Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mist-Bound Aug 02, 2009 17:59:34	This is more... brainstorming then anything else, and the title is somewhat misleading. I really enjoyed Planescape: Torment, and I really like 4th edition. So, I was wondering: what elements of the party characters (Annah, Morte, Dak'kon, Fall-From-Grace, Ignus, Vhailor, Nordom) would need alteration to fit in to the cosmological changes caused by 4th edition? For example, as a Githzerai, 4e Dak'kon would have hailed from the Elemental Chaos, where he and his fellows would have forced Shra'kt'lor-Drowning to form and stabilize from the upheaving elements around them. Fall-From-Grace, meanwhile, would have been born a Devil (or Baatezu) and while she could have still been sold to slavery, the idea of 'creativity to outwit tyranny' from her backstory doesn't quite work, as I see it. The basic ideas still work- Dak'kon as one whose doubt caused the destruction of his city, Fall-From-Grace as a risen Fiend, Vhailor as an unquiet spirit held on by his fanatical devotion to justice, Nordom as a Modron who has gone rogue thanks to an experiment gone wrong, Morte as an escaped Petitioner from the Nine Hells, Annah as a Sigil Tiefling, Ignus as a mad wizard transformed into a living conduit for elemental fire... it's just that certain fine details don't work. What are these details, and how could they be tweaked to fit in with the way 4e has shaped the cosmos?
#2 factol_rhys_dup Aug 03, 2009 8:51:10	Divine Power has some cool options for clerics who want to avoid bloodshed, like Grace. I would build her with that sort of build in mind. As 4e has more uses than simply Turn Undead, Grace's huge Charisma score would arguably make her a better 4e cleric than any other edition. The problem is that her racial abilities don't really exist yet. She needs some kind of charm power and/or life-draining kiss. I would probably just re-skin her cleric powers as occasionally being supernatural mind-influence. And she'd probably have to be statted as a tiefling. I think Morte presents some problems. He's mostly around for personality, an it would be really difficult in 4e to make a character who is just a floating skull. And a 4e fighter would have a tough time making do with just a vicious bite. I think he's best as the Nameless One's familiar (there's a flying skull familiar in the Dragon article), since his biggest role is wisecracking. If you really want to design a homebrew race for him and make him a full PC, I'd be tempted to go Bard with him, since his taunting is more distinctive than any of his fighting skills. Dak'kon would probably be best as a Swordmage, class/race synergy be damned. Vhailor could be a darkly themed Paladin (a Paladin on the warpath is exactly the mood the Torment designers set out for). Annah is a great Artful Dodger Rogue. Nordom, though, has it tough. Fighters are about more than a high attack bonus now, and they don't do ranged attacks very much. Rogues and Rangers both have crossbow builds, but somehow they feel too serious for such a nutty character. I guess Rogue is best. He'll use different tactics so hopefully he wouldn't step on Annah's toes (tail) too much. You'll have to stat a rogue modron, though, or use warforged stats. But the Nameless One could really embrace the new options. If he learned magic from Ravel, he could go places as a dark-pact Warlock. He could embrace his past lives and lead others as a Warlord. I think his race is best as a Deva, actually, since those powers suggest his past lives. Radiant/necrotic resistance goes along with regeneration. Or perhaps homebrew him too. He certainly deserves the special treatment. Deva past lives mixed with shifter regeneration or perhaps warforged resilience.
