Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mindolin Mar 11, 2009 13:26:58	Okay, it's typically seen that touching another samurai's katana is a grave insult, but what is the consensus of a samurai taking the sword of a defeated enemy? I was thinking of playing as a scorpion clan samurai who focused on a Spider Style of fighting, starting by using a katana and up to five wakizashi for a total of 6 attacks, and possibly upgrading to using the katana of samurai I defeat. I know that Bayushi Shoju used the bloodsword Ambition for the Scorpion Coup, but as he's the Lord of the Scorpions, the sword was his by right, but the precedent has still been set for a samurai possessing more than one katana. And obviously this is for a Rokugan campaign setting.
#2 harmesis Mar 14, 2009 1:22:55	Well, for many samurai in Rokugan, they used their grandfathers blade, so by choosing to use a defeated enemies katana instead of their own families weapon, they dishonor their family. When a more honorable blade was given to the Samurai, they would switch (For Example; if your Daimyo gifts you a Katana, the honor from that makes it so you could put down your families sword honorably.) That being said, Scorpions hold different idea's of honor than the Lions or the Cranes and I could definately see them using others Katana's as a means of implicating another clan in a criminal activity. Say your character is tasked with assassinating a minor official during winter court. If they had a nice looking Katana with the insignia of another clan, they could use that to do the killing and then conveniently lose it.
#3 mindolin Mar 14, 2009 10:38:40	Actually, the plan was to use ALL my swords. Once I get to where I attack 6 times, I can suddenly do 6 iaijutsu strikes, by starting with the swords of my defeated enemies, dropping them when I'm done to use quick draw to bring out another one, continuing until I've used all 6, and am left holding my ancestral blade and one other.
#4 doctorjello Mar 15, 2009 11:11:52	That is one hell of a use of an abused free action. Most dm's will allow you to quick draw a weapon twice. You do realize it is a standard action to pick up each sword there after. If not a standard action a move action. If you are a scorpion clan member then honor means nothing for you. "The scorpion clan serves the emperor by doing the things that most clans won't do."
#5 rhialto Mar 15, 2009 17:52:29	Drawing a weapon is normally a move action (or standard if the weapon is carried as a hidden weapon). With Quick Draw, it becomes a free action (or move action if carried as a hidden weapon). Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. Whether carried on display or hidden, it must still be carried in such a way as to be ready to be drawn. Otherwise, you aren't "drawing a weapon", but "retrieving a stored item". Retrieving a stored item is always a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity (although if it's at the bottom of a backpack, I'd be inclined to make it longer, possibly much longer). I would be inclined to rule that you could carry a maximum of two katana-size weapons in such a drawable position on your person (hung from a belt). Any more than that would involve some serious movement penalties as the sheaths bash against your legs (and locking down those sheaths so they don't move so much would mean they are no longer instantly drawable). It's certainly possible to carry an additional weapon on your back, but that's stowage space, not a drawable weapon. It would also be liable to replace any position normally occupied by a backpack, which may be important.
#6 mindolin Mar 16, 2009 8:26:49	Well, having two on my back, and one on each hip, I can carry 4, I just need to figure out where to get the other two. And I don't particularly care about the action to pick them up again, I intend to start with the enemy's katana, so I intend to just drop them on the ground after I use them. It's the katana that are my heirlooms that I use last, and they won't be dropped. Also, a Scorpion does still try upholding a little bit of honor, otherwise they are ineffective, since most people in rokugan would, as a general rule, attempt to avoid a person who is known to be without honor. They uphold honor, but are pragmatic about it. It's actually part of what draws me to the Scorpion. That and a little exchange that I intend to have with, say, a Lion samurai, asking him what he would sacrifice for the Empire, starting with his life, his family, his swordarm, and ending with "would you sacrifice your honor for the Empire? Well, Lion-sama, it would seem I am the more loyal son of the empire."
