5e DPR King Candidates
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This handbook can be edited on this google doc
This is a compilation of high damage builds, and overall combat superiority. We calculate average damage to an evenly group of monsters(see post 5) to get an estimate of how good it does overall in killing things. We keep track of these estimations in the above Google docs that anyone can edit and update. What metric will be used is under still construction.
mellored wrote:
Sifaka wrote:
borg285 wrote:
mellored wrote:
borg285 wrote:
is Dual Rapier Wielder Rogue will be a DPR King? =) Seems to be that he will outshine even the GWF Fighter, at least at low levels.
Grahmir wrote:
Proletheus wrote:
Here's two candidates, presented at levels 1, 5, 12, 17 and 20 against roughly scaling AC (since we still don't have a consistent metric for that, it seems):
Lv. 1, +5 vs. AC 15
STR 16 (+3), prof +2, rage damage +2
.5*(6.5+5) + .05*(13+5)
= 6.65
Lv. 5, +7 vs. AC 16 (w/ advantage)
STR 18 (+4), prof +3, rage damage +2, Extra Attack, Reckless Attack
(.7425*(6.5+6) + .0975*(13+6)) * 2
= 11.13 * 2
= 22.26
w/ Frenzy: 11.13 * 3 = 33.39
Lv. 12, +4 vs. AC 17 (w/ advantage)
STR 20 (+5), prof +4, rage damage +3, Extra Attack, Reckless Attack, Brutal Crit I, Great Weapon Master (-5/+10)
(.5425*(6.5+18) + .0975*(19.5+18)) * 2
+ (1-.9025^2) * 16.95
= (16.95 * 2) + 3.14
= 37.04
w/ Frenzy: 16.95 * 3 = 50.85
Lv. 17, +6 vs. AC 18 (w/ advantage)
STR 20 (+5), prof +6, rage damage +4, Extra Attack, Reckless Attack, Brutal Crit III, Great Weapon Master (-5/+10), Retaliation
(.6*(6.5+19) + .0975*(32.5+19)) * 3
+ (1-.9025^2) * 20.32
= (20.32 * 3) + 3.77
= 64.73
w/ Frenzy: 20.32 * 4 = 81.28
Lv. 20, +8 vs. AC 19 (w/ advantage)
STR 24 (+7), prof +6, rage damage +4, Extra Attack, Reckless Attack, Brutal Crit III, Great Weapon Master (-5/+10), Retaliation
(.6525*(6.5+21) + .0975*(32.5+21)) * 3
+ (1-.9025^2) * 23.16
= (23.16 * 3) + 4.3
= 73.78
w/ Frenzy: 23.16 * 4 = 92.64
GladiusLegis Recorded.
What are people's thoughts on having an arena for level 17?
The current level markers are 1, 6, 12, and 20. Should we move it to level 5 and not give a bias towards 1 level dip builds?
Ah, I didn't even catch the current markers. I just broke them off where I thought they made sense. Lv. 6 is fine. (Both my builds don't change DPR-wise between 5 and 6 anyway.)
Given we will most certainly see magic weapons in the DMG, which may have damage bonuses as high as +5, and given that a feat allows you to dual wield rapiers (and possibly D10 bastard swords if those show up at one point), how would those calculations change for, say, a 20th level fighter?
Also, the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style allows you to reroll a 1 or 2 on a damage die. Does it allow you to only reroll *one* damage die, or all? Because if it's the latter, it makes greatsword a MUCH better weapon for a fighter than a Greataxe. Likewise, in reverse, would a Barbarian's Brutal Critical ability allow added 2D6 for a greatsword, or just 1D6? I suspect both of those wil be errataed or FAQed pretty soon.
Level 6: Human - Use Variant Human Traits to get +1 STR and +1 Con, take Great Weapon Master feat at 1, +2 STR from attribute bump at level 4
level 5 Barbarian, level 1 Fighter
Weapon: Maul
Using Rage, Frenzy, and Reckless attack from Barb
Great Weapon Fighting from Fighter (reroll 1's and 2's on each Maul die)
Great Weapon Master -5 to attack and +10 to damage
STR +4 , Proficiency +3, Rage Damage +2
Total of +2 to hit with advantage
Total of +19 to damage on a hit
Average Damage of Maul with GWF on hit = 8.3
Chance to Hit (no crit) with Advantage against AC 16 = .48
Chance to Hit (Crit) with Advantage against AC 16 = .1
Damage on Hit (no crit) = 8.3+19 = 27.3
Damage on Hit (Crit) = 8.3+8.3+19 = 35.6
Average Damage Per swing = .48*27.3 + .1*35.6 = 16.7
W Frenzy 3x16.7 = 50.1
Shoot me questions or let me know if I screwed anything up.
