Astral plane: same place as in 3e. Dominions include:
• Archanus: ruins of Mechanus, but see the Phrenic Planes below.
• Arvandor: previously the 1st layer of Olympus (aka Arborea).
• Carceri: same. aka Tarterus
• Celestia: same. aka Seven heavens
• Chernoggar: previously Acheron (mainly the lowest layer). Still contains Clangor and Nishrek
• Hestavar: possible Elysium (i.e. Aurosion is likely the Fortress of the Sun from Elysium's 4th layer). Some of the earthmotes may come from other planes: the Field of Ida is possibly an earthmote from Ysgard's 1st layer.
• Kalandurren: possibly the ruins of Arcadia. Contains the Citadel Exhalus (previously from the Negative Energy Plane)
• Nine Hells of Baator: same. Now contains all of the river Styx (which previously touched several planes)
• Pandemonium: Same
• Pluton: aka Hades. Was previously just the name of the 3rd layer of Hades.
• Shom: previously Mithardir/Pelion (3rd layer of Arborea, once the home of the Egyptian pantheon). Contains illumian ruins, including the city Elirhonda (previously from the Plane of Shadow).
• Tu'narath: same
• Tytherion: previously Gehenna. Contains the crawling castle (from Gehenna) and Tiamat's lair (previously from Avernus, Hell's 1st layer)
Elemental chaos: comprised of the previous elemental planes and limbo. Realms include:
• Abyss: same
• City of Brass: previously resided on the elemental plane of fire
• Sakath-Mazim: previously Muspelheim (2nd layer of Ysgard)
• Kaltenheim: previously Niflheim (2nd layer of Hades)
• Zerthadlun: Githzerai monastery previously located in Limbo
Feywild: previously called the Plane of Faerie. Also draws from parts of the Beastlands and Ysgard (Alfheim, and Nidavellir in the Feywild underdark). Locations include:
• Court of stars: previously resided in Arvandor, Arborea. Has been combined with the Seelie court (both have been known to drift around). Titania is now called Tiandra, and Oberon is now known as Oran. Queen Morwel, Faerinaal and Gwynharwyf might still exist in the Faerun version of the Feywild.
• Isle of Dread: from various prime material planes
• Mag Tureah: possibly related to the unseelie court from Phlegethon, Pandemonium
Shadowfell: previously called the Plane of Shadow. Also incorporates parts of the ethereal plane and plane of negative energy. Locations include:
• Letherna: previously Cabal Macabre from Ocanthus (4th layer of Acheron)
• Moil: previously resided in it's own cursed demiplane
• Fortress of Conclusion: previously resided on the plane of negative energy
• Domains of Dread: previously from the Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft setting)
Phrenic Planes:
• Accordant Expanse (aka 'Phrenic Plane of Orderly Thought'). Home to Mechanus (aka Nirvana).
• Far Realm: same as in 3e.
• Plane of Mirrors:
• Plane of Dreams:
Some possible causes for changes:
• (from FRCG p.5) "The Spellplague has drastically altered the cosmos." "Some ancient realms returned that had been thought gone forever (such as the Feywild), and entire planes (such as the Abyss) shifted to a new cosmic structure." Many gods died, left, merged or became exarchs. (FRCG p.62) "During the Spellplague, old dominions fell, were merged, or disappeared entirely, and new ones arose."
• (from the FR wiki and FRCG p.69) "The Shadowfell was created in 1385 DR when Shar, having successfully arranged Mystra's death, bound the energies of the Negative Energy Plane with the Plane of Shadow."
• (from Erik Scott de Bie, co-author of The Shadowfell) "most of the Raven Queen-related lore is my baby" and "I interpret the Raven Queen as basically *being* Wee Jas, albeit having absorbed Nerull's power and become a blacker deity".
• (from FRCG p.73) Asmodeus killed Azuth "and consumed his divine essence. He then ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos".
• (from Dungeon Magazine's Savage Tide campaign) Demogorgon's effort to unite his two halves could've created a savage, multiplanar backlash
• (from Expedition to Demonweb Pits) A plot by Lolth could've created a pack between Demon lords, resulting in significant fallout
• Possibly some cosmologist were (or are now) simply incorrect. This is especially likely in regard to creation myths, as no one was around to witness them.
