-I think Katana discussions are still not allowed. I'm not sure...
I'm pretty sure they repealed that ban a while ago (though they may have reinstated it).
Regardless, I've found myself becoming a fan of the arming sword over the last few months (which means, as I'm the DM, that most of my NPC's use them now).
Even if I do play a game with katanas, however, I generally find that most of my players want to use things like kusuri-gasa, or naginitas.
My spelling of the above weapons is very likely to be wrong, just for the record.
I'm pretty sure they repealed that ban a while ago (though they may have reinstated it).
I think they repealed it with the stipulation that Katana posting stays at the absolute minimum.
So what are the katana's stats in 4E?
Katanas can and DO slice bullets!
-Well, yeah. Swords are made of metals that are much harder and solid than the metals bullets are made of. ;)
So what are the katana's stats in 4E?
Despite being folded umpteen thousand times, I'm guessing bastard sword stats still make the most sense.
EDIT: Yes, I did just say that I've been folded umpteen thousand times. It didn't help me slice through steel.
Despite being folded umpteen thousand times, I'm guessing bastard sword stats still make the most sense.
EDIT: Yes, I did just say that I've been folded umpteen thousand times. It didn't help me slice through steel.
And the argument is back on.
As a serious answer - in my 4e game, I do plan to use bastard sword stats for a katana if it happens to come up. Bastard swords are powerful weapons, can be wielded one- or two-handed, and require a bit of training (proficiency feat) to be used to their full potential - I think that fits the "feel" that most people have for katana. If a player wants to do some iajutsu stuff, I shall encourage them to take Improved Initiative. Your milage, of course, will likely vary.
Actually, iai would make for a neat daily power. Close burst 1 of basic attacks starting from the saya.
Now, why bastard sword? Scimitar seems like a better match, with maybe a +1 dam for using two handed. (1d8, high crit, versatile) works for me.
I'm not stepping into the middle of an old fight, am I? :angelhide
Now, why bastard sword? Scimitar seems like a better match, with maybe a +1 dam for using two handed. (1d8, high crit, versatile) works for me.
That would be broken, unless you made it a superior weapon. As for me, I think that bastard sword fits. The bastard sword requires special training to use it one handed, which can represent some of the fighting styles taught by the schools that emphasised on either using the katana one handed by itself, two handed, or with a wakizashi. But your idea is an excellent one for people who don't like using bastard sword stats.
Now, why bastard sword? Scimitar seems like a better match, with maybe a +1 dam for using two handed. (1d8, high crit, versatile) works for me.
I'm so tempted to start up a scimitar vs. katana debate. :debate:
Yeah baby!
Hey LK, you are a a watcher on the Other Worlds boards?
-I've always been a participant in the 'Other Worlds' sections that interest me (Oriental Adventures, Spelljammer, Planescape).
So Kara-Tur, Realmspace and the cosmology of Toril?
-And the general basics of Spelljamming, as well as all of the Great Wheel.
Wow! That video is so cheezy, I want a copy for christmas.
Trust me. Hollywood would have made that video even worse. :evillaugh
--hates Hollywood even more than Alan Moore hates Hollywood ... also hates Alan Moore, the person not the author.
-Joni
Now, why bastard sword? Scimitar seems like a better match, with maybe a +1 dam for using two handed. (1d8, high crit, versatile) works for me.
I can kinda see this but considering I am sure they gave the scimitar the high crit trait because of the how sharply it is curved and while yes the Katana is also curved just nowhere near as curved as a scimitar. Now I do not own a scimitar(though I have wielded one to get a feel of the style of sword) but I do own both a bastard sword and a katana and the slight curve of the katana is the only thing that makes it shorter then the bastard sword.
I personally though of the Bastard Sword as a great representation of the Katana and mind you I am still studying Japanese Culture and it is my understanding that Katana was supposed to mean long blade though I could most likely be wrong but with that in mind I kinda expected the longsword to be used instead.
The katana blade vary in length, but most common are the same height as the european longsword blade. I use "height" because one must be mindful of the katana blade's curvature. That would allow a low-ranking samurai to wear their katana (tucked in the obi) in an almost upright (vertical) position. High-ranking experienced samurai would sometimes use a much longer blade as they can wear their katana in an almost horizontal position, giving them much wide berth or space to walk in public.
Be mindful that it is against the law (punishable by death) to touch someone's katana without permission. Low-ranking samurai do not want their katana to touch a high-ranking one's.
Though there are a few samurai that have long katana, despite their ranking. Miyamoto Mushashi's opponent, Sasaki Kojiro, carried and wielded a very long katana whose nickname is translated "clothes-drying pole." Because of this, Musashi fashioned a long oar into a weapon he used to defeat and kill Kojiro.