is there a reason half-orc isn't being considered and halfling is overly considered? is the lucky racial that powerful? not saying a re-roll isn't, but would it be the same percentage to have the re-roll go off as it would the savage damage? i dont know this math like you guys, but i would love to see half-orc also worked up vs the halfing.
borg285 wrote:
borg285 wrote:
Am I missing something, or are you guys ignoring mages and focusing on martial DPR?
KarlB wrote:
Lord_Phobetor wrote:
borg285 wrote:
Lord_Phobetor wrote:
The other problem we run into with this is the Concentration spell question. Since I'm obsessed with warlocks, I'll use them as an example - There's some serious boosts in power with, say, a Hex spell up. How often should we calculate being hit, and when a Concentration spell drops?
How do we account for something like Armor of Agrys up and dealing damage to anyone who attacks?
GladiusLegis wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
borg285 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
borg285 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
I suggest for the DPR chart to be organized with something like this to hopefully allow us to add all kinds of builds, just not martial. A short rest lentient enviroment, a long rest lentient enviroment or no rest enviroment will greatly influence the viability of a build
Hitty McExamplename
Damage per round w/no rest resources
- Longsword of hitting: 1d8 (4.5) damage per round
Average damage sequence: 4.5, 4.5, 4.5, 4.5...
Short Rest Resources
- Action Surge x 3: 2d8 (9) damage on a single round
- Bearshape: 1d10 (5.5) damage per round, claws
Average damage sequence: 9, 9, 9, 5.5, 5.5, 5.5 ....
Long Rest Resources
- Wombonova of cool: 1d30 (15.5) on a single round
Average damage sequence: 15.5, 9, 9, 9, 5.5, 5.5, 5.5, 5.5 ....
=========
I remember seeing on 4chan that Brownbear MoOnion Druid on levels 2 to 4 outdamage any martial build, I dunno how that would be charted
borg285 wrote:
I could see the rogue getting advantage, but only if he's using his bonus action to hide, takes experties in stealth, and is ranged.
Yeah, but even then you actually need places to hide. (Or invisibility of some sort.)
Lvl 1 Fighter, Human (Varient), 18 Dex, Crossbow Expert, Archer Style:
2 +8, 1d6+4 attacks per turn.
Using the model posted on page 1 that hits always/misses on a 1 (I forget witch).
Assuming 1 isn't an auto fail (because easy maths), that's a DPR of 15.35.
That's a KPR of 1.something.
Assuming a 1 is an auto-fail, that should be 14.6 DPR, so not quite a kill per round.
(Disclaimer: My maths may be wrong)
I'm leaning more towards Mellored's
4 rounds per combat
4 combats per day. Broken up as follows.
- 8 hours of long rest.
- Combat 1: Goblins ambush you.
- 15 minutes in between.
- Combat 2: You ambush Orcs but one gets away.
- 1 short rest (1 hour) in between.
- Combat 3: Orcs ambush you.
- 15 minute in between
- Combat 4: Bust open Orc king's main hall with guns-a-blazin.
Take the mean of all 16 rounds.
Most martial types will be doing the same thing every encounter, with a few unwilling to cast their buff of awesomeness on the first ambush.
I'm considering median but fear that it either biases martial, or gives an unfair advantage to large area attackers. Previously I tried for a diminishing returns conversion for area attackers but it wasn't well loved by either side. We're going to have to confront that biased beast at some point.
Yunru wrote:
This is a bit of a side note: but if the rogue got +1d6 SA / level instead of +1d6 / 2 levels, it does better than the vengeance paladin by an average of 25% more DPR, which I think is a good margin to treat as an upper limit of damage. I know WoTC would never accept it, but having SA only working 1/round makes for a nice limiting factor for the DPR king.
The hyper rogue does 4.67 * Level + 9.5 DPR
The normal rogue does 2.37 * Level + 10.8 DPR
Compare these to the current live vengeance paladin's 4.28 * level + 2.3.