#3 Mist-Bound Aug 03, 2009 22:27:25	I was actually more wandering "what elements of their backstories need tweaking to fit the World Axis cosmology", but thanks. Ironically enough, our thoughts on what the 4e stats for the characters mesh pretty much perfectly. Though I have to wonder... perhaps the Avenger class would suit Vhailor better? Vhailor considers himself "Justice's Executioner", after all, and Factions are philosophies of such power that I'd consider them valid "fuel" for Divine classes... it's only that Heavy Armor of his that's the problem. Similarly, I wonder if Fall-From-Grace mightn't be more of an Invoker with the Covenant of Preservation, or even an Invoker/Cleric hybrid-classed? If the Soulknife, or a similarly themed Psionic Defender, comes out in the PHB3, do you think that might suit Dak'kon best? After all, aren't Githzerai normally associated fairly heavily with psionics and mental discipline? It also covers his *Karach* blade as well. Also, as well as the characters' backstories, are there any elements of Torment's general storyline that the different cosmology of 4e interferes with? Sigil still exists, the Lady still rules it and entraps those who displease her in her mazes, Night Hags exist, Carceri exists... I think the only problems are Trias the Fallen and Curst. The latter could be explained as a lesser dominion in the Astral or even as a city on some forgotten Prime world with a major portal to Carceri at its center, one strong enough to pull it through when Trias is freed... Trias, though, I'm drawing a bit of a blank on.
#4 factol_rhys_dup Aug 04, 2009 9:20:47	In my home 4e Planescape game, I've been toying with the idea of replacing "The World" with "The Outlands". The Outlands then become the "mortal" world. They retain their dusty badlands look with the Spire in its rightful place, but they also become home to mortal empires, dragons, giants, and all that stuff. PCs who adventure on the Outlands might arrive in a gate-town and then move off into a fantasy kingdom more typical of (but still not quite typical of) D&D before returning through another portal. With the Astral Sea as "The Plane Above," it becomes the expansive night sky, with Sigil floating so high above that it's rarely visible through the clouds. When it is able to be seen, the real greybeards understand that its apparent position is deceptive: it can never be reached by traveling from the ground. Actually, Dak'kon might make for a good Avenger. It's a quick and speedy warrior who fights with discipline, focus, and sharpened steel. I feel pretty solid about Vhailor as a darkish Revenant Paladin. I think the lack of details on Mechanus in 4e is an opportunity for exploration. Rather than just re-writing it as an Astral dominion of whirring gears, why not take it in a new direction? Perhaps modrons are now wandering mathematicians who travel the Astral Sea searching for some ultimate truth? Regarding the other cosmology stuff, you'd probably have to move the Fortress of Regrets to the Shadowfell, which words perfectly and is a painless alteration.
#5 Mist-Bound Aug 04, 2009 11:26:10	The only real problem I have with Dak'kon as an Avenger is that Githzerai, particularly him, are pretty much atheists, focusing on the power within (which is why I suggested a psionic class)... that said, I do agree with you that he really might be more of a Striker then a Defender; he packed a punch, but he always had poor defenses. These are the main contradictions I'm trying to figure out... Dak'kon: was a member of a githzerai city in Limbo, Shra'kt'lor-Drowning, and his doubt in githzerai beliefs caused others to doubt, leaving the city weak to attack by enemies and causing its utter destruction. Problem: the githzerai now live in the Elemental Chaos, where they use their wills to force the normally seething elements to adhere to a stable form to support them... okay, this may be less of a problem then I had initially thought. Fall-From-Grace: was born a Tanar'ri (Demon) and sold to the Baatezu (Devil), from whom she won her freedom by getting them to wager on a contest that she won due to being inherently more creative, thanks to her chaotic background. Problem: Succubi are Devils in 4e- the sporadic nature of the Blood War in 4e might also be a problem. Nordom: a Modron who was seperated from the others in the Rubikon (a mutable dungeon-complex generated in order to study the patterns of the adventurer) and thusly fell to the touch of Limbo (where it had to be built, so the Modrons could essentially think it into existence) faster then they did. Problem: Limbo doesn't exist... though the 'shaped by thoughts' thing could mean that the Elemental Chaos is just fine for their purposes too. ...Really, now that I think about it, the biggest problem I'm having is figuring out how to tweak Fall-From-Grace's backstory to fit in with the different cosmology of 4e.
