I ran a 1st-2nd edition campaign when I was younger set in the Fourth Age just after the War of the Ring. I used a great deal of MERP stuff straight-up (adventures, NPCs, settings, etc) and just converted stuff for AD&D.
Anyone else done the like? O maybe played MERP itself or DecipherMERPG?
Tolkien´s universe hasn´t D&D elements and creatures like centaurs, githyankis, cromatic dragons, mindslayer, beholder, minotaurs, fay...
Lord of Rings is a world with a lot of nostalgia flavor.
I take it you were trying to say that the way Tolkien ended the Lord of the rings left a Fourth Age Middle-Earth that was a little harder to adventure in RPG wise becuase the story was in a sense already over.
I take it you were trying to say that the way Tolkien ended the Lord of the rings left a Fourth Age Middle-Earth that was a little harder to adventure in RPG wise becuase the story was in a sense already over.
Meh. That's like saying the story of real-life Earth have ended when the War to End All Wars (or WW I) is over.
Suddenly we got WW II.
It's a creative stumbling block that people view that you can't top the epic story that have already played out. That's why settings like FR with no epic saga for everyone to remember is a much better playground for fantasy games because there isn't a good epic story to top it.
Nevertheless, the ME didn't end after the War of the Ring. The event ushered them into a new Age, and some went on living through it. Does it matter that we make adventures as grand as the War of the Ring? That's a question you have to ask yourself.
where god where did you find it? or did you already have it from when it was still in print?
Nevertheless, the ME didn't end after the War of the Ring. The event ushered them into a new Age, and some went on living through it. Does it matter that we make adventures as grand as the War of the Ring? That's a question you have to ask yourself.
What makes playing in Middle Earth challenging is that people are often going to have pretty high expectations. In my experience players are most concerned that you maintain a "Tolkienesque" atmosphere.
One big pit fall is introducing lots of different monsters and creatures that have no basis in Tolkien. Sticking to Orcs, Trolls, Spiders, Wargs and various animals is a good start.
Playing in the Fourth Age probably gives you more freedom, but Decipher's LotR game recommends playing some time during the 80 year period between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. That should give everyone quite enough room for quite a long campaign with all the classic elements still intact in the world.
Havard
DM of the Rings
What makes playing in Middle Earth challenging is that people are often going to have pretty high expectations. In my experience players are most concerned that you maintain a "Tolkienesque" atmosphere.
But what is "Tolkienesque"?
Does it have to be epic? Does it have to reflect Tokien's perspective, is if seen through the eyes of a trauma writer?
But what is "Tolkienesque"?
Does it have to be epic? Does it have to reflect Tokien's perspective, is if seen through the eyes of a trauma writer?
That is ofcourse entirely subjective and depends on the thoughts of the people involved in the group.
Personally, I am more concerned about maintaining the Tolkienesque atmosphere of the setting rather than the story.
For instance, introducing a wide range of D&D specific monsters or magic items that have no basis in Tolkien's works would be a big no-no. If using the D&D rules (I would prefer something else), certain spells would have to be rewritten or banned.
Not all groups would have the same concerns as me ofcourse. It is probably a good idea for a DM to discuss the expectations of the players with his group before running a game in Middle Earth.
Havard
One big pit fall is introducing lots of different monsters and creatures that have no basis in Tolkien. Sticking to Orcs, Trolls, Spiders, Wargs and various animals is a good start.
Hmm. Lets see:
- All the Different Types of Orcs
- All the Different Types of Trolls
- All the Different Types of Goblinoids
That little lot should keep you going for a while.
no offense Carlos but some of what you said made little sense syntax wise.
Don´t worry. I am not offended and I admit my mistakes. I want to improve my English level.
Well, I mean it isn´t easy making a good sequel.
Lord of the rings isn´t 4th ed. D&D at all. Tolkien´s world has a special flavor. There is a piece of sadness, tragedy and nostalgia ("the past was better"). There is a strong feeling of loss (golden age or inocence?).