If I could design it I'd put the rogue on top from the get go with either +1d6/level or +1d4/(2 levels), and increase the die size by 1 step every 4 levels. This would have a slightly higher slope, lower starting point, and lower maximum. This would encourage someone to stay rogue for longer, rather than dipping for 1-2 levels.
New to this charop stuff, going to spend tomorrow figuring out the doc and the math but i wanted to get this idea out there.
Human paladin takes variant for 16str 16 cha, takes GWF feat at lvl1. maxes str and cha and takes the Savage feat. Throw in a warlock multiclass of at least 2 levels and youve got hasted smites on short rests and a lifedrinker pact blade that does an extra +5 damage per hit. I'll edit this with numbers soon but i think it could come close to frenzy barb.
Also, whats the easiest way to get bonus action attacks?
borg285 wrote:
borg285 wrote:
Necriss wrote:
Proletheus wrote:
Necriss wrote:
Necriss wrote:
If you use, or have a hand free (and the stats) for, a hand crossbow, the easiest way is Crossbow Expert. Flat out extra attack as a bonus action.
Monks are proably the easiest bonus attack.
Polearm Master also gets you one, at reach, no less.
Daganev wrote:
Lord_Phobetor wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Does this edition need a MDPR (Martial Damage Per Round), and CDPR (Caster Damage per Round) seperate metric. It's ideal to compare apples to apples, so that could be done.
No. We simply put the 2 candidates in the same reasonable scenario that is between the 2 extremes: nova with a prep round <----> Block of tofu . This model day comes when we have a better understanding of the designers intents either monster manual and/or DMG. We probably can fill in the gaps with some knowledge (designers might want 50% chance to hit for the fighter through all levels implying the target AC of an evenly matched monster). Saves and HP might also be able to get some help from interpolation. However battles per day and rests per day is still undergoing analysis.
16 Dex/16 Cha halfling
Ranger 1
Ranger 2 - hunters mark + archery
Ranger 3 - Hunter extra d8 when target at less than full hitpoints 1/turn (colossus)
Ranger 4 - Dex 18
Ranger 5 - extra attack
Rogue 4 (9 overall) - assassinate, sharpshooter feat and 2d6 sneak
Warlock 3 (12 overall) - pact blades, lifedrinker invocation +3 Cha/hit
with twin throwing daggers: 3d4+8 (two attacks with main, one off hand), +d8, +2d6 sneak, +3d6 (hunters mark), +10x3 (sharpshooter), +3x3 lifedrinker
I may have goofed up something in the progression, and I havent put this in the spreadsheet yet, but I like it. Pact blade says you need to "use your action" to create the weapon, so it may not be possible to have an endless stream of pact throwing daggers... If not then skip lifedrinker and go Rogue 7 and pick up additional 2d6 sneak
I would be interested to see what a Rogue 15 / Fighter 5 looks like, with the Archery fighting style. At work, so don't have the time to do the analysis myself.
What we really need is for statistics to be a 'core' math course, so more people will be exposed to concepts like variance and the standard deviation that would make it easier to compare high-variance mage-type damage-dealers to more consistent martial-type damage-dealers. While I'm wishing, I'd also like a fire-breathing pony.
@Napolean_Warlord: Not only do you have to use your action to create the pact blade, when you do, any existing pact blade vanishes -- so you can never have twin pact blades (unless there's a feat or build option I'm unaware of that allows it). That makes the build extremely gear-dependent -- you'd need the Fifth Edition equivalent of a returning weapon to be able to make use of all your attacks (use the option where you spend an hour to make an existing weapon into your pact blade).
Personally, I'd probably just go straight Rogue 12 -- you can still take sharpshooter, and get an extra 2d6 sneak and +2 Dex to offset the loss of hunter's mark. Straight TWF Rogue is among the top damage-dealers in the game so far, so a build has to really impress to overcome that advantage.
--
Pauper
Vengeful_Deity wrote:
I'd point out some things:
Most builds should want to max out the number of actions that they can use per round. Extra Attack by 5th level. Having a bonus attack option. Having a consistent reaction option.
Most weapon using builds want Advantage as much as possible. Barbarian 2 is the fastest way to this and if the damage curve can be really broken, then it isn't a problem.
So try this:
Human Barbarian 5 who takes Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master and uses a Glaive or Halberd.
