Love the Shaman class in OA but it needs some work.. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Love the Shaman class in OA but it needs some work..

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jamsession
Jan 08, 2012 16:20:24
So I am looking to create a necromancer/druid type character, and I found that the best representation of this was the Shaman class in Oriental Adventures 3.0 (pg23). However, there are some things that need to be fixed to bring it up to speed with 3.5.

Most if not all of the classes featured in the book were converted to 3.5 (Samurai, Ninja, Wu jen, Shugenja, etc.). The closest thing I could find to what the Shaman was converted to was the Spirit Shaman (CompleteDivine15), but it is a drastically different class than the one described in OA. Some of the features are easy fixes. Obviously the 'animal companion' feature of the OA Shaman would convert to the 3.5 rules, and the Errata guide says that, in addition to more spells, the Shaman also recieves the unarmed damage progression of the Monk. However the class skills conversion seems...well kind of a screw-me-over (I mean, come on, what the hell is the difference between Knowledge(religion) and Knowledge (spirits) anyway? And additionally I would lose Scry as a class skill as it does not exist in 3.5). I believe the authors tried to correct this with the Spirit Shaman by being a little more generous with the overall class skills.

My other concern is that since OA did not have a 3.5 version released, it was not mentioned in any of the expansion books (Complete Champion, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, etc.). This was something else that the authors seemed to try and fix by giving the Spirit Shaman access to the same spells as the Druid. It doesn't seem exactly fair that every other class gets access to expansion matieral but not the OA Shaman simply because the class wasn't updated in more or less the same form.

So my proposal to make the OA Shaman compatible with 3.5 while retaining the same essence is the following:

- Follow all established rules for 3.0 to 3.5 conversions as well as the relevant Errata.

- OA Shaman acquires the same class skills as the Spirit Shaman.

- In addition to the Shaman spells detailed in OA, the Shaman also gains access to any non-core book (i.e. everything except the Player's Handbook) spells normally available to the Druid.

Is this sound? Multiclassing for the Druidic-Necromancer character I have in mind is out of the question. So I don't want to hear any Cleric/Druid suggestions. I also have no interest in the Spirit Shaman. If I wanted to be a Shamanistic Druid, I would simply roleplay a Shaman type character while being a full fledged Druid.

Anyway, let me know. Any input on this would be great. Thanks!
#2
ashtagon
Jan 09, 2012 13:55:37 There is an old issue of Dragon magazine (before it went digital, somewhere between issue 300-360 I think) in which the entire Oriental Adventures book was erratad into 3.5e.
#3
jamsession
Jan 09, 2012 20:06:09         Yeah. I've read it, and it helps, but it still doesn't address the fact that I do not have any access to the expanded material. It doesn't seem fair since all the other classes that got converted in OA get expansion access (I'm looking at all you Shugenjas and Wu Jens out there). That's why I suggested the OA Shaman be able to, for purposes of expanded spell access, be able to cast any Druid spell that appears in the non-core books.
        Now that I've looked more into how all the 3.0 skills got changed, the 3.5 OA Shaman's class skill list should look like this:

Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (spirits), Knowledge (planes), Knowledge (nature), Profession, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft.

       Right?

        I found in the Complete Divine (p17) that a spirit is the following: all incorpreal undead, all fey, all elementals, all creatures in Astral form or with Astral bodies (but not ones present on the Astral Plane), all creatures with the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures), all Spirit Folk or Telthors (see the Unapproachable East), and all spirit creatures created by spells. So that explains what Knowledge (spirits) entails.
        But anyway, my main question is if it sounds fair and sensible to allow the converted OA Shaman access to all non-PHB Druid spells since they don't otherwise get anymore than what's descibed in OA. So, yeah, could you maybe give your opinion on that? Thanks!
#4
jamsession
Jan 09, 2012 20:07:42     And it's Dragon Magazine issue #318 that you're thinking of by the way.
#5
Sword_of_Spirit
Apr 06, 2012 20:02:53 I also love the shaman. I'd consider it my favorite 3e class.

