Jun 07, 2009 10:33:56	It's withing the legal boundaries of the country in which it was found. Grecian shipwreck found in Grecian waters stays in Greece. Grecian shipwreck found in Egyptian waters stay in Egypt. Aye, I understood that from the original post. You claimed that felt differently about shipwrecks than land-based artefacts. However, from what I read in your post it seems that your feelings about both are "It was found in Nation X, it belongs to Nation X." Is there a difference I'm missing?
#11 Shiftkitty Jun 08, 2009 8:59:09	There has been a trend of nations deciding that if a shipwreck was found insomeone else's waters, that it should, by default, be returned to the nation it was originally from. This is what I disagree with. Part of what prompted this post was a team that found a Spanish shipwreck in international waters. Spain hadn't even been looking for this ship. But now that someone found it, some court decided that the team had to return the whole treasure haul, something like $1.5 million in gold, to Spain. I have no word if the team was compensated at all for their efforts. I thought that was a terrible ruling. Now, Titanic was one that people were actively searching for, so it's a different case. But this was a forgotten wreck that Spain had expressed no interest in even when the ship had been declared located. It wasn't until the money showed up. Makes me wonder who is going to continue looking for these ships if that's how it goes? Sometimes you find some great historical artifacts, sometimes not. But who's going to take the chance if they have to give it away regardless?
#12 The_White_Sorcerer Jun 08, 2009 13:07:17	There has been a trend of nations deciding that if a shipwreck was found insomeone else's waters, that it should, by default, be returned to the nation it was originally from. This is what I disagree with. Already got that. I am not illiterate. Could you now please answer my question, because I'd really like to know?
#13 Shiftkitty Jun 08, 2009 15:04:22	When a ship is bearing the flag of a nation, or is recognized as being of a particular nation, the ship itself is considered part of that nation, as if the sovereign ground of that nation has been put to sea. Technically, a Grecian ship that sinks in Egyptian waters is a part of Greece. The artifacts found on the ship are technically still in Greece. Sorry about misunderstanding your misunderstanding. I posted the same discussion on another board where we discuss such things regularly. I sometimes forget to clarify things like that on general boards.