2 swings with Advantage at -5 to hit to do 1d10+13
1 bonus action swing with Advantage at -5 to hit to do 1d4+13(if neither of the 1st two swings drops an opponent/critical hit)
1 reaction if any enemy moves within 2 of him for 1d10+13. As we're wielding a reach weapon and therefore engaged a melee target while 2 away, they usually need to move up to take a swing.
The to-hit chance against AC 15 with Advantage = 58%. Crit = 9.75% for 2d10+13:
18.5*.4825*2+24*.0975*2+15.5*.4825+18*.0975 = 31 average damage per round at 5th. And I'm ignoring the chance of a critical hit making the 1d4 attack into a 1d10 attack, plus pretending the reaction never goes off. The reaction should add in another good 11 damage or so per round and the ~18% chance of a crit prior about another 1 point of damage. So 43 points of damage or so on average per round assuming the reaction goes off.
This is more a proof of concept than an actual build - the ability to Rage conflicts with the ability to take an extra swing and we should want to do enough damage to flatten targets(a creature with Advantage who is dead doesn't get to attack...) - so aiming for Fighter 5/Barbarian 2, then Fighter to at least 12th is probably the way to go for all kinds of reasons for practical play.
ain't worth it to check a Rogue 17/Fighter 3 archer build? Death Strike makes for a pretty heavy nova turn, specially when doubled by action surge.
Also, mind if I ask if a Fighter 17's second action surge in a combat doesn't make it sometimes worth it to take?
Pauper wrote:
Let's calculate an easy ceiling on caster DPR. Let's assume he can cast fireball with a +Stat to damage every round all day long. This is a DPR of like 14 DPR/foe hit (assumming a 50% chance of foe failing dex save). Getting advantage is easy, causing save disadvantage is much harder. Even with some future combo that lets you always cause disadvantage on your spells' save the caster gets 21 DPR / foe hit. Let's just run some numbers on a purely damage focused caster, see the damage per target throughout the day, then compare it to the martial character. The thing I did in 4e DPR king candidates was to simply list the single target DPR with a special note of the area targeted, then arbitrarily bumped it to a position I thought it deserved. Near the end of 4e there were quite a few candidates that had to qualify their DPR with some condition like hitting yourself for 10% of your HP....
Candidate proposal for someone to calculate and claim as their own
Monk 5 / Warlock 1
Hex foe to get +1d6 on each hit, flurry every round for 4 attacks.
Haven't fleshed it out but Fighter 15/Warlock 3 (Pact of the Blade (for Lifedrinker))/Rogue 2 has Sneak Attack, +Str(or Dex) and +Cha to all melee weapon attacks and a good lot of attacks per turn. Not sure how high the DPR could go though.
Here's what I've come up with for the first 10 levels of a wizard
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1upB0byMU0BMWw8xs3OCFT7ceUyANFavUHPFBwP6zjS0/edit?usp=sharing
This is using your spreadsheet for martial people to determine how much damage 2d6 would do. Also using the 50% chance to have a spell go through, or on ranged attack spells using the same method you are using for weapons. Then I'm using a crossbow for some attacks and following your hit %'s based on level except instead of staying at 75% at 4th level due to stat pump it drops to 70% but then back to 75% at 5th due to proficiency.
I've posted two groups of columns. The first group is assuming 3 rounds of combat, the second assuming 4 rounds. Within each group there's Single Target, 2 Monsters, and 3 monsters hit columns.
I've constructed encounters and then divided them by 3 or 4 to determine dpr for that encounter, and then added up the multiple encounters for a day and divided that by three for daily dpr. This is assuming the typical 3 encounters per adventure (based on living campaigns).
Let me know if there's something I'm missing - but these numbers look pretty promising.
Cheers!
rarejon42 wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, especially if this has already been answered, but DPR king is based on the amount of damage dealt to a single target, correct? So AoE, while allowed, only counts how effective it is to one enemy not a sum of all the damage it would do to a dense crowd?
Also, over what period is this damage averaged over? A full-powered mage can do spectacular amounts of damage over one round, and can, through use of other spell-slots, maintain a high damage output for long enough that nearly any enemy would be destroyed if the mage doesn't feel like holding back, but the average DPR will run down as the measured period extends.