#7 doctorjello Mar 16, 2009 9:52:42	Well, having two on my back, and one on each hip, I can carry 4, I just need to figure out where to get the other two. Gloves of storing X2 Now to Rant When the Kami first established their place in the Empire, they held a tournament. Hantei was victorious and claimed the title of Emperor. His brother Bayushi however was easily defeated. The other siblings thought him weak for his loss. This was exactly what Bayushi wished. The Scorpion are a Clan of deceit and misdirection, blackmail and lies. The Scorpion will use any tactic to discredit his enemies, [b]draw them into dishonor, and use their shame to destroy them. However, they do it as part of their duty. Hantei I charged his brother Bayushi with protecting the Empire from the threats the other Clans cannot see: conspiracies, cults, plots against the throne. The Scorpion do their duty with ruthless efficiency. Their shadow war against the unseen forces of evil have afforded them the ability to spy on the other Clans, and use their knowledge as weapon against potential rivals. In rokugan, the term shame and dishonor means a non-lawful alignment. To be dishonored for a samurai is the prerequisite for the prestige class ronin which is on who carries his shame. Indeed attempt to avoid a person who is known to be without honor is true, but why do you think the scorpion clan is a close nit group of lies, deciet, misdirection, blackmail and once again lies. Their expert spies have covert identity which if you look in the oriental adventures campaign setting, there is a prestige class that shows that. It's the one of the Geisha with the war fan. The Scorpion clan is loyal to the empire, yes, but the cost of what they do for the empire is their honor. which is one thing that their leader had given up. He LET the emperor win, so that way he could handle things in his own way, and without being seen. His clan is the only clan that has the Rokugan Ninja. Do not confuse Loyalty with honor. Honor by definition is holding your word and doing things that are respectable to society. Loyalty is to be loyal to the empire, although the scorpion clan and all other clans will fight one another should the position of emperor came available. (legend of the 9 rings is one of my fav's, and i used to play a Iaijutsu master, who betrayed the crane clan because he was actually a scorpion clan member, and caused several of the new Iajutsu Master's to go over to the scorpion clan.) An example of a dishonored group is the Yakuza. They are loyal to the government, however, should a chance of them to gain control of the government became available, they will take it. And they are also the crime lords in japan handling smuggling, prostitution, murder, etc. By the way, Well, having two on my back, and one on each hip, I can carry 4, I just need to figure out where to get the other two. And I don't particularly care about the action to pick them up again, I intend to start with the enemy's katana, so I intend to just drop them on the ground after I use them. It's the katana that are my heirlooms that I use last, and they won't be dropped dropping anothers katana who fell in combat dishonor's the fallen. Just an FYI. In rokugan, the people who would target you is the Crane Clan and their mafia of Iajutsu Master's. Just a fore-warning, because what you are doing to them (the art behind the katana) is basically the same as using spray paint on the mona lisa, so instead of being attacked by painters, you getting attacked by samurai's. And by the way He was a true Scorpion, fully aware that his path would lead to personal dishonor and ruin, but persevered to do what he thought was his duty: stop the return of Fu Leng by killing the Emperor, a good friend who he had served loyally his whole life. By the way, the bloodsword ambition was not a Kill prize: It was given to the Scorpion Clan Champion, Bayushi Rikoji in the year it was forged. Rikoji did not trust the sword, however, and never touched it. After the deaths of the Crab Clan Champion, Lion Clan Champion and Crane Clan Champion, he became even more suspicious of the sword's origin and dispatched the Magistrate Soshi Takasho to find Yajinden. The sword Ambition was forged by Asahina Yajinden in 508 on the Anvil of Despair as one of the four Bloodswords. And that was the only bloodsword, that was used ONLY once. Blood sword info The Bloodswords are four katana forged by Asahina Yajinden in 508 using the Anvil of Despair for his master Iuchiban. Each weapon was of exceptional quality, and granted its wielder unnusual abilities as a powerful nemuranai. Each sword was also cursed, however, and its owner would eventually be obsessed by the trait for which each katana was named. The bloodswords were each gifted to a daimyo of a great clan with the intent that the weapon would destroy them, causing confusion in the Empire and aiding Iuchiban's attempt to dominate Rokugan.[1][2] Who recieved it: The four swords were gifted to the Champions of the Scorpion, Crab, Crane and Lion. The Crane Clan Champion confessed his love for a geisha less that half his age to the assembled court before throwing himself off a cliff into the sea. The Lion Clan Champion engaged in an ill-concieved assault upon the Dragon Clan over a perceived insult, and died infront of the gates of Shiro Mirumoto. The Crab Clan Champion killed his own children in his sleep before turning the blade upon himself. Only the Scorpion Clan Champion Bayushi Rikoji did not use his blade, but rather chose to start an investigation into the giver of these "gifts", leading to the fall of Iuchiban.[2] Who is the hero for that, the scorpion clan. and also concerning after his death just so you know: Ironically, Shoju did not join the realm of the Honored Ancestors upon his death. Though he attacked Otosan Uchi with noble intentions, his defiance of the Celestial Order caused his soul to be cast into Gaki-do, the Realm of the Hungry Dead... ...For many years he wandered through Gaki-do and Rokugan, looking for suitable souls, which he inspired to great deeds of bravery-- deeds which fed his hungry soul. Proud of the good he can do, Bayushi Shoju realizes his punishment could have been far worse; the Fortunes showed great mercy towards him. Some Scorpion know what happened to Shoju, but none admit it. To them he would always be a Shiryo, sent to the blessed fields of Yomi. Saying otherwise risked swift retaliation from the Scorpion. FYI Gaki-do = Rokugan Hell, And finally..... where you can go to get more info: http://l5r.wikia.com The Scorpion Creed "I will do anything to save the Empire, even when the others are blinded by their honor." - Bayushi Rikoji. Hope this taught you the difference between honor and loyalty.
