But, how far do you think he'd get if the lower planes came crashing upon the upper ones like a tidal wave? Are there any unique forms of Aasimon (they used to call them angels in 1E right?) like how there are unique forms of demon lords like Demogorgon, Pazuzzu and Orcus. Grattz is not only a unique demon but also an intermediate deity according to on Hallowed Ground (I believe that was it) But aside from uniques a regular Aasimon Deva is way more powerful than a pit fiend or Balor. Take the example that a pit fiend can once a year cast a wish, where a Deva can do it three times a day!
Not to mention that upper planes are filled with things that lower planar (especially unholy ones, like demons and devils) creatures are deathly (and I mean deathly) allergic to, you have oceans of holy water, and Elysium's tears. And suppose they managed to conquer everything, they couldn't conquer Chronias because, at least it's thought, that if you are evil and go there your soul is extinguished.
Of course the deities would definitely weigh in on this as well, they wouldn't want them invading their realms.
Sure, a Planetar or Solar can take on any ten Balors. But not hundreds of them. Not thousands. The numbers of the demons are almost literally without end. They would just keep coming.
And the devils' power is measured not by their stats, but by their twisted cunning, intricate plots, and battlefield discipline. The devils willingly lose battles, and sacrifice entire armies, if it means winning the ultimate victory. Few celestials can match that, they just don't have the experience of circular thinking or the ability to ruthlessly throw away lives.
So should the fiends unite into a single army - devilish discipline and cunning driving on the uncountable demonic hordes - then the upper planes would fall, quickly and inevitably.
Even planes such as Elysium and Chronias would eventually fall, as the spreading despair and corruption would poison their very nature.
All this is one reason I'm keeping the Blood War in my campaign.
Edit: Actually, I think I know, I tried to preview it, just like a did a minute ago, and the preview never loaded then or now.
Sure, a Planetar or Solar can take on any ten Balors. But not hundreds of them. Not thousands. The numbers of the demons are almost literally without end. They would just keep coming.
How many Balors and Solars are there? The abyss keeps changing from edition to edition, it was first 666 layers, in 2E infinite layers, 3E and 4E I'm not sure. Is each layer infinite as well?
It makes me wonder, the nine hells are infinite, going in every direction forever, but there aren't infinite devils (or any other creatures) within them. So eventually, you must get to a point where they are no more creatures in any given direction forever. Does it repeat itself in any direction in any predictable way. I remember I played Bard's tale and the levels weren't actually infinite they looped in every direction forever.
And the devils' power is measured not by their stats, but by their twisted cunning, intricate plots, and battlefield discipline. The devils willingly lose battles, and sacrifice entire armies, if it means winning the ultimate victory. Few celestials can match that, they just don't have the experience of circular thinking or the ability to ruthlessly throw away lives.
Aren't most Devils just nupperibo's and lemures? Incredibly weak and mindless beings, like skeletons and zombies. In first edition clerics and paladins could turn devils and demons as well as undead (I think they simply forgot to put this in the cleric description in the 2E player's handbook, since the description of the paladin says he can turn them, but not the cleric) I would imagine mortal petitioners and Aasimon could too.
The main thing is just how suffused with holy energy the upper planes are. There don't need to be holy creatures to do it, the very environment itself is holy, holy light, holy water, Elysium's tears, maybe even the ground and the air itself. It would seem they have a deathly allergy to the planes itself. Holy water does quite a bit of damage to even a Balor or Grattz (Lloth takes triple damage from it)
So should the fiends unite into a single army - devilish discipline and cunning driving on the uncountable demonic hordes - then the upper planes would fall, quickly and inevitably.
I'm not really sure, there may be more, lots more demons and devils, but that doesn't matter if an Aasimon can wipe tons of them in a single sweep.
Even planes such as Elysium and Chronias would eventually fall, as the spreading despair and corruption would poison their very nature.
You could think of it like fire and water, holy and unholy in this case, whereas the environs of the upper planes seems like anti-matter to these creatures. If the fire is hotter it will turn the water to steam, and if not the water will put out the flames. Don't evil creatures take tons of damage from positive energy, just like holy energy. I remember there was this spell called holy bolt or glory something in the priest's spell conpendium, it gets a bolt of energy from there, which does lots of damage to them. Normally it would just give a good or neutral creature extra hitpoints until they explode.
(Of course, conceiving of a plan doesn't make it easy to implement, but that's just one option.)