If it needs to be indefinitely sustained damage, most mages would be pretty much out of luck, except perhaps a necromancer, should she be able to use undead assistance. While there is obviously a quickly reache limit when it comes to melee attacks, ranged attacks aren't so difficult to accumulate and skeletons can use bows. Necromancer school wizards let their undead add their proficiency bonus to their damage rolls. Let's assume we just use skeletons and they can only use the shortbow in their stat block (not a longbow) and let's ignore the posibility of greater undead or even the caster's personal involvement for a second. Also, I'm going to assume that ALL of the caster's normal daily spells of lvl 3 or higher are used to maintain control of the undead through animate dead, with arcane recovery spells used other ways. I also assume that the caster was able to get all these skeletons.
spell level | number of dayly castings | skeletons retained per casting | total skeletons retained
3rd | 3 | 4 | 12
4th | 3 | 6 | 18
5th | 3 | 8 | 24
6th | 2 | 10 | 20
7th | 2 | 12 | 24
8th | 1 | 14 | 14
9th | 1 | 16 | 16
Total skeletons controlled: 128
Each skeleton has an attack of +4 and does 1d6 + 8 damage with either their scimitar or shortbow (remember, necromancer means add proficiency to damage)
Since they average 11.5 damagae per hit and hit ac 15 50% of the time, each has a DPR of 5.75
5.75*128 = 736 damage per round
Now I can assure you that this many skeletons can fit within 80ft of a target, assuming no obstacles.
Of course, I'm not saying this is practical, and I didn't bother optimising it as much as I could, but there you go 736 DPR sustained until the arrows run out or someone starts killing them.
______
I hope pets weren't explicitly against the rules. If so, sorry.
Edit: Sorry, I forgot to factor in critical hits. I don't feel like updating it, though, the point is made well enough and it's kind of cheaty as it stands.
NN1 wrote:
mellored wrote:
We also use a different model for AC.
The current model is 14 + level/3
This reduces your DPR to 368. Still way beyond any of the martial characters. I agree with you that this is impractical. A couple fireballs destroys your army, while the same fireball wouldn't phase a fighter. We're not here to get in a peeing contest but to find the extremes of damage optimization. DPR king candidates isn't meant for just single target DPR, but all. Thank you for showing us what is possible. One of the requirements of the previous DPR king candidates thread was to keep yourself within a budget cap. Maintaining control wouldn't be so bad, but replacing pawns might get prohibitive, yet legal for this thread. I'll put your candidate in the top position. You've earned it, honestly. I'm not going to shun legal and playable options. Indeed one of my hopes is that this thread can serve as a watchdog for WoTC on unforseen broken/highly bent options that completely outshine others.
On a slightly different topic, I was thinking instead of using a KPR value (kills per round = Monster_HP(level) / DPR) but instead an Combat index (Player_KPR / Monster_KPR), where Monster_KPR is your HP / monster DPR. This would help raise resiliant candidates. A value of 1 would be that both you and the monster could kill eachother on eachother's final blow. A value of 2 would mean you would probably die just after killing your second monster, and so on. This also would favor your necromancer as his "total HP" would be much greater than the fighter. We might require that you spend resources (hit die, spells..) to bring you back to full by the end of the day and still have at least 1/2 of your Hit die left. WoTC seems to have promised that a dedicated healer wouldn't be required. This would require that your necromancer spend spell slots inflicting his minions. We really haven't put any sort of cap on non-renewable resources spent throughout the day. Any sort of area attack on this standard monster would mostly be targeted at nerfing necromancers and other summoners. I'm just tossing ideas out there, exploring the space, hoping that we get a good metric for strikers. If that is biased towards necromancers then we've found a corner of the game that's unbalanced, an optimal point that min/maxers will gravitate towards.
borg285 wrote:
NN1 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
borg285 wrote:
borg285 wrote:
If you're going to include necromancer's 128 skeletons don't forget about the infinite supply of Undead Thrall buffed zombies from Finger of Death kills, all waiting to engage in melee ;)
1eejit wrote:
I just read "of" as "to" >.<
The way we handled all these different qualifiers for DPR was to label each build with different cheese labels. In 4e there were so many different RAW exploits that most sane DMs woulnd't allow, but were RAW. We kept within that. I am going to continue that patern and make a "Army" tag for this and future exploits that find and use an RAW exploit to make an army. There will be many more exploits, and I will not have seperate arenas for each permutation. I will make the spreadsheet to make it easy to flag exploits that won't be legal at your table. It is not my place to judge, but instead to explore the space of RAW.