#6 factol_rhys_dup Aug 04, 2009 13:04:43	Re: Fall-from-Grace Succubi are devils in 4e. Devils, in the time since 2e, have emphasized less Law and order and increasingly authority and compacts. I remember Grace's story about being sold into slavery, but I forgot that she escaped due to a creative use of her chaotic nature. Which is odd, since her in-game alignment was actually Lawful Neutral. I don't want to completely reverse her story, but maybe she escaped by cleverly using a loophole in the wording of her slavery. Maybe she was born to a minor devil noble who sold her to a higher-up in order to pay off a debt, and she proved her keen mind by besting her slaver. Or, perhaps you keep her as a fiercely independent individual and say that she escaped slavery by breaking out of her society's code. I like the idea that devils are so bound by rules that they can sell each other. Re: Nordom While the Elemental Chaos is noisy and messy, and inherits the legacy of Limbo's themes from previous editions, it doesn't seem to me to carry on the same ideas of wacko looniness that expect-anything Limbo did. To say that a creature of order loses its mind when it is exposed to the plane doesn't sit as well with me as it would have under the Great Wheel cosmology. In 4e, the Far Realm is probably a better explanation for Nordom's insanity. Rubikon is probably floating in the Astral Sea, and perhaps they needed some chaotic matter from the Far Realm in order to disrupt the Astral fabric. The Astral Sea is the domain of the deities and for the little modrons to re-create its pattern as they desired they had to destabilize it by introducing some wholly foreign materials.
#7 Mist-Bound Aug 04, 2009 20:47:34	It was less being exposed to Limbo and more being stuck there for thousands of years without any connection to the higher ranks of his kind (the Pentadrone having been disintegrated by the Evil Wizard Construct), nothing to do but sit around while still having a fully sentient mind and slowly go mad. All of the Modrons in the Rubikon were going rogue, Nordom was just the most far developed, due to having been locked in total isolation. That said, the idea that the Rubikon was the result of Modrons messing with the Far Realm makes a lot of sense to me, and I quite like the idea. I also like the idea that Fall-From-Grace was always slightly different to her diabolic brethren and used that to both break free of their culture and ascend beyond her lineage- keeps the basic details of her 'elevation' the same without any contradictions. The Blood War isn't the all-enveloping topic in the World Axis like it was in the Great Wheel, so she doesn't need to have seen both sides of the War to have grown sick with it. What matters is that she was a slave, she freed herself, and the same mindset that let her do so also persuaded her that Evil wasn't the cause she wanted to follow. Out of curiosity, from her behavior in Torment (I know Torment says that she's Lawful Neutral), would you classify her as Unaligned or Good in 4e terms?
#8 factol_rhys_dup Aug 05, 2009 10:46:08	I think she's absolutely Good. She believes in justice and respect, and she wants to help the Nameless One out of sympathy. You could play her as Unaligned, in which she's an observer of life who wants to understand the planes but recognizes that sometimes life isn't fair and it's not her job to fix it. Or you could play her as Lawful Good, in which she's a redeemed fiend who believes in helping others attain the peace of mind that she's found.
#9 Steveman Aug 05, 2009 22:17:57	I think she's Unaligned in 4e. Not that she's not well on her way of becoming a good person, but because she is generally unconcerned with her place in the dichotomy of good vs. evil. She has broken away from her always chaotic evil roots and now just wants to experience life in the cage. Good, Evil, Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are strong extremes, and are usually people who are either greatly concerned with their position in the grand scheme of things, or who's instinctive behavior is so extreme that they ooze a specific alignment.