A lot of D&D creatures aren´t suitable for Middle-Earth. If if I see minotaurs, dryads, griffins and centaures then it isn´t Middle-Earth, but Cronicles of Narnia rpg. Do you understand me?
I have just read in wikipedia Decipher Inc has lost the lincence of Lord of the Rings rpg and Star Treck rpg. If I was WotC I wold try get those lincences. A d20 Lord of Rings rpg could be published when the future film of Hobbit is broadcast, and it´s comming soon a new movie of Star Treck. (d20 Star Treck races compedium....cool!!)
Don´t worry. I am not offended and I admit my mistakes. I want to improve my English level.
Well, your English is a lot better than my Spanish.
Well, I mean it isn´t easy making a good sequel.
I suppose you could always go the other way and run a campaign where Sauron has just helped forge all of the (cursed) rings and the human kings have just started to be turned into the Ringwraths, by their rings.
Lord of the rings isn´t 4th ed. D&D at all. Tolkien´s world has a special flavor. There is a piece of sadness, tragedy and nostalgia ("the past was better"). There is a strong feeling of loss (golden age or inocence?).
A lot of D&D creatures aren´t suitable for Middle-Earth. If if I see minotaurs, dryads, griffins and centaures then it isn´t Middle-Earth, but Cronicles of Narnia rpg. Do you understand me?
Hmm. There were no Oliphaunts in The Hobbit. Who knows what other wonderful creatures Tolkein would have invented if he had written more a lot more stories.
I have just read in wikipedia Decipher Inc has lost the lincence of Lord of the Rings rpg and Star Treck rpg. If I was WotC I wold try get those lincences. A d20 Lord of Rings rpg could be published when the future film of Hobbit is broadcast, and it´s comming soon a new movie of Star Treck. (d20 Star Treck races compedium....cool!!)
IMHO the two biggest mistakes that WotC have made since they took over D&D are:
- Failing to carry out a major world wide campaign for D&D during the time that the LotR movies were coming out and
- Not paying whatever they needed to pay to secure the licence to sell a d20 System version of LotR.
WotC could have pulled in tons of D&D newbies if they had done this.
* A uchrony or alternative history is a option, but a...whole reboot of Tolkien´s work? Would Tolkien´s fans allow/forgive it?
Middle-Earth can not be a D&D setting. It would have to be a own d20 rpg, with own corebook. d20 Star Wars rpg isn´t d20 Future. Is it? Tolkien´s heroes aren´t spellcasters...(Gandalft is the closest to a wizard, but he is a angel-like creature, nor a true spellcaster. Tolkien was Catholic, and he didn´t like the esoterism/ocultism). Tolkien´s heroes haven´t superpowers, but they fight with great sense of sacrifice.
LotR has a particular style. It isn´t Dragonlance, Forgoten Realms, Conan, Final Fantasy, Earthsea, Eragon, Narnia or Game of Thrones. Middle-Earth is a world with low level of supernatural forces (magic). There aren´t fire swords or healer potions.
Middle-Earth can not be a D&D setting.
IOW, ME cannot be D&D but it CAN be d20.
Which all goes back to my famous mantra: Tweak the Rules to Fit the Setting.
D&D is all about your favorite stories, mythologies, and folklore thrown into one big box.
IOW, ME cannot be D&D but it CAN be d20
;) 
We agree PCs can no use fireballs wands nor healer potions.. don´t we?
Lord of Rings rpg can not have the same style of D&D. OK?
We agree PCs can no use fireballs wands nor healer potions.. don´t we?
Lord of Rings rpg can not have the same style of D&D. OK?
No, but I'm a fan of the D&D game mechanics, mainly d20+modifier vs. AC/DC.
Tolkien´s heirs don´t allow a reboot/remake/reset of Middle-Earth with changes of background (like new races). And do you think Tolkien´s fans would forgive a violation of "ortodoxy" of background?
I think people would have a great deal more problems adapting 4th edition with its super-hero feel should they decide they want to run in ME today. And that, actually, was one of my problems with 4th edition. Once the game becomes something you have to radically change to fit a fantasy standard, then the game has changed way too much for me.