You do realize that the human barbarian 5 halberd/glaive is a lot higher than 20, right? 58% to-hit against AC15 and automatic 3rd swing and react to anything moving within 2 of it. Pole arm master at level 1, great weapon master at 4.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
So, it looks like the sorcerer can get rediculous numbers if you just chuck all your other spell slots into sorcery points to cast more quickened spells. Is this glass cannon approach not reasonable for this thread though?
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bah, why would you want to hide? :P
Haven't done the maths, is the roll-twice more advantagous than 1d6+dex(+10 if you use sharpshooter)?
borg285 wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
At level 4, a Human Variant Hand Crossbow Fighter 4, with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert does (assuming a starting score of 16 in dex):
2 attacks per round at:
+2 to hit, 1d6+13
For an average damage of 7.6
Leading to a DPR of 15.2.
That's a KPR of 38/75. Or just over 0.5.
At lvl 5, the same Fighter, now a Fighter 5, does:
+3 to hit, 1d6+13 (Average 7.6 if we round monster AC up)
3 times a round, for a DPR of 22.8 and a KPR of roughly 0.65.
EDIT: w00t, out-damages the renowned "Two-Weapon Rogue"! :D (according to the chart at the top of the page)
Yunru wrote:
I don't know, Fighter 15/Rogue 3 gets you 2d6 Sneak Attack and 3 attacks per attack action.
Yunru wrote:
0.7 extra if we're talking about CE+SS. But yeah, that's still definitely better :P
Although I'm still failling to see where the extra attack from the rogue half comes from. But that's probably me just being dumb.
NN1 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Human Barbarian 5
Lv. 1, +5 vs. AC 15
STR 16 (+3), prof +2, Polearm Master bonus attack
.55*(5.5+3) + .05*(11+3)+.55*(2.5+3)+.05*(5+3)
= 8.8
(note: assuming a reaction attack from someone moving adjacent to him, adds 5.38 extra - not a bad assumption given you can pick out the most likely melee target and be 2 away from him)
Lv. 5, +1 vs. AC 16 (w/advantage)
STR 16 (+3), prof +3, -5 for Great Weapon Master, Extra Attack, Reckless Attack
(.4125*(5.5+13) + .0975*(11+13)) * 2
= 19.94
Bonus Attack =
(.4125*(5.5+13) + .0975*(11+13))*.19+(.4125*(2.5+13) + .0975*(5+13))*.81
= 8.50(this is assuming that the target doesn't get dropped by one of the initial 2 attacks - if that happens, an extra +1.42)
So 28.44 assuming no reaction. With reaction, goes up to 38.41.
I'm assuming not rage because raging only adds +2 damage per attack and with a reaction, KPR goes above 1.
This week I'll try to work on polishing up my first 5 posts. I really don't like the formatting tools WotC gave us. I want to be able to paste in some pre-tagged raw text that I use my spreadsheet to make for me, but their editor doesn't seem to like it.
I've been thinking about this Combat Kings idea, using an index that somehow incorperates survivability into it, as well as speed of killing foes, but is not exploitable by cowards. I could make a hard and fast rule of no cowards (invisibility, flying), or make a perfect block of tofu (true seeing, flight, burrow, always following...). That might be the better way around it all.
Everywhere i read about how strong the Vengeance Paladin with vow is in DPR.
I am a little bit confused but since Vow of Enmity is a channel divinity option, you can only use it ONCE on a single target.
So considering u have a 1v1 situation and could take a rest after each encounter it might me strong.
But in the adentures i've played you generally fight 4 and more monsters at the same time and dont get to rest between each new encounter.
Tell me if i'am wrong here, but considering the above, don't u think the "vow" is a little "overhyped"????
I'd rather have reliant and consistent DPR over serveral encounters and more then on 1 single target.
A lightfoot halfling warlock 3, sorcerer 3, eldrich knight 11 (possibly paladin 11), assassin 3.
Convert your spell slots (including warlock spell slots) to power points.
Boost Dex/Cha to 20.
Bonus action = Twinning / Quicken: 4d10+20 eldrich blast. = 42
Action: 3d6+15 shorbow + 2d6 sneak attack = 32.5 (+2 to hit).
+Crits
+Action surge.
mellored wrote:
rarejon42 wrote:
mellored wrote:
borg285 wrote:
danyc wrote:
borg285 wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
anyone here who can answer my question? why u all ignore me?