I can kinda see this but considering I am sure they gave the scimitar the high crit trait because of the how sharply it is curved and while yes the Katana is also curved just nowhere near as curved as a scimitar. Now I do not own a scimitar(though I have wielded one to get a feel of the style of sword) but I do own both a bastard sword and a katana and the slight curve of the katana is the only thing that makes it shorter then the bastard sword.
As with all weapon development, they experimented with the katana's curvature until they settle with the right form.
If you really want the Katana to be special, make it a bastard sword with Brutal 1 (personally, I find anything above that makes it fairly insane)
You all have to realize there are people who will nitpick about comparing katana to bastard sword.
While I agree they function similarly, which is why anyone taking a bastard sword proficiency can also be proficient with a katana, the forms are completely different. I'm not just talking about the blade shape, but the weight gap between them are significant.
Of course, I'm not accusing you of making any such argument, as you clearly stated that we are in agreement - I'm just expanding on previous posts.
Of course, if anyone does think the differences are great enough to warrent developing a new weapon stat block, by all means they should do so and drop a link in here to the thread in the House Rules or Equipment forums where they post it - the regulars there are probably better equipped to judge its quality as a gaming tool than we are.
The katana blade vary in length, but most common are the same height as the european longsword blade. I use "height" because one must be mindful of the katana blade's curvature. That would allow a low-ranking samurai to wear their katana (tucked in the obi) in an almost upright (vertical) position. High-ranking experienced samurai would sometimes use a much longer blade as they can wear their katana in an almost horizontal position, giving them much wide berth or space to walk in public.
Wrong. You're watching too much Kurosawa, my friend. Ogasawa-ryu, the style of etiquette that all the Japanese nobles had adopted (including the samurai) had legal reasons.
ALL samurai wore their katana and wakizashi edge-up. This nonsense about carrying nodachi (the equivalent used by Sasaki), would not allow him to wear it on his back as he walked through the streets BECAUSE that would make him a threat to the public. Now, while Sasaki did indeed, or so they say, use a longer sword, he would either have a page carry it for him, he would wear it in his belt (much like Toyama-ryu and Jigen-ryu schools do), or, if he was really desperate, lazy, and uncouth, carry it in his right hand.
The reason for wearing swords edge-up was because tachi, the predecessor to the katana, a saber-like sword, was worn edge down in battle. We're talking Mongolian Invasion era, before swords became uniform and war was informalized.
There were local lords who enforced laws in Japan, being that not all samurai were noble chivalric beings. During Sasaki's time, or rather Miyamoto's (the survivor) the Tokugawa Shoguns limited the length of swords for legal reasons.
Be mindful that it is against the law (punishable by death) to touch someone's katana without permission. Low-ranking samurai do not want their katana to touch a high-ranking one's.
A sword is a tool, not a divine mandate. The Hagakure was written by a samurai who had never seen war, had no list of note of duels, and resided in a monastary most of his life. It's all fluff.
Liken it to this: I brush past your shoulder accidentally, I stop, turn around, and apologize.
Or: I brush past your shoulder meaning to start a fight. We fight. We both get in trouble.
The Tokugawa Shogunate may have weakened the effectiveness of lords and samurai, but they didn't want clans killing each other off; that would invite government instability.
Though there are a few samurai that have long katana, despite their ranking. Miyamoto Mushashi's opponent, Sasaki Kojiro, carried and wielded a very long katana whose nickname is translated "clothes-drying pole." Because of this, Musashi fashioned a long oar into a weapon he used to defeat and kill Kojiro.
Monohoshizao: "Clothes Drying Pole"
Musashi may have also used other tactics to beat Sasaki, like arriving late, causing Kojiro to misjudge his opponent and have second thoughts.
As with all weapon development, they experimented with the katana's curvature until they settle with the right form.
The Tokugawa Shoguns mandated sword length and form; prior eras saw swords unrestricted. The Tokugawa enacted sword reverence.
----
As for the topic:
I think the "katana" could be represented by many sword stats in the book. I've also listed a few other oriental weaponry ideas.
"Zanbatou": Fullblade, Glaive, Great Spear
Naginata: Glaive, Great Spear, Double-bladed Sword (for Onimusha fans)
Yari: Great Spear, Long Spear, Short Spear
Nage-Yari: Javelin, Short Spear
Jumonji-Yari: Glaive, Long Spear, Short Spear, Great Spear, Trident
Katakama-Yari: Glaive, Long Spear, Short Spear, Great Spear, Trident
O-Dachi: Fullblade
Nodachi/O-Katana: Greatsword, Falchion, Bastard Sword
Katana: Bastard Sword, Falchion, Long Sword, Scimitar, Broad Sword
Chisa-Katana: Long Sword, Rapier, Scimitar, Broad Sword
Wakizashi: Short Sword, Long Sword (Ranger TWF, FTW?)