For all of your Middle Earth D&D amusement needs...
DM of the Rings
That is the funniest thing I have read in a looong time.
There is no problem with low-magic setting of Arda. You can easily describe powers as a well done ranged/melee attacks, healing surges as a recoveries after severe hits, magic as using specialized/trained abilities/knowledge. In PHB powers, you have damage schemes adequate to levels. So get them, rename and change description!
As for monsters, simply use MM monsters to construct monsters of your need. Tolkien's works are imanent inspiration for DnD also, and rules as given in Core Rules are tweakable.
DnD gives you tweakable rules, mechanics and templates. We already have done a bunch of tweaks for 3.x ed. rules at http://arda.d20.cz/ but unfortunately in Czech and Slovak language only (de-crippled elves of all sub-races needed, several human sub-races, how to derive monsters from those in Core Rules, etc.).
IMHO the two biggest mistakes that WotC have made since they took over D&D are:
- Failing to carry out a major world wide campaign for D&D during the time that the LotR movies were coming out and
- Not paying whatever they needed to pay to secure the licence to sell a d20 System version of LotR.
WotC could have pulled in tons of D&D newbies if they had done this.
To your first bullet point, Dungeons & Dragons doesn't really need a vehicle like the LOTR films. The Third Edition sells well on its own, even moreso when they had third-party support, thanks to their two licenses, OGL and d20STL.
To your second bullet point, D&D and Tolkien already have a history, when early D&D products were using terms like "Hobbits" and were given a legalese Cease-and-Desist Letter from the Tolkien family. Better to remain a safe distance apart. They can offer as many $$$, but Tolkien Enterprises can still say no and go with someone else. And they did.
The connection or link between D&D and Middle-Earth is merely a fan's fantasy. Not even the late Great Gygax ... iconic co-found of D&D ... cared for Tolkien.
To your first bullet point, Dungeons & Dragons doesn't really need a vehicle like the LOTR films. The Third Edition sells well on its own, even moreso when they had third-party support, thanks to their two licenses, OGL and d20STL.
Sure, but who would say no to more money?
To your second bullet point, D&D and Tolkien already have a history, when early D&D products were using terms like "Hobbits" and were given a legalese Cease-and-Desist Letter from the Tolkien family. Better to remain a safe distance apart. They can offer as many $$$, but Tolkien Enterprises can still say no and go with someone else. And they did.
There's no reason why the problems of the first round would have to repeat themselves as long as WotC had a lisence.
The connection or link between D&D and Middle-Earth is merely a fan's fantasy. Not even the late Great Gygax ... iconic co-found of D&D ... cared for Tolkien.
The last sentence strikes me as a little odd. While Gary did say things to that effect, he also knew that most D&D fans love Tolkien. This is the reason why Gary included the Tolkienesque races and monsters in the first place.
Havard
Sure, but who would say no to more money?
Obviously Christopher Tolkien. As one earlier poster have stated, Tolkien and the trustees of the Tolkien Estate are very overzealous of his father's work.
The last sentence strikes me as a little odd. While Gary did say things to that effect, he also knew that most D&D fans love Tolkien. This is the reason why Gary included the Tolkienesque races and monsters in the first place.
Not exactly "Tolkienesque" but all the races are products of earlier mythologies that Tolkien himself borrowed from.
Granted, Gygax and Arneson have the foresight NOT to model the elves after Santa's. But loosely based them from the Norse mythologies.
Obviously Christopher Tolkien. As one earlier poster have stated, Tolkien and the trustees of the Tolkien Estate are very overzealous of his father's work.
I'm sure its mostly a matter of how much you are willing to pay/what you would accept put into the contract.
Not exactly "Tolkienesque" but all the races are products of earlier mythologies that Tolkien himself borrowed from.
Sure they have been modified as to not be exact copies, but I'm not buying for one second that that wasn't where D&D got them from. The fact that one of them was called Hobbits in OD&D speaks for itself.
Granted, Gygax and Arneson have the foresight NOT to model the elves after Santa's. But loosely based them from the Norse mythologies.