FaLLeNaNg3L wrote:
The Vow is something you save for the big boss. Which is when you want to be at your best.
That said, the Vengeance Paladin's Oath spells are still pretty good even in fights you don't use Vow. Hunter's Mark, Bane, Hold Person/Monster, Haste ... all of those are very nice.
If I'm weilding a halberd, have the Polearm master feat and the War Caster feat, can I cast a spell for any opportunity attack created from the Polearm master feat? Might help eek a little bit more dmg out of the Eldritch Blast build if it works like that.
Also is there a rule against casting Eldritch blast twice in one turn? Basically twinning it as an action and then quickening it as a bonus?
GladiusLegis wrote:
bwar wrote:
mellored wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
bwar wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
mellored wrote:
bwar wrote:
borg285 wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Since I gave this as an example of optimization in another thread i thought I would add it here. There are a few building block combos here others may want to borrow, its a late game build to level 20. However it shows how to bypass the soft attack cap set by fighters of 5 attacks (4 extra and one dual wield) and then exploit that with spell boost and other class features
CTHULU CANNON (cause what else do you call a eldtich knight warlock glass cannon that blasts things?)
Build features
- 8 in fighter (eldritch archery)
- Access to action surge
- Access to war magic and extra attack combo
- Taking 8 levels for 2 ability boosts
- 4 in warlock (any, I would lean to blade for utility ... and well for flavor an "old ones" patron?)
- With eldritch strike boosts for damage, push and access to spell of Hex
- Taking 4 levels to get to an ability boost
- 4 in sorcerer (any ... but you may want to avoid wild as a backlash could be devastating)
- Getting access to quickened spell cast a few times per day, or if your DM allows twinned to function in this combo as you focus a single target
- Taking 4 levels for ability boost
- 4 in rogue (assassin)
- Access to sneak attack feature @ 2D6
- Access to assassinate feature
- Taking 4 levels for ability boost
Race = Drow or Lightfoot work well stat wise
Feats / Abiltiy Boosts / Array = pump up DEX / CHR to max and grab improved initiative
Basic Combat Round @ 20 (although many of the combo elements are functional earlier)
- Action = cantrip for 4 attacks of eldritch strike @ +11 hit for 1D10+5 each (this cantrip is unique in that it makes you do 4 seperate attacks instead of just adding a damage die per level up)
- Bonus = war magic allows ranged weapon attack with bonus to hit from fighter style @ +13 hit for 1D8+5
- Situational = +2D6 of sneak attack that can proc freely off your ranged weapon attack
- Situational = critical hit surprise bonuses and advantage boosts from assassin feature
Nova Round @ 20 with suprise (you are a DEX char, levels in rogue, trained in the skill, and with invisibility spells ... you can make that happen right?)
- Bonus action = cast Hex on victim (this grants damage bonus per each attack)
- Standard action = Eldritch Blast
- Fighter Action Surge Action = Eldritch Blast
- Fighter Action Surge bonus action = Quickend Spell Cast Eldritch Blast
- Situational = Assassin class feature where all attacks are critical hits in suprise round and made with advantage as they have not hit yet ...
- Damage aftermath? 12D10+60 for eldritch strike; +12D6 for Hex = 168 average damage with and if all the hits land then the dice (but not bonuses) get an additional roll for 12D10 + 12D6 more to boost it up to an average of 276 damage
This cannon can fire a few times per day depending on rests to recharge various features. In addtion if this is not on an BBEG type fight, the HEX spell will jump to new targets allowing you to do the basic combat round actions +5D6 consitently for an entire encounter which should put you at the upper end of party DPS
Note: If you hold out to round 2 to unleash you can take this up to 13 attacks in a round (action = cantrip (4) + bonus war magic ranged (1) + surge cantrip (4) + surge bonus quickened cantrip (4)) But the damage doenst pay off as well even though its fun to shot that many times and the ranged weapon allows your sneak attack damage back into the mix
Shadewyn wrote:
The text in the PHB suggests bonus action as well though "and bonus action as applicable"
Also not mentioning HEX is a massive ammount of missed damage for eldritch blast locks, and without going to 4 in the classes the lack of ability boosts really hurts you
Pauper wrote:
EasyT wrote:
Also if you're playing ranged, there's a high chance that you're going to want Spell Sniper or Sharpshooter over a +2 to your primary stat, depending on encounter layouts.