• D&D uses the 'belief affects reality' paradigm, and if everyone now believes that the universe (or a god, or even history) is one way, then it might literally become so.
• Gods can alter their domains, planes (or possibly even history) at a whim
• Maybe Asmodeus released the Erinyes from service (allowing them to become angels of various alignments) in exchange for a pact with the succubi (edit: this might be unlikely now since the Erinyes have returned as devils in MM2)
• Possibly Yugoloths, foreseeing the loss of their neutral planes, found the Abyss easier to occupy en mass than Hell. They resumed the use of their old name "Daemon", which was pronounced (and eventually spelled) the same as "demon".
Other notes:
• Rob Schwalb stated (here) "almost everything from the Great Wheel cosmology survives in some form or fashion, though recast to fit within the new planar structure"
• Astral dominions are still separate planes. Color Veils are essentially just big portals, but they can allow dominions to appear as if floating in the astral sea.
• Each campaign setting technically has it's own overlapping 'version' of these dominions (the overlap of each version might be more a matter of belief rather than actual physicality).
• 4e takes place 100 years after 3.5 in Forgotten realms (104 years according to the dates provide in the campaign books, but there was 4 years between their printing).
• The core setting seems to have also aged 100 years since Greyhawk's 3.5e date, since the Savage Tide Adventure Path was set in the world of Greyhawk, and the Demonomicon (p.68) says: "A little over a century ago, Demogorgon executed a plan to unleash a savage tide of chaos and death across the mortal world."
• Eberron 4e has no advance in the timeline, but was considered far removed from the planescape setting.
4e takes place over 100 years after 3.5 (at least in Forgotten realms).
-Only in the Forgotten Realms (and it's 104 years, to be precise). Eberron has no such increase in the calendar, and none of the other defunct D&D settings have been updated as of right now to include one. Even with 3e "core" and 4e "core", those are two separate worlds- "PseudoGrayhawk, as opposed to "No World"- so there isn't an actual temporal increase, in that sense, either.
My interpretation is that Shom is simply the 4e version of Pelion/Mithardir with the illumians (and possibly their pantheon) cast as the long-vanished race of deities responsible for the tower holding the Last Word in Dead Gods. Ignoring the fact that the illumian race was only 600-odd years old in 3e (while the Last Word was buried for eons), this kind of makes a lot of sense; the illumians are a race that gets its power from words, after all.
-Only in the Forgotten Realms (and it's 104 years, to be precise). Eberron has no such increase in the calendar
Fair point (and thanks for the info). Added.
Hm. But Eberron doesn't have any explicit or implicit links to Planescape, and Toril does, which strikes me as a relevant distinction.
Also a fair point.
My interpretation is that Shom is simply the 4e version of Pelion/Mithardir
That was my initial conclusion too. However, I drifted towards Nirvana/Mechanus based on the following points:
1) The writers said "almost everything from the Great Wheel cosmology survives in some form or fashion"
2) The plane of Olympus/Arborea is already represented, while Mechanus/Nirvana is not (and I didn't think the writers would ignore such a major plane while giving so much attention to a minor level)
3) The illumians appear to be ultra-lawful and thus more fitting for a lawful plane than a chaotic one.
4) Orcus (who discovered The Last Word on Pelion) had a bad-on for Mechanus
However, it's too early to tell, so I've changed the note to go either way.
Nice work. Wonder if alot of people here still care.
Thanks. I doubt that people care about "Planescape" per se, but adventuring in other planes is still occurring in 4e.
Given the dearth of certain details in 4e (maps, locations, etc.), being able to use previous material can be pretty handy. Knowing what old material to best associate with the new locations was mainly the purpose of this thread.
I was using this forum only because it seemed the most suitable. I guess a post in the DM forum wouldn't hurt.
Here's the low down:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
The first post covers the stroy changes that detail what happened to the great wheel. 3rd post down covers my current cosmology.
But, to the OP: In Manual of the Planes (4e) there is the variant for the Great Wheel Cosmology is you still want to keep it.
And a few of your plane names in the OP...
Nirvana was not a seperate plane from Mechanus. The Plane's full name was Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus.
Likewise with Olympus/Arborea, it was Olympian Glades of Arborea
Greyhawk also seems likely to have aged 100 years, since the Savage Tide Adventure Path was set in the world of Greyhawk, and the Demonomicon (p.68) says: "A little over a century ago, Demogorgon executed a plan to unleash a savage tide of chaos and death across the mortal world."