I have never seen any Norse myth that was very specific about what elves looked like. Tolkien used both Norse and Celtic myths and it is possible Celtic myths were more specific.
Havard
I'm sure its mostly a matter of how much you are willing to pay/what you would accept put into the contract.
You assume he can be bought. Hehehe.
Sure they have been modified as to not be exact copies, but I'm not buying for one second that that wasn't where D&D got them from. The fact that one of them was called Hobbits in OD&D speaks for itself.
And I have already stated, they got into legal trouble with Tolkien Estate for the use of "hobbit" in their game. Since then, have you seen "hobbit" being used within the -in-game section of the D&D book?
I have never seen any Norse myth that was very specific about what elves looked like. Tolkien used both Norse and Celtic myths and it is possible Celtic myths were more specific.
In any case, Gygax/Arneson used the same material as Tolkien, which are in the Public Domain (i.e., no one has claim copyright/trademark to mythologies).
You assume WotC can use Tolkien's copyrighted and trademarked material, if money is involved. Hehehe. That's like asking someone is willing to sell their children.
You assume he can be bought. Hehehe
This is business, nothing else
And I have already stated, they got into legal trouble with Tolkien Estate for the use of "hobbit" in their game. Since then, have you seen "hobbit" being used within the -in-game section of the D&D book?
I'm merely saying that's where it came from. They got into trouble for using it without asking the Trade Mark holders first.
In any case, Gygax/Arneson used the same material as Tolkien, which are in the Public Domain (i.e., no one has claim copyright/trademark to mythologies).
Technically yes. But there is no denying the races as they appear are strongly influenced by Tolkien, Lord of the Rings in particular. Frodo, Legolas and Gimli have become the stereotypes of their representative races. Yet, in Middle Earth they were very different from others of their races.
You assume WotC can use Tolkien's copyrighted and trademarked material, if money is involved. Hehehe. That's like asking someone is willing to sell their children.
I'm talking about buying a lisence. I'm not saying they should make D&D more like LoTR, but it would have made sense to make a Middle Earth setting for D&D. Ofcourse, it is possible it would have reduced the sales of Forgotten Realms products, which I believe also is an issue here (or at least was during the pre-4E policy towards settings).
Havard
This is business, nothing else
Tell THAT to Christopher Tolkien. Seriously. Tell him.
Technically yes. But there is no denying the races as they appear are strongly influenced by Tolkien, Lord of the Rings in particular. Frodo, Legolas and Gimli have become the stereotypes of their representative races. Yet, in Middle Earth they were very different from others of their races.
Tolkien influenced a flood of modern fantasy literature, big deal.
That's about as close as they'll get to Tolkien: the concept of modern fantasy.
I'm talking about buying a lisence. I'm not saying they should make D&D more like LoTR, but it would have made sense to make a Middle Earth setting for D&D. Ofcourse, it is possible it would have reduced the sales of Forgotten Realms products, which I believe also is an issue here (or at least was during the pre-4E policy towards settings).
If you can persuade an overzealous Christopher Tolkien into granting such a license, by all means do it.
You have a much better chance of getting JK Rowling to make a Harry Potter RPG ... or getting pigs to fly ... before Chris bows down to "the RPG business."
Or Saul, who runs Tolkien Enterprise and is the holder of Hobbit and LOTR (not the rest of Tokien's works) film right.
I have glanced at many of the comments, and my position is if you are going to use 4e mechanics with the MERPS setting don't try and replicate Tolkien's (Chris or Dad's) view, but base it on the reimagined version presented by I.C.E. which already includes D&D elements (i.e. overt magic use and magic using classes such as the mage and animist) favorable to the conversion.
My game is set exclusively in the south, which of course is an advantage because most of the materials regarding the Harad and the Utter South and Far East were developed by I.C.E. and not fleshed out by Tolkien and you can run a campaign that does not interferr with the main story arc. I'm also just tired of gaming/running fantasy Europe in all its versions, and want a Mediterranean/African/Middle Eastern feel. Thus, in my game Umbar is the farthest north I would possibly consider going.