#8 rhialto Mar 16, 2009 13:45:16	Well, having two on my back, and one on each hip, I can carry 4... A weapon on your back isn't really in a position to be drawn; you'd be "retrieving a item from inventory" (move action, provokes aoo), not "drawing a weapon" (move action (free action with Quick Draw), provokes aoo). The fact that by default without feats, both are move actions, may be what is causing the confusion. The most ready "drawable" weapons a humanoid could have would be one already held in each hand (ie. already drawn), plus two in belt scabbards. I'd be inclined to add an additional two belt slots for dagger-size weapons only. With appropriate customisation of clothing, an additional two dagger-size weapons could be hidden in upper-body clothing. Of course, even more weapons could be hidden in clothing, but they would not be in drawable positions.
#9 mindolin Mar 17, 2009 8:57:09	One: Don't presume I don't know the difference between honor and loyalty, because I am quite aware of the differences. Two: Is it or is it not true that most clans are wary of the Scorpions precisely BECAUSE they are not always honorable? They may be absolutely loyal to the Empire, but there job is to do the things most samurai wouldn't do, and they are scorned for it. Reading the Prophecies of Uikiku reveals that the Scorpion Clan Coup was NOT done simply to gain the empire, but to save it, are they not the heroes of that, since they were standing to save the empire? And were they not cursed by the Rokugani for killing the Emperor, even though they were proven right? Three: I know the story of the bloodswords, I was using it as an example of a Samurai using a weapon other than his own ancestral weapon. Four: Yes, dropping the katana dishonors the fallen, but since they're dead and I'm a Scorpion, does it really matter to me? And how exactly is the other clan going to find out, unless I use the technique right in their face? Still, I might see about getting one of the Scorpion Shugenjas to craft a few scabbards that allow the use of Dancing Blade on the katanas, so I draw it, do my iaijutsu attack, and let go for it to remain floating and attack my enemy for me.
#10 doctorjello Mar 17, 2009 9:58:16	One: Don't presume I don't know the difference between honor and loyalty, because I am quite aware of the differences. Reason why I am stating that is yes there are some who have fallen from the graces of society, they are you neutral-X and chaotic-X people. Two: Is it or is it not true that most clans are wary of the Scorpions precisely BECAUSE they are not always honorable? They may be absolutely loyal to the Empire, but there job is to do the things most samurai wouldn't do, and they are scorned for it. Reading the Prophecies of Uikiku reveals that the Scorpion Clan Coup was NOT done simply to gain the empire, but to save it, are they not the heroes of that, since they were standing to save the empire? And were they not cursed by the Rokugani for killing the Emperor, even though they were proven right? I am quite well aware that the coup was not done to gain the empire when Bayushi Rikoji killed the emperor, i guess i forgot to put that down, i thought i quoted that, but must of changed my mind. FYI, the Scorpion clan isn't cursed, they are condemned by their actions as an individual, not as an affiliate to an eternity in Gaki-Do which after reading up on it sounds like an undead Hades. and here is a quote that i have concerning that which i had in my last post concerning the fate of the scorpion clan: Some Scorpion know what happened to Shoju, but none admit it. To them he would always be a Shiryo, sent to the blessed fields of Yomi. Saying otherwise risked swift retaliation from the Scorpion. We all want happy endings. Three: I know the story of the bloodswords, I was using it as an example of a Samurai using a weapon other than his own ancestral weapon. Oh, i thought it was in reference to picking up another person's katana and using it. Not to a samurai using a weapon other then his ancestral weapon. In all actuality, it is NORMAL to not use an ancestral diasho, except during war, duels, etc, which it is normal to use your ancestral diasho, and also at times of war another katana was normally used. (Samurai used to carry 2x katana and a wakizashi on his right or left hip depending on which hand he is using). The ancestral one, always has a rope tied where the sheath and the sword meet so the samurai knows how to differentiate the two during combat, and should the samurai have to commit suicide he would use the ancestral wakizachi. Theoretically, you can have 2x katana on each hip, and keep 2 in your gloves of storing should you want to do this, although I would give you a -2 armor check penalty for each additional katana past the second that you carry. Four: Yes, dropping the katana dishonors the fallen, but since they're dead and I'm a Scorpion, does it really matter to me? And how exactly is the other clan going to find out, unless I use the technique right in their face? Still, I might see about getting one of the Scorpion Shugenjas to craft a few scabbards that allow the use of Dancing Blade on the katanas, so I draw it, do my iaijutsu attack, and let go for it to remain floating and attack my enemy for me. Mainly because of the fact that when you kill a samurai, normally, the family gets the