In Manual of the Planes (4e) there is the variant for the Great Wheel Cosmology is you still want to keep it.
Thank you (saw it).
Nirvana was not a seperate plane from Mechanus.
Right. I was providing both of its names.
Removed "Yrnsvellar: remnant of the iron wastes (Kostchtchie's realm on the 23rd layer of the Abyss)"
The Demonomicon indicates that the iron wastes are still in the Abyss.
Erik Scott de Bie (co-author of The Shadowfell) stated "most of the Raven Queen-related lore is my baby" and "I interpret the Raven Queen as basically *being* Wee Jas, albeit having absorbed Nerull's power and become a blacker deity.", supporting the idea that Letherna is based on Cabal Macabre.
Also:
Compare Wee Jas' Cabal Macabre: "Her domain takes the form of a huge and intricately carved ice castle, that glows with a pale light. Wee Jas' powers quell the bladestorm within a half mile of her location, allowing her to maintain her realm. Cabal Macabre is located on a huge, possibly infinite shard of black ice"
with the Raven Queen's Letherna (MotP p.60): "Nestled as it is among the highest peaks of this jagged range, hers is a mighty stronghold, cut from black ice that sparkles with new snow. Towers thrust up from the maze of walls and graceful bridges, drawing the eye to the storm of souls spinning above her citadel. From this maelstrom of spirits, a grim procession descends through her gates, summoned to learn their final fates."
or for more fun, Kelemvore's Fugue Plane (FRCG p.63): "The Crystal Spire, a tower of glittering transparent rock, watches over the City of Judgment, a gray metropolis of the dead, in the otherwise flat and featureless Fugue Plane. From the Crystal Spire, Kelemvor and his seneschal, Jergal, judge the dead. Connections: Shadowfell"
An early Modron article had peviously mentioned that "the avatar of Primus that most visitors see is a humanoid that rises from an energy pool in its realm, which is known as Mechanus".
However, in 'The Plane Above' p.124, a plane called "Archanus" is a ruined mechanical domain (that Maruts are interested in rebuilding) containing clockwork parts. I get the impression that Archanus was supposted to be the ruins of Mechanus, but that the writer of the Modron article and the writer of "The Plane Above" were not on the same page.
Now a new Modron article indicates that Mechanus "is just one of many bizarre realities that coexist within an even greater planescape that scholars name the Accordant Expanse". I'm adding this to the list.
Also note, there is a Phrenic Plane of Orderly Thought mentioned in Psionic Power p.91. As an opposite of the Far Realm, this seems to be another name for the Accordant Expanse.
"Whether you use the Great Wheel or the 4th Edition cosmology or something entirely different, a diagram of the relationship among the planes is purely speculative. There is no point in the multiverse where you or any creature could stand and look at the whole arrangement of planes and how they fit together. You can't look down at the Great Wheel and see it just like it appears in the diagrams.
What's more, even the notion that Celestia is adjacent to Bytopia, as it is in the Great Wheel, is speculative. There's no border you can cross to get from one infinite plane to the next one on the wheel. If you travel directly from Celestia to Bytopia, it's through a portal, so there's no way to know whether those planes are connected as part of a Great Wheel or isolated as islands in an Astral Sea.
It's not quite so easy to explain away the differences between the circular (or spherical) arrangement of the Inner Planes and the 4th Edition notion of a single, churning Elemental Chaos where all the elements mingle. With the City of Brass, though, we have proof of the idea that the Elemental Plane of Fire as presented in earlier cosmologies is not simply an uninterrupted expanse containing nothing but fire. There's lava and molten metal, and air to breathe, even in the midst of a plane that's theoretically distinct from neighboring Elemental Planes of Air and Earth. Assuming that no mortal sage or even genie has explored the entirety of the supposed Elemental Plane of Fire, can one say definitively that it's a wholly separate plane from Air and Earth (not to mention the Paraelemental Planes of Smoke and Magma, or the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Steam and Ash)? Or do multiple fiery regions exist within a larger Elemental Chaos?
Maybe there's a definitive answer in your campaign, but I believe the core rules of the game can live with the ambiguity."