Oceans of Holy water? Fill them with your dead. Corrupt them by opening a portal to or from any of a number of water-filled Abyssal layers.
The Baatezu, in particular would easily be able to hatch a plan whereby they manipulate, say, lawful neutrals to change the alignment of Elysium and have it slide into less goody planes where they could then conquer it.
(Of course, conceiving of a plan doesn't make it easy to implement, but that's just one option.)
Oceans of Holy water? Fill them with your dead. Corrupt them by opening a portal to or from any of a number of water-filled Abyssal layers.
Hmm, is there any such thing as aholy water? There is neutral water, which is normall water, neither holy or unholy, but not of neutral holyness, would holy and unholy water cancel each other out, explode, etc?
Plus, dilute it enough with regular water, and holy water is just no longer holy water.
The only real way to corrupt the plane is to change the ideas that cause the planes to spring into being. This ties neatly into the Planescape concept of ideas rather than things being what makes stuff happen.
And, is it really throwing away lives if all that happens when a nupperibo dies is it just recycles? I know they can't be killed by things that are not holy, but if there are do they just reform a short time later? Not sure how this would work if they are not in the nine hells when they die.
It says that a manes when eaten, does not reform. I guess by this happening the petitioners soul has been destroyed, and their existence is totally over.
however, it's been said that if evil ever unites they would easily conquer the upper planes
but then some powers of neutrality would intervene (rilmani ...)
when outsider is destroyed in it's home plane it's destroyed forever (otherwise it just reforms after some time), but it's unknown what happens to the soul, maybe it merges with the plane, or with Great Unknown, or reincarnates somewhere else in the multiverse
the effective way of hurting good would be to affect beliefs in the mortal planes
I got to reveal all of this to the players recently. Considering they helped the process along a fair bit by starting a civil war in Limbo forcing the Slaadi lords to accept Grazz't's offers of help (which I also told them) their main response was: Oh
.infinite number of petitioners
however, it's been said that if evil ever unites they would easily conquer the upper planes
but then some powers of neutrality would intervene (rilmani ...)
when outsider is destroyed in it's home plane it's destroyed forever (otherwise it just reforms after some time), but it's unknown what happens to the soul, maybe it merges with the plane, or with Great Unknown, or reincarnates somewhere else in the multiverse
the effective way of hurting good would be to affect beliefs in the mortal planes
But for infinite number of petitioners wouldn't there need to be infinite mortals on the prime material plane, which there aren't. I didn't think there were infinite creatures on any plane, though the plane itself may be infinite.
it's a balance thing, to counter the number of immortals
if the number of mortal souls was finite then they would be insignificant in the major planar conflicts, like the Blood War
why do you think there isn't an infinite number of mortals?
it's a balance thing, to counter the number of immortals
I thought simply because there aren't. Because it started with one or a few mortals of each race. Most gods create their races, and there's no way they could perpetuate to infinity no matter how much they reproduced.if the number of mortal souls was finite then they would be insignificant in the major planar conflicts, like the Blood War
Are there infinite petitioners on each of the upper planes too? So it would be an even match. One infinite vs another.
I thought simply because there aren't. Because it started with one or a few mortals of each race. Most gods create their races, and there's no way they could perpetuate to infinity no matter how much they reproduced.
yea, I thought about that too
I don't know now
the Prime is infinite, the number of crystal spheres is probably infinite
it's not that they originated from a single point, but from infinite single points
but we don't know how the Prime came to being
also ''most gods create their races'', again we don't know, races believe some
god created them, but in fact their belief created the god
Believers of the Source sayA lot of the worlds on the so called “infinite” Prime Material Plane are already pretty thinly populated. When a prime ascends to the next level, then there’s one less prime in all the multiverse - unless, of course, a planar somewhere fails and falls back a rank. But sooner or later, everybody’s going to attain the ultimate goal ....
but what do they know
the Palace of Judgment (realm of the death god of the Celestial Bureaucracy) contains infinite libraries to hold the scrolls recording each petitioner’s fate, is that ''infinite'' literal or not ... ?Are there infinite petitioners on each of the upper planes too? So it would be an even match. One infinite vs another.
yes
now that I thought about the history of the planes and the infinite number of immortals, I'm no longer that convinced
the number of gehreleths is small
and the layers of Gehenna are small comparing to other infinities
the conquest of Baator
and the event of an outsider being born directly from the plane must be really rare