Personally, instead of trying to force the new races and classes into the setting, as Wizards has done with FR and probably will do with Eberron, just reimagine them as well. I hate house rules (defined as rules that alter mechanics) with a passion, but have no probolem and encourage changing fluff, i.e. how elves, or dragonborn look, particularly where there is no mechanical benefit tied to a physical feature. So my aim is not to change races/classes and the Tolkien worldview as much as it is to find the closest match between the two with the idea of giving the players all races and class options in the PHB I & II and probably FR.
In this regard, I have decided on some things and am up in the air on others;
1. Dwarfs and Umli use dwarf mechanics with Umli being taller less hairy versions for those who don't like the dwarven look.
2. Bugbears, hobgoblins and goblins will be my Uruk-Hai, Half-Orc (Peryrch) and Common Orcs.
3. Goliaths, Orcs, and Half-Orcs, will be my Olog-hai, Half Trolls and Variag.
4. Halfings are Hobbits.
5. Deva will be lesser Istari or the descendants of Istari. The Istari proper, to me, are just Deva that reached Epic levels.
6. Tolkien Elves (somewhat undecided). I now that Eladrin will at least be Noldor or Sindar. Elves will be Silvan Elves. I am undecided as to using Drow mehanics for the Noldor or Sindar, or, if I set the game in the 4th Age, to use them as a a group of elves corupted by Melkor/Morgoth or Sauron (which definately would explain why they are black given Tolkien's ethnocentricities).
7. Half Elves will use Half Elf mechanics with the option of being Half Eladrin or Half Drow using Dual heritage to determine the available feats.
9. Gnomes will only be used if a player desires to play such a character and will probably be a fairy or fey influenced Halfing race.
10. Everthing else is straight Human or a Human with a Maiar infulences or meddling. For all intents and purposes, the remaining races look like humans, with only an inkling of difference when they utilizes racial powers and 4e descriptions and/or super hero looks, are out the window. This includes Tieflings (Morgath touched), Genasi (touched by Maiar like Manwe), Shifters (children of lycanthorpes and human who look human until bloodied then look like shifters), Dragonborn (Dragon touched but a powerful dragon/Morgoth), etc.
The rest of the races, MM or Dragon mag, are pretty much not a player option, though I'll consider any player concept that works and fits my campaign worldview. I run games with races and factions operating in greys, with good/evil black/white not being race or culture based if I can avoid it. For that reason my game will definately be set in an age when Sauron and Morgoth are not active or physically present but work subtlely.
I have fleshed out other issues, alignment, worship, etc. but I have already turned the post into a book. Sorry.
My latest thought is to do a 5th age of ME campaign. That would give me enought time to change things from the 3rd age yet still keeping the rich ancient history of the first 3 ages.
Basically during the 4th age ME would transform into more of a standard D&D world. The elves that remain would be ones (or decendants of the ones) that decided not to return across the sea. By remaining in ME they become mortal (but still living passed 1,000 years like normal D&D elves do). The orcs would be decendants of the uruks of the 3rd age. Goblins and hobgoblins would be decendants of the common orcs. Ogres and centaurs and other such creatures would be races that immigrated to the NW part of ME during the 4th age (many such races feel free to immigrate now that Sauron is gone).
During the 4th age the combined Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor grow in power considerably. Rohan is merged with them by marriage a few hundred years in the age. The Western Empire (as Gondor/Arnor/Rohan is now called) conquer many lands during the first millineum of the age. Even the elves of Greatwood the Great are forced to recognize the authority of the empire (after a brief but bloody war).
About half-way through the age imperial forces (led by the Emporer himself)are on a campaign to expand the empire further east (well passed the Sea of Rhun). In a battle of epic proportions the imperial army is destroyed and the (childless) emporer is killed. This sparks the rapid fragmentation of the empire. The elves revolt and drive imperial forces out of the Greenwood. Many local govenors and generals seize power as the central authority of the emporer is removed. The men of the south (Harad and Umbar) revolt and capture much of Gondor. The west falls into a dark age for more than a millineum as various (and newly crowned) kings fight among themselves and the revived orc invaders. The 4th age officially ends when an army of southrons sacks and burns Minas Tirith.