sword, and places it on the shrine and they do not get the body back(the samurai's lord handles the funeral arrangements and the samurai is normally buried in their families grave site). Should they not get the sword back they will go through great lengths to get it back should it not be returned to the family (they would outsource to a member of the scorpion clan in rokugan). And until the family gets the sword back, the Samurai's lord will not allow the funeral arrangements to continue. (If found to be stolen, the family is allowed to do an honor killing, or if the samurai was significant, the lord will have his samurai dispatch the offenders). Not only that but to do so intently is a very evil thing to do in rokugan, however i like the Dancing blade Idea. That is alot better. In all actuality, there was one time that a person did use multiple swords on a foe, and that was for an honor killing when a person was avenging the deaths of his comrades, albeit he wasn't carrying the swords, by using 100 swords to kill one person, his lord (suicidal mission), which the chinese and the japanese yakuza adopted by instead of using 100 swords, but 100 slashes with one sword, before finally killing the person (hence the term you will experience 100 deaths). As far as finding out, Shugenja's, Spirit Shamen's (especially), Wu-Jen, Void Disciples (much harder to find), all would be willing to do so, especially since without the sword the entire family would be condemned to Gaki-do. Japan is largely big on culture and tradition. Those who don't care (like your character does) about tradition or honor usually end up as Spider Clan members. The spider clan is where people who have exiled themselves from society gathered together, due to efficiency, and effectiveness. One reason the scorpion clan and the spider clan don't get along together is because the scorpion clan is loyal to the emperor and the spider clan is loyal to the destruction of evil.
#11 mindolin Mar 17, 2009 14:43:09	Okay, I actually did not remember anything about returning the sword to the enemy's family. In that case, my character would likely go return the sword himself, if able to, and perhaps commision some haiku or some form of art from the clan of the deceased, bring it back to his own clan, and either have one of his clan's swordsmiths forge a katana inspired by the artwork on that samurai, or do the forging himself, commemorating the death of a worthy adversary with the weapons. Perhaps forge two, one to keep, one to give to the family to commemorate my foe's passing. About all those people who could find out, only the Shugenja is found in Rokugan, maybe Void Disciples, but that's a prestige class anyway, and magic is not allowed to provide testimony in court cases, as detailed on page 135 of the Legend of the Five Rings book "Rokugan Campaign Setting", so they can use the spells, but any blood feud called because of such testimony is invalid. Oh, and Bayushi Shoju killed the Emperor, not Rikoji. Also, the Spider Clan serves Daigotsu, don't they? I thought that they served the Shadowlands, since Daigotsu was the new lord of the Shadowlands, and so the Scorpion Clan and the Spider Clan don't get along due to the Scorpion Clan being loyal to the Empire and the Spider Clan being loyal to the destruction of the Empire.
#12 squidyak Mar 17, 2009 17:34:11	Have you cleared this use of Quick Draw with your DM? You don't get an unlimited use of free actions during a combat round, only what your DM deems reasonable. You can speak as a free action, that doesn't mean you can recite the entire Constitution in one round. Personally I would rule that you could draw one weapon per hand (I make an exception for light thrown weapons.)
#13 mindolin Mar 18, 2009 14:26:04	With Quick Draw, drawing the weapon is a free action, and that there MAY be limits on the number of free actions. Nowhere does it actually say there are set limits, so any DM who imposes such a restriction is houseruling, because, RAW, I could carry as many weapons as my strength allows, and quick draw them all if I wanted to. Considering that to do this, I have to be around the level where the Wizard goes for meteor swarm and Weird, it's a fairly even playing field, still tilted to his side.
#14 squidyak Mar 18, 2009 16:37:08	With Quick Draw, drawing the weapon is a free action, and that there MAY be limits on the number of free actions. Nowhere does it actually say there are set limits, so any DM who imposes such a restriction is houseruling, because, RAW, I could carry as many weapons as my strength allows, and quick draw them all if I wanted to. Considering that to do this, I have to be around the level where the Wizard goes for meteor swarm and Weird, it's a fairly even playing field, still tilted to his side. That's not really a house rule. The Core Rules specifically address the potential of free action abuse, and it is up to any particular DM whether or not your use is allowable in his game RAW.
#15 mindolin Mar 18, 2009 20:47:32	It addresses the abuse by saying that it's possible. Actually doing something about it would be setting a limit on it.
#16 1337DnDMTCn3rd Jan 17, 2011 20:43:06	or do what I do and exploit every loophole.
#17 1337DnDMTCn3rd Jan 22, 2011 20:37:43	After all finding & exploiting loopholes in etiquette and honor systems is what people like me do best.