they changed arcanaloths into raavastas (elementals), and made them related to rakshasas
Sigil loses significance to a few other cities
Doomguard are anarchists now
no mentions of other factions that aren't into hack and slash
Githzerai now follow gods like Ioun, Corellon, Raven Queen, Vecna, Erathis, Moradin
Graz'zt worked for Asmodeus
archons are CE
City of Brass has a nice map
Bane created bladelings
everything is about gods vs. primordials, adventurers can kill them all in a few
years
slaadi are ideal monsters, cause they need no background story to attack you
I checked this out cause of the Faerie, but that part is particularly disappointing, everything is so predictable, war oriented, dull, black and white
I'm sick of this PoL thing, why would anyone think this is a good idea
I didn't see Faerie as black and white or war oriented at all. I'd like to see a lot more development of the politics, but there's a lot of stuff in the book you do not want to fight, especially on their own ground.
I didn't think it was bad - actually, I quite liked it - there's interesting stuff in there and a lot of usable locales. The cosmology is fine and they don't seem to have broken anything I cared about.
I don't think it was ever likely that the MoP would support a Planescape style faction and ideas campaign, but there's probably enough in there to allow you use the old stuff in 4e, with suitable conversions for anything you want to fight.
My impression is that I like Planescape (hence my forum handle). But, in the 4th Edition design process, the authors resolved to re-examine everything in the game and not leave anything as it has been simply for tradition. Some aspects of D&D are carryovers for historical purposes, and others are ideas so genius that they have yet to see an improvement.
But I think it's an entirely worthy goal to take a hard look at the game, including the cosmology, and try to make everything more usable in a campaign. Like Colman, I feel like the things I cared about in Planescape still exist, and that's why my Planescape campaign runs with the World Axis cosmology now.
I'll see if I can expand on some of Quale's notes.
Keepers have pretty much the same abilities as their original versions. Their backstory used to be that a Guvner created them and then sent them on missions and then they ironically killed him to keep their operations a secret. In fact, that can still be the story behind them. Their new story is that they tend to the upkeep of Gloomwrought, the major travel nexus of the Shadowfell, but no one really knows whom they serve or why.
Ravaastas aren't elementals as you would think of them by the pre-4E term "elemental." They're described as demons who were expelled from the Abyss for scheming against the demon lords. In fact, their lore says they were called arcanoloths then. The point is, they look exactly like arcanoloths, they act exactly like arcanoloths, and their stats are fine for arcanoloths.
Now, a side note on 4th Edition and yugoloths. I like the yugoloths as they used to be. Their "mercenaries that have little use for gold, hiring out to beings that clearly need no mercenaries" aspect was sort of a stretch for me, but I loved their "experimenters of Evil" role. It was enough character to separate yugoloths from other fiends, for me. In 4th Edition, as you probably know, yugoloths are categorized as demons. However, this doesn't need to be the case. If you don't want to shake things up, just have your yugoloths keep to themselves and not associate overly with other inhabitants of the Abyss, and probably are planning on turning scrag on the other fiends. Or, if you want your older-editions yugoloths back, just remove their variable resistance and replace it with something else (an easy solution would be to just give them poison resistance, but maybe someone else can come up with an iconic yugoloth ability).
Back to MotP...
Sigil doesn't lose significance, really. It's just that they also have big sections and maps for the City of Brass and Gloomwrought. They have smaller writeups for other planar cities like Hestavar, Tu'narath, Zerthadlun, Zelatar, Dis, and a few Feywild cities.
Doomguards have always been anarchists. One of their entry requirements was to interfere with the dabus and during the Faction War they handed out weapons to spread destruction. If you mean that they sound similar to the Revolutionary League, they weren't ever that far apart, really.
Other factions get mentions. The Sons of Mercy get a mention on page 27, and they featured prominently in a well-written article on DDI. The Sensates briefly show up on page 28, though without describing their mission. The Bleakers are on page 107, though their mentions focus on their self-inflicted madness. This is a break from previous canon, but I think it's no less compelling (but of course a lot briefer) than their old stuff.
Planewalker regulars may get a kick out of the mention of Gitriban on page 27. Alluvius Ruskin gets 3 paragraphs, Rule-of-Three gets 3, and Shemeska gets another 3. Some new basher named Vocar the Disobedient gets 4 paragraphs, but he seems to serve a purpose equivalent to Lothar: powerful spellcaster who collects and obsesses over secrets, though perhaps not as classy about it.