Tanto: Dagger, Short Sword
Manrikigusari: Spiked Chain
Anyway, I hope we can move away from stats determined by the naming of weapons, and more towards finding the right stats for how you want to portray your character's weapon in game.
Anyway, all of this was just an illustration to help you all see that in 4E, we don't need books upon books of weapons with similar stats. I like that WotC is giving weapons different properties without defining exact names like in 3E.
Wrong. You're watching too much Kurosawa, my friend. Ogasawa-ryu, the style of etiquette that all the Japanese nobles had adopted (including the samurai) had legal reasons.
ALL samurai wore their katana and wakizashi edge-up.
I didn't say anything about edge. All I'm saying is how they tuck their katana.
All samurai will tuck their samurai edge up -- unless they're in armor, in which case they employ the original tachi-style or edge down. Low-class samurai will often try to keep their katana as vertical to their body so they won't bump into higher-class or experienced samurai.
I didn't say anything about edge. All I'm saying is how they tuck their katana.
All samurai will tuck their samurai edge up -- unless they're in armor, in which case they employ the original tachi-style or edge down. Low-class samurai will often try to keep their katana as vertical to their body so they won't bump into higher-class or experienced samurai.
It's not just a thing of avoiding a scuffle, it's of respect. The way a katana slips through the kaku-obi and the himo of the hakama has it relatively out of the way. Only when the hakama, obi, and katana are worn in such a careless manner does the katana jut diagonally from the body to provide a hazard.
Thus, only in enclosed spaces would a samurai of any rank need to adjust his katana (also bear in mind the precautions that must be taken when so much as adjusting the scabbard).
Just being nit-picky.
I'm tired of all this "bastard sword" talk that's going around. Actually, I'm just tired. Zzzzz...
*puts shaving cream in his open hand and then tickles his ear*
It's not just a thing of avoiding a scuffle, it's of respect.
Yeah, you respect the swaggering, more experienced samurai by giving him lots of space.
Yeah, you respect the swaggering, more experienced samurai by giving him lots of space.
Of course we all love the Toshiro Mifune idea of swaggering ronin using logic. But by the very fact of logic, an experienced swordsman wouldn't swagger.
Creating an isolated movement gives an opponent reference points from which to judge how far away you are, thus negating the head-on POV of the 3foot of razor sharp steel.
A good point for Edo period Samurai to pick up on:
Avoid those Samurai with retinues.
There were bigger Japanese blades of course, such as the nagamaki and nodachi, but these were not katana.
I've been doing some research today, and I discovered the bastard sword was traditionally 3.75 - 5.5 feet in length, while the katana was traditionally 2 - 2.5 feet in length. Given that there is no overlap at all in blade lengths, why was the bastard sword chosen as the "equivalent" weapon? Apart from "we wanted the katana to be uber" or "we didn't do our homework"?
Because if they made it just a longsword instead, people wouldn't think it was as cool. I don't know, I got nothing.
The katana should have been grouped with the longsword. The nagamaki (ftw!) should have been a bastard sword equivalent. AND... it looks way better ;P
The Katana fits the idealized role of the bastard sword because the majority of schools and styles wield their swords two-handed, which could also be represented by a Great Sword. Wielding a Long Sword 2-handed doesn't really put out the same damage potential the Bastard Sword does. Now, with 4th Edition, it is feasible to wield a long sword two-handed, but unless you have a shield in the other (or your DM allows you to use a short sword as a shield, as per the 4th Edition Conversion Guide for Complete Warrior) if you can take Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you can deal damage on a completely different die.
Now, if you wanted to stat a Nagamaki, you could either call it a Glaive, Great Sword, or Falchion. Why? Well, a nagamaki is essentially a shorter naginata, or a long-hilted nodachi, or a...falchion shaped sword.
Honestly though, for some magic weapons, I like to put a martial arts reference to it. Such as Motobu Udundi, a style that wields swords (katana, jian, dao, all swords) one-handed, if I want to represent the heaviness of wielding a katana on a Jian-style handle, I use Broadsword stats.
Lastly, for all historical pieces of information that we glimmer from research, we're playing a game, the game doesn't need to be historically accurate or keep to precise measurements (which are based more on the stature of the people wielding them). Personally, I'd say any 2-handed sword is either a bastard sword or a great sword. If it could also feasibly be wielded in 1-handed, it's a bastard sword. If a majority of it's use was 1-handed, it's a long sword (or a broad sword).