By the dawn of the 5th age the constant warfare has settled down (but not stopped altogether). Dozens of kingdoms now exist where once stood an empire. Rohan is the largest of most powerful kingdom in the west (early in the 5th age Rohan defeats the southron army that destroyed Minas Tirith). Gondor is mostly in ruins. Magic now exists at a near normal D&D level (having been imported from the far east). The Shire is now a Hobbit kingdom that is forced to have a standing army.
At this time a new dark threat emerges. The Witch-King is on the rise. His "destruction" at the end of the 3rd age released him from the influence of the One ring and his spirit survives its destruction. His spirit roamed formless for thousands of years. He finally possessed the body of a new born Easterling prince and when that prince reached adulthood the Witch-King's spirit overwhelmed the princes' spirit and destroys it. That was 20 years ago. Since then the Witck-King has built a powerful (and dark) eastern empire and begins looking to the west . . .
Humans – No change.
Eladrin – Noldor Elves, who alone of the elven strains returned to Middle–earth after the coming of Men and performed great deeds, for both good and evil. These elves wrought the Great Jewels – the Silmarils – and also made the Rings of Power. The greatest wars that ever were known to Men were fought over these works. Though most of the Eladrin have departed to the Undying Lands, or Feywild as it is sometimes called, some still remain in Middle-earth.
Elves – Sylvan Elves or Wood Elves, the Elves in Middle-earth who have never visited the Undying Lands.
Drow – Their appearance in the world is tied to the fate of the Black Numenoreans, a race of men thought to be extinct. The Numenoreans’ last rise was powered by Sauron, who granted them unknown dark powers in exchange for their servitude. It is thought that one such dark power was access to the Underdark, which led to the Drow’s discovery of this world.
Dragonborn – Morgoth created all Dragons in the First Age of Sun while hiding himself in the Pits of Angband. This mysterious and ferocious race of humanoid dragon was not seen in western Middle-earth until the end of the Third Age, when they came from their far eastern kingdoms to help defend against the incursions of Sauron’s northern armies. It is not known if Morgoth had a hand in their creation, though those who disdain the Dragonborn would insist that it were so.
Dwarves – no change. The only great Dwarven civilization known to exist before the Calamities is the colony created by Gimli son of Gloin in the Glittering Caves at Helm’s Deep.
Halflings – Hobbits. Still dwell mostly in the Shire, whose borders were expanded numerous times by King Ellessar.
Half-elves – no change.
Tiefling – Haradrim. Always mysterious and hidden behind their ornate cloaks and masks, after their fall at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the subsequent peace with the newly Reunited Kingdom, the Tiefling cast off their masks and revealed themselves for what they always were – a descendant of Man changed by some ancient and unknown magic.
Genasi – Easterlings. A proud and spiritual race of humanoids of unknown origin. They believe they are indigenous to Middle-earth and their ability to channel elemental energies lends credence to their claim.
Warforged – The pinnacle of the works of the Age of Man before the Twin Calamities struck. Few are known to have survived the disaster.
Orcs – Much differentiation has occurred in the species, leading to such distinct races as goblin, hobgoblin, and Orc. It is thought that most of today's hobgoblins descended from the Uruk-hai; Orc's from Sauron's own Olog-hai; and goblins from a more wild strain living and marauding in the Misty Mountains. All are disorganized and leaderless since the Fourth Age began.
I think any Middle-earth in D&D has to be more of a flavor or influence rather than literal translation. Otherwise, wizards would be rare, clerics non-existent, other planes missing, etc. I did not want to restrict my players at all, so I told them to make whatever they wanted and together we would find a way to work everything in. I wanted to use the setting for the instant recognition of history and places, rather than asking my players to remember a bunch of new names that they had never heard before.
Has anyone given thought to what the heroes of the Fellowship might look like in 4th ed? What level were they?
jh