As far as adding additional spells, here is where my quest took me.

1. I like having a simple rule to follow, the same as you do. So I figured I'd try giving them access to every spell from the PHB that is shared by both clerics and druids.
2. When I did this and then looked at their spell list and compared it several ways to other lists...it wasn't right.
3. I carefully looked over and compared the spell list of shaman with cleric and druid until I was satisfied that I truly "got" what shaman was supposed to have.
4. Then I manually added a few spells from the PHB. I literally added only 5 spells.
- Resist energy (since they had the higher level protection from energy already)
- Comprehend languages (since they had tongues)
- Dimensional anchor (since they had the higher level dimensional lock)
- Banishment (since they had the lower level dismissal, and it seemed appropriate to the class)
- Storm of Vengeance (since I though they needed a 9th level damage dealing spell, and their 9th level spell list was unfortunately small)

As far as non-core books, I feel I would end up with unacceptable results if I attempted to follow a simple rule like you suggested, much as I'd love to. That's just my experience, but hopefully it gives you some thoughts.

With the skill list, it looks like a few skills too many to me. I also examined the skill lists for both cleric and druid and how they improved from 3.0 to 3.5. What I would suggest is that you take off knowledge (the planes) and knowledge (nature), and consider removing Spot and Listen also. You might want to add Sense Motive. Knowledge (the planes) is basically replaced with knowledge (spirits) in an OA setting, since the only other planes the setting deals with are the Ethereal Plane and the Spirit World, and many (even most or all depending on preference) outsiders are considered spirits. If you use the class in a more traditional setting, it's probably a better idea to ditch knowledge (spirits) entirely, and then add knowledge (the planes) and knowledge (nature) instead.

Another thing you may want to be aware of is that if you use the shaman from the book (I'm including 3.5 and the updates you described) he is going to seriously rely on his animal companion for protection, because there is a design flaw in the class. They gave him unarmed combat abilities, but made him too squishy to get into combat to use them, and took away some of the cleric spells that would help him buff up for combat. My friend and I have gone over this issue to no end. We eventually settled on a couple of house-ruled variants.

In case you're interested, here's how they go:

(Standard) Shaman:
- Animal Companion: Gained at 3rd level, treat as druid of half level.
- Turn Undead: This ability is gained at level 4, and the shaman turns undead as a cleric 3 levels lower would.
- Refuse Spirit's Call (Ex): A shaman gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of spirits.
-Spirit's Blessing (Su): At 2nd level a shaman gains his Wisdom bonus as a sacred bonus to AC (if he spontaneously casts cure spells) or as a profane bonus to AC (if he spontaneously casts inflict spells). The shaman loses this bonus if he wears medium or heavy armor, carries a shield, or carries a medium of heavy load.

Turn Undead was at the same level as paladin in 3.0, so I moved it for shaman in 3.5 also. Spirit's Blessing was at 2nd to prevent an easy level dip. Precedent for the ability is a 2nd level Swordsage ability, although I really liked my friends idea of a sacred bonus, so I went with that, making it a supernatural ability. Animal Companion went at 3rd level (a weird place, I know) simply because level 2 and level 4 were already packed. Refuse Spirit's Call is a little something we cooked up for mostly flavor purposes.

The variants below are exactly as described above, except where listed.

Savage Shaman
- Gain Animal Companion as druid at 1st level. Lose Spirit's Blessing.

Makes it similar to the one in the book. The reason I didn't put this as a default, is that the fluff in the book describes shaman as more like universal cleric/priest/(and flavor-wise an asian-themed "monk" is more likely a shaman than he is the monk class) in an asian setting, and having a dire bear out back of every shrine in a civilized culture is rather strange. This one is for the more savage character who would actually call himself a "shaman" rather than priest or monk.

Monastic Shaman
- Gain Monk Unarmored AC (including Wisdom bonus) as monk. Lose light armor proficiency, Handle Animal class skill, Spirit’s Blessing.