#10 factol_rhys_dup Aug 16, 2009 21:12:49	Not that anyone asked me to do this, but... I think she works as a pretty effective healer. She's not optimized in any real way, but I think she can heal effectively (her only job, really, in Torment, by spell and by faction power), but she also has some nice Cleric spells that charm opponents, luring them closer. What else would you expect from a succubus? I know she disdains weapons, but I felt that a spiked gauntlet was a good stand-in for her claws, especially a magic one that has the Lifedrinker enchantment. Her damage output is limited, but she makes for a surprisingly good controller to go along with her leader role. Fall-from-Grace Fall-from-Grace, level 18 Tiefling, Cleric, Compassionate Healer Build: Shielding Cleric Background: Birth - On Another Plane, Geography - Urban, Touched by an Angel (Perception class skill) FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 13, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 21, Cha 23. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 12, Con 10, Dex 9, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 16. AC: 29 Fort: 22 Reflex: 23 Will: 29 HP: 108 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 27 TRAINED SKILLS Religion +16, History +16, Insight +19, Diplomacy +22 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Arcana +11, Bluff +17, Dungeoneering +14, Endurance +8, Heal +14, Intimidate +15, Nature +14, Perception +16, Stealth +12, Streetwise +15, Thievery +8, Athletics +11 FEATS Cleric: Ritual Caster Level 1: Infernal Blessing Level 2: Durable Level 4: Healer's Implement Level 6: Defensive Grace Level 8: Alertness Level 11: Blood Thirst Level 12: Resounding Thunder Level 14: Mettle Level 16: Surging Flame Level 18: Saving Grace POWERS Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy Cleric at-will 1: Sacred Flame Cleric at-will 1: Priest's Shield Cleric encounter 1: Bane Cleric daily 1: Astral Condemnation Cleric utility 2: Divine Aid Cleric encounter 3: Command Cleric daily 5: Iron to Glass Cleric utility 6: Bastion of Health Cleric encounter 7: Denunciation Cleric daily 9: Flame Strike Cleric utility 10: Mass Cure Light Wounds Cleric encounter 13: Deadly Lure (replaces Bane) Cleric daily 15: Purifying Fire (replaces Astral Condemnation) Cleric utility 16: Cloak of Courage Cleric encounter 17: Enthrall (replaces Command) ITEMS Ritual Book, Lifedrinker Spiked gauntlet +3, Darkhide Armor of Cleansing +4, Symbol of Freedom +4, Star Ruby Ring (paragon tier), Cherished Ring (paragon tier), Safewing Amulet +2, Polyglot Gem (heroic tier), Potion of Vitality (paragon tier) (2), Sandals of Precise Stepping (heroic tier), Rope of Slave Fighting (heroic tier), Skeleton Key (heroic tier), Cynic's Goggles (heroic tier) RITUALS Gentle Repose
#11 Mist-Bound Aug 27, 2009 19:34:59	Thank you, that really looks good. Hmm... I know that Morte is technically a Fighter in the game, but I think he'd work best in 4e as, basically, a kind of suped-up Skull Familiar, or maybe even a kind of companion beast. Do you have any thoughts on what the other characters would look like? Without going into the stats, my thoughts are... Vhailor is an Unaligned (borderline evil, really) Human Revenant Avenger (Censure of Retribution) with a feat for Heavy Armour Annah is an Unaligned Tiefling Rogue (Artful Dodger Style) Nordom is an Unaligned Rogue Modron Rogue (Brutal Scoundrel) or Ranger (Archery) Ignus is an Evil Human (Revenant?) Sorcerer (Dragon Magic) with Fire Resistance and focusing on 'refluffed' Fire spells Dak'kon is a Good Githzerai Swordmage- or a "Mindblade" type class when the PHB 3 comes out
#12 BendBarsLiftGates Aug 27, 2009 23:23:29	Here's my first post in the new forums... picking up where I left off. Mist-Bound, this is Factol Rhys. I had two aliases in my old account and it seems each one has been made into its own account on the new forums. I kind of knew it was going to happen, but figured I'd let fate decide which name I ended up with. As it turns out, I can seemingly only sign in as Bendbarsliftgates. While it's a mouthful, I'm settling into it.