Quale refers to the gods whose temples are described in the city of Zerthadlun. To be fair, in 2nd Edition I seem to recall the githzerai spiritual life to be somewhat disappointing. They all worshiped their leader. The cool Zerthimon mythology was all pretty much invented in Torment.
The "what's with these archons?" question shouldn't really need to be asked, at this point. Archons in 4th Edition are not what the beings of the same name were in previous editions. Archons in 4th Edition are elemental soldiers working for various titans. I feel like people know this by now.
Slaad have been really difficult to make interesting, in my opinion. Everyone seems to be unwilling to write slaad with goals of any kind, which relegates them to comic relief (for which, after the exemplar of this archetype Xanxost, I have little use) or to "roll dice to see what they do" levels of unpredictability. The Manual of the Planes describes them as agents of change and entropy, who believe themselves to be the oldest beings in existence, predating even the gods and primordials. They say that they're the "ideal 'wandering monsters'" because they can pretty much be interested in doing whatever the DM wants them to do. I can't entirely agree with giving them a role that seems to take away part of what little society they ever had, but making them into opportunistic chaos-wanderers who follow the paths of chaos storms seems cool, too.
Bladelings are now "Bane made them to serve as his soldiers in the war against Gruumsh and some but not all are evil" but previously they were "who knows where they came from but some but not all are evil" so that's pretty much the same thing. I like Acheron more than its closest 4e analog, Chernoggar, but they still have the goblins of Clangor versus the orcs of Nishrek (names which, to me, always seemed like they sound better reversed) and bladelings. I think people will miss the Ocanthus ice storms, but just write them in as a planar hazard. I guess this was another hazard that the writers thought was too deadly. Maybe.
They do place some pretty big focus on the gods-vs.-primordials, but it's far from the only conflict described.
There were things I didn't particularly like.
Bladelings use the newer, "pufferfish" look. I have yet to see art for bladelings that really looks right, though. The Monstrous Compendium picture was really cool-looking, but it didn't look like they could really function with those spikes coming out. The Planes of Law picture was probably the best compromise between cool and functionality. These new ones look sort of plastic-y.
The MotP says the Blood War is in a sort of ceasefire. There's nothing really wrong with this--they always said that the Blood War waxed and waned--so it's just a bit of story advancement to say that now it's in a lull, but could start up again at any time. It made for great adventuring to have a full-scale war going on at the DM's disposal, but I can see how the threat of the Blood War resuming could be fodder for adventures. Still, I'd like to see what the arms-dealers have to say about the ceasefire. That could be some good campaigning.
The Styx is said to only flow through the Nine Hells, and isn't ascribed any memory-sapping powers. True, amnesiac heroes were overdone even before Torment gave us the coolest one ever. But I like the Styx the way it was before if only for the adventure that I never used where the PCs had to hunt down a lost memory in the glaciers of Ocanthus or for the cool imagery of Blood War troops floating to other planes on Styx barges. But you could still have demonic forces crossing Avernus on barges.
Vlaakith is still alive, they say. An easy change.
They gave Pandemonium its gale-force winds, but not its insanity-inducing winds. I'd like to see this effect written up as a disease-track sort of condition that provides a steady drag on unprepared travelers throughout their foray.
The new plane-jamming vehicles are very cool, but they seem to almost all be boats (the chaos-glider is a sort of sailed zeppelin). Now, I can't come up with a better idea, but I'd be pretty impressed if they had other ideas.
The Spelljamming ships that use the Astral Sea is alot of fun IMO.
I suspect that "in a sort of ceasefire", to the average innocent bystander, looks a lot like total war in some spots. It's just isolated spots, and the war's only total by human standards.
Quale, I really feel like you're making some rather unfair posts. This reads much more like a list of complaints you have about the MotP rather than a review.