My friend preferred this to my standard shaman listed above. I think it's a little too narrow in theme (like the savage shaman), which is why I made my standard one be different.

Hope that helps in some way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jamsession Jan 08, 2012 16:20:24	So I am looking to create a necromancer/druid type character, and I found that the best representation of this was the Shaman class in Oriental Adventures 3.0 (pg23). However, there are some things that need to be fixed to bring it up to speed with 3.5. Most if not all of the classes featured in the book were converted to 3.5 (Samurai, Ninja, Wu jen, Shugenja, etc.). The closest thing I could find to what the Shaman was converted to was the Spirit Shaman (CompleteDivine15), but it is a drastically different class than the one described in OA. Some of the features are easy fixes. Obviously the 'animal companion' feature of the OA Shaman would convert to the 3.5 rules, and the Errata guide says that, in addition to more spells, the Shaman also recieves the unarmed damage progression of the Monk. However the class skills conversion seems...well kind of a screw-me-over (I mean, come on, what the hell is the difference between Knowledge(religion) and Knowledge (spirits) anyway? And additionally I would lose Scry as a class skill as it does not exist in 3.5). I believe the authors tried to correct this with the Spirit Shaman by being a little more generous with the overall class skills. My other concern is that since OA did not have a 3.5 version released, it was not mentioned in any of the expansion books (Complete Champion, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, etc.). This was something else that the authors seemed to try and fix by giving the Spirit Shaman access to the same spells as the Druid. It doesn't seem exactly fair that every other class gets access to expansion matieral but not the OA Shaman simply because the class wasn't updated in more or less the same form. So my proposal to make the OA Shaman compatible with 3.5 while retaining the same essence is the following: - Follow all established rules for 3.0 to 3.5 conversions as well as the relevant Errata. - OA Shaman acquires the same class skills as the Spirit Shaman. - In addition to the Shaman spells detailed in OA, the Shaman also gains access to any non-core book (i.e. everything except the Player's Handbook) spells normally available to the Druid. Is this sound? Multiclassing for the Druidic-Necromancer character I have in mind is out of the question. So I don't want to hear any Cleric/Druid suggestions. I also have no interest in the Spirit Shaman. If I wanted to be a Shamanistic Druid, I would simply roleplay a Shaman type character while being a full fledged Druid. Anyway, let me know. Any input on this would be great. Thanks!
#2 ashtagon Jan 09, 2012 13:55:37	There is an old issue of Dragon magazine (before it went digital, somewhere between issue 300-360 I think) in which the entire Oriental Adventures book was erratad into 3.5e.
#3 jamsession Jan 09, 2012 20:06:09	Yeah. I've read it, and it helps, but it still doesn't address the fact that I do not have any access to the expanded material. It doesn't seem fair since all the other classes that got converted in OA get expansion access (I'm looking at all you Shugenjas and Wu Jens out there). That's why I suggested the OA Shaman be able to, for purposes of expanded spell access, be able to cast any Druid spell that appears in the non-core books. Now that I've looked more into how all the 3.0 skills got changed, the 3.5 OA Shaman's class skill list should look like this: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (spirits), Knowledge (planes), Knowledge (nature), Profession, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft. Right? I found in the Complete Divine (p17) that a spirit is the following: all incorpreal undead, all fey, all elementals, all creatures in Astral form or with Astral bodies (but not ones present on the Astral Plane), all creatures with the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures), all Spirit Folk or Telthors (see the Unapproachable East), and all spirit creatures created by spells. So that explains what Knowledge (spirits) entails. But anyway, my main question is if it sounds fair and sensible to allow the converted OA Shaman access to all non-PHB Druid spells since they don't otherwise get anymore than what's descibed in OA. So, yeah, could you maybe give your opinion on that? Thanks!
#4 jamsession Jan 09, 2012 20:07:42	And it's Dragon Magazine issue #318 that you're thinking of by the way.