#13 BendBarsLiftGates Aug 27, 2009 23:29:22	Oh, yeah. And, while I was bored last weekend...   I made Vhailor as an Unaligned Revenant Paladin. Turns out, the Ardent Paladin build lets you pump wisdom and constitution. He's a big, bruising guy who wears huge armor and curb-stomps his way through melee combat. He fits the flavor shockingly well. The build doesn't even require a holy symbol, as I recall. Almost everything he does is a weapon power, and sometimes he deals out fire damage (since his old axe Final Justice used to deal fire damage). Surprisingly, there were a handful of paragon paths that all contended for him. Son of Mercy, Justiciar, Grey Guard. I think I ended up going with Son of Mercy. The name is a bit ironic, since he was far from that side of the faction, but it's still a strong Mercykiller paragon path.   Ignus, meanwhile, is a Chaotic Evil Genasi Warlock. I would have made him a sorcerer, but I didn't like all the dragony names for the fire powers. I know it's just a name, but I had more fun making him an Infernal Pact Warlock. I managed to do him for 18 levels without resorting to anything too devil-y. Just lots of fire damage on a widespread area, with some occasional nasty effects for his corrupting, devastating, withering magic. It's surprisingly easy to tweak out a spellcaster for fire damage. Get the right wand, take a feat or two, and make him a Genasi with the Wildfire Genasi paragon path.
#14 Mist-Bound Aug 28, 2009 15:32:55	Either way works for me- I was inclined to consider Vhailor an Avenger because of the whole "track down the Guilty and execute them", which feels more... I don't know, proactive maybe, then the Paladin. Either way. I see. Well, I'll basically resum the PM I sent you here again: I lost all of our PMs on "Neo-Modrons" when the forum got shifted around, but if you still want to discuss the idea with me, I'm game to keep on talking. Perhaps you could make a topic here in the Planescape board, so we aren't at the risk of losing it? Also, I recall we were of the inclination that Neo-Modrons fuse together in sequential stages to advance through the castes- two Rank 1s become a Rank 2, three Rank 2s become a Rank 3, etcetera. Well, I was thinking that, for simplicity's sake, a Neo-Modron has a number of personalities equal to their rank, so all of the component minds basically fuse together into a single greater mind, and the Neo-Modron has an amount of greater minds determined by their rank. So a Rank 3 Neo-Modron only has 3 personalities, but each of those personalities is the unification of two sub-personalities, one of the original Rank 2s who has become a singular entity rather then a plural. Am I making any sense? Secondly, and I admit I may have Transformers on the brain, what do you think of the idea that Neo-Modrons have a number of faces equal to their rank? I'm not really sure how this would work- they could have multiple faces on their body, or a "head" that's really a revolving set of masks inside an over-helm, sliding around to show the right face, or even a head that's basically a metallic puzzle box, slots and plates and widgets that slide and flick and click into different arrangements to make different faces.
#15 Mist-Bound Sep 03, 2009 13:45:52	Hmm... for some reason, I just can't help but wonder what precise elements of the 2e Torment conflict with the changes of the 4e Cosmology. Can anyone help me pinpoint precisely what troubles I need to address for this issue? The Blood War: this exists in the 4e cosmology. However, it's not the eternal battle of demon and devil it was in 2e and 3e, where there were whole infinite realities covered in endless battles. It ebbs and flows, one side ascending, only to fall, whereupon it breaks down while both sides rebuild their strength. The demons want the Shard back, the devils want the Heart of the Abyss for themselves. When it reaches its full strength, it affects all of the Planes in some way, but it doesn't dominate 24/7 the way it did in previous editions. It's fully possible for a soul of corrupt nature to be condemned to fight in the Blood War, particularly if they made some manner of infernal covenant while alive, so the Nameless One facing eternity as a soldier in the Blood War once he rejoins with his mortality is not something that will vanish. Curst: this could be a demiplane or perhaps even some kind of 'extrusion' of Carceri, in either case both sustained and threatened by its portal to the Red Prison. Trias's imprisonment could be a kind of metaphysical 'anchor'; while he remains bound in Curst, it cannot be pulled into Carceri- but when he is freed, the demiplane is absorbed into Carceri, as in canon. Fjhull Forked-Tongue: how might Trias have tricked him into his canonical ill-fated bargain? Perhaps his hiding place (the skeleton of a giant monster in the middle of a desolate canyon) is actually an "Astral Corpse" in 4e? The skeleton of a slain deity or primordial floating forever on a chunk of stone? That's all of the problems that come to me off the top of my head... what others are there?