I was just pointing out some info from it, wasn't really criticizing
Ravaastas aren't elementals as you would think of them by the pre-4E term "elemental." They're described as demons who were expelled from the Abyss for scheming against the demon lords. In fact, their lore says they were called arcanoloths then. The point is, they look exactly like arcanoloths, they act exactly like arcanoloths, and their stats are fine for arcanoloths.
they act like arcanaloths in the part where they are schemers, but there's plenty of schemer races, what made arcanaloths unique from them is gone, all the jobs they did for yugoloths e.g. ''science of evil'' stuff
Sigil doesn't lose significance, really. It's just that they also have big sections and maps for the City of Brass and Gloomwrought. They have smaller writeups for other planar cities like Hestavar, Tu'narath, Zerthadlun, Zelatar, Dis, and a few Feywild cities.
how come the City of Brass is the oldest now
I don't see what's the fascination with this place
250 000 for Sigil, that's too low for the place connected with everything, 25 million would be more logical imho
Doomguards have always been anarchists. One of their entry requirements was to interfere with the dabus and during the Faction War they handed out weapons to spread destruction. If you mean that they sound similar to the Revolutionary League, they weren't ever that far apart, really.
anarchism isn't nihilism, and they eliminated my favorite faction with this (ok, not, but it's an attack)
the Doomguard of Salt represent 4e style of play
Quale refers to the gods whose temples are described in the city of Zerthadlun. To be fair, in 2nd Edition I seem to recall the githzerai spiritual life to be somewhat disappointing. They all worshiped their leader. The cool Zerthimon mythology was all pretty much invented in Torment.
I prefer nothing to Moradin
it's a waste not to use Zerthimon, I like the god-king too, but as a more solitary figure
The "what's with these archons?" question shouldn't really need to be asked, at this point. Archons in 4th Edition are not what the beings of the same name were in previous editions. Archons in 4th Edition are elemental soldiers working for various titans. I feel like people know this by now.
so they couldn't come up with another name?
not to mention it contradicts with the mythology, like making devils liberators
The new plane-jamming vehicles are very cool, but they seem to almost all be boats (the chaos-glider is a sort of sailed zeppelin). Now, I can't come up with a better idea, but I'd be pretty impressed if they had other ideas.
I like the plane-jamming ships, and the idea of coming up with new, different types, also that all the attention isn't on portals
now to criticize, people say what do you expect 3e MotP hasn't had much PS either, it's a waste when you have all this existing, beautiful lore and instead you invent this generic thing without soul
Gloomwrought is cool, there was another shadow city in some Dragon magazine, with those two you got something
The Sinkers are essentially this philosophy taken several steps further. Doomguard belief dislikes stability and order of any kind, not strictly government-related like the Anarchists. They believe that everything is destined to fall apart into entropy and chaos anyway. As a result, it wouldn't be a stretch to say many Doomguard have anarchist tendencies. Some Doomguard are content to let things "naturally" fall apart, but a good many Sinkers have always actively sought the destruction of order and stability. Government, being an ordering of society, would be something the Doomguard is naturally opposed to.
From a Planescape perspective, the book is utter screed, but as a standalone book, I think the 4e Manual of the Planes is average. There's nothing in it that particularly makes me jump out and go "ooh!" but there's not much that really makes me annoyed or upset either. My biggest gripe is how small it is, which is a continuing trend in D&D books lately. As Clueless (I think) over at Planewalker said, bigger font and fewer pages means less meaningful content, so I don't think it was worth the $30 on the cover.
The Feywild is about what I expected, and I didn't see much in it that was particularly exciting. I do like the idea of Shadowfell being a Ravenloft-esque place where Naughty People go to be forever punished by their own sins. It actually gives the Shadow plane a sinister feel beyond just the gloom and darkness. I'm a little dubious about the need for planar equivalents to the Underdark, though.
Another major sticking point for me is the lack of goodly exemplars. We've got something for every alignment except good. "Angels" are no longer exemplars of good, but the servants of all the gods, good or evil. While this works in the context of the gods vs. primordials, I am not so fond of de-emphasizing the good avatars when the PoL concept at its core seems very much centered on ideas of good vs. evil.
anarchism isn't nihilism, and they eliminated my favorite faction with this
it's not surprising that they do that, due to propaganda of the system regular people today associate anarchism mindless destruction
look at the media coverage of the recent events in Athens
while it's true that some anarchists think that true freedom can only exist after everything is gone, many have other beliefs
there's no such thing as an anarchist faction, never were, what's there to eliminate
and it might be useful now that everybody thinks sinkers are anarchists
So long as in the end there is no change in state.
Making the Sinkers into crazy 'let's riot for lulz' would not be the way to go about it.
Of course, every Faction has morons, and it would not surprise me if many Namers in the Doomguard didn't really give a **** about the deeper philosophy of their Faciton; the are just interested in tearing stuff down.
Certain laws, for the Doomguard, promote the cause of Entropy and thus should be enacted
it's not surprising that they do that, due to propaganda of the system regular people today associate anarchism mindless destruction
happy new 1984