#5 Sword_of_Spirit Apr 06, 2012 20:02:53	I also love the shaman. I'd consider it my favorite 3e class. As far as adding additional spells, here is where my quest took me. 1. I like having a simple rule to follow, the same as you do. So I figured I'd try giving them access to every spell from the PHB that is shared by both clerics and druids. 2. When I did this and then looked at their spell list and compared it several ways to other lists...it wasn't right. 3. I carefully looked over and compared the spell list of shaman with cleric and druid until I was satisfied that I truly "got" what shaman was supposed to have. 4. Then I manually added a few spells from the PHB. I literally added only 5 spells. - Resist energy (since they had the higher level protection from energy already) - Comprehend languages (since they had tongues) - Dimensional anchor (since they had the higher level dimensional lock) - Banishment (since they had the lower level dismissal, and it seemed appropriate to the class) - Storm of Vengeance (since I though they needed a 9th level damage dealing spell, and their 9th level spell list was unfortunately small) As far as non-core books, I feel I would end up with unacceptable results if I attempted to follow a simple rule like you suggested, much as I'd love to. That's just my experience, but hopefully it gives you some thoughts. With the skill list, it looks like a few skills too many to me. I also examined the skill lists for both cleric and druid and how they improved from 3.0 to 3.5. What I would suggest is that you take off knowledge (the planes) and knowledge (nature), and consider removing Spot and Listen also. You might want to add Sense Motive. Knowledge (the planes) is basically replaced with knowledge (spirits) in an OA setting, since the only other planes the setting deals with are the Ethereal Plane and the Spirit World, and many (even most or all depending on preference) outsiders are considered spirits. If you use the class in a more traditional setting, it's probably a better idea to ditch knowledge (spirits) entirely, and then add knowledge (the planes) and knowledge (nature) instead. Another thing you may want to be aware of is that if you use the shaman from the book (I'm including 3.5 and the updates you described) he is going to seriously rely on his animal companion for protection, because there is a design flaw in the class. They gave him unarmed combat abilities, but made him too squishy to get into combat to use them, and took away some of the cleric spells that would help him buff up for combat. My friend and I have gone over this issue to no end. We eventually settled on a couple of house-ruled variants. In case you're interested, here's how they go: (Standard) Shaman: - Animal Companion: Gained at 3rd level, treat as druid of half level. - Turn Undead: This ability is gained at level 4, and the shaman turns undead as a cleric 3 levels lower would. - Refuse Spirit's Call (Ex): A shaman gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of spirits. -Spirit's Blessing (Su): At 2nd level a shaman gains his Wisdom bonus as a sacred bonus to AC (if he spontaneously casts cure spells) or as a profane bonus to AC (if he spontaneously casts inflict spells). The shaman loses this bonus if he wears medium or heavy armor, carries a shield, or carries a medium of heavy load. Turn Undead was at the same level as paladin in 3.0, so I moved it for shaman in 3.5 also. Spirit's Blessing was at 2nd to prevent an easy level dip. Precedent for the ability is a 2nd level Swordsage ability, although I really liked my friends idea of a sacred bonus, so I went with that, making it a supernatural ability. Animal Companion went at 3rd level (a weird place, I know) simply because level 2 and level 4 were already packed. Refuse Spirit's Call is a little something we cooked up for mostly flavor purposes. The variants below are exactly as described above, except where listed. Savage Shaman - Gain Animal Companion as druid at 1st level. Lose Spirit's Blessing. Makes it similar to the one in the book. The reason I didn't put this as a default, is that the fluff in the book describes shaman as more like universal cleric/priest/(and flavor-wise an asian-themed "monk" is more likely a shaman than he is the monk class) in an asian setting, and having a dire bear out back of every shrine in a civilized culture is rather strange. This one is for the more savage character who would actually call himself a "shaman" rather than priest or monk. Monastic Shaman - Gain Monk Unarmored AC (including Wisdom bonus) as monk. Lose light armor proficiency, Handle Animal class skill, Spirit’s Blessing. My friend preferred this to my standard shaman listed above. I think it's a little too narrow in theme (like the savage shaman), which is why I made my standard one be different. Hope that helps in some way.