Hello,
Do we have a standardized Dex / Con save for monsters?
If we go with monsters at the following AC's:
1: 14
5: 15
10: 17
15: 19
20: 20
which is really close to -> 13+(1/3)+(monster level/3)
Are the save bonuses like this:
2+(monster level/4)
NN1 wrote:
i am confused a little, you get the ability score bonus when your character level hits 4, not when your class lvl hits 4, at leasts thats how it reads to me, but some posts are implying that you need to hit lvl 4 in a class to get the ability bumps. am i wrong, confused, or right?
I believe you are wrong. In 5E, the ability score boosts/feat slots are class level dependent.
silentdante wrote:
wow i guess that changes everything, i wanted to go fighter/rogue, and not sure if missing a bump/feat is worth 11/9, though thats only 1 bump missed.... thanks guys
I think this Evoker build puts out some solid numbers.
What do you think?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13SLdIzocFV7OoLCDJ1BJliccLB2NqzrZDtbZdeMqgqs/edit?usp=sharing
Ok, as promissed I updated my first 5 posts. Please provide feedback. Areas that I feel are weakest are how much detail was needed/done for the sample character. I felt it was too much for each candidate. Perhaps I should split that off and make a dedicated section at the end of post 4 for DPR calculation techniques and accepted ways of dealing with certain DPR related things (Halfling reroll, Advantage, Disadvantage, Damage reduction, Multiple enemies...).
Thoughts?
Also please remember that the Standard Day, Standard BBEG, and monster model are still under construction. I feel there hasn't been enough discussion on CI vs. KPR vs. DPR, and how to handle invisibility and armies.
I think that invisibity can be handled with giving the BBEG some true sight. The army can be handled by putting the BBEG first, and giving him AoE, as any BBEG would have.
rarejon42 wrote:
Not DPR, but i figured i'd put my burst king here.
Assassins 3 (sneak attack, auto-crits) / paladin 5 (smite, dex, multi-attack) / battlemaster 3 (TWF style, action surge, battlemaster dice). Halfling for Dex and rerolls.
((1d6 raiper +2d8 smite) * 5 attacks + 4d8 battlemaster dice + 2d6 sneak attack) * 2 crits + 5*4 dex.
= 200 damage (assuming everything hits, you have advantage, lucky, and possibly bless).
CL 8.
akschmid wrote:
I'd like to request someone to take one of their candidates and run them through the 2 sets of encounters I outlined in my first post (BBEG then Fantastic Four) and report on what was good, too hard, liked, disliked... I really need a second opinion other than mine on if this is a good way of leveling the playing field between casters/multi-targets and single-target hitters.
borg285 wrote:
rarejon42 wrote:
borg285 wrote:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rujG23yXODss4vusuOdsFo6qPXH7cW0iXnoDxnTe8Ms/edit?usp=sharing
Here you are with F4 and BBEG
"Dwarf on an Elephant"
Submission for Levels: 1, 6, and 12
Mountain Dwarf
Fighter (1), Paladin (1-19) [Vengeance]
Two Weapon Fighting
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lvl 1: Fighter (1)
Str:16, Short Swords
Target AC: 14 (14+Lvl/3)
To Hit: 1 - 0.05*(14-3-2-1) = 0.6
Average Dmg: 2d6+6 --> (3.5+3.5+6) = 13
DPR: 0.6 * 13 * 1.05 = 8.19
KPR: 2.0475
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lvl 6: Fighter (1), Paladin (5)
Str: 16, Longswords
Spells: Divine Favor
Feats: Dual Wielder
Features: Vow of Enmity, Extra Attack
Target AC: 16 (14+Lvl/3)
To Hit: 1 - 0.5*(16-3-3-1) = 0.55
To Hit (Adv.): 1 - (1-0.55)^2 = 0.7975
Average Dmg: (3d8 + 3d4 + 4*3) --> (3*4.5 + 3*2.5 + 3*3) = 30
DPR: 0.7975 * 30 * 1.05 = 25.12125
KPR: 0.6978125
Target AC: 14 (12+Lvl/3)
To Hit: 1 - 0.5*(14-3-3-1) = 0.65
To Hit (Adv.): 1 - (1-0.65)^2 = 0.8775
Average Dmg: (3d8 + 3d4 + 4*3) --> (3*4.5 + 3*2.5 + 3*3) = 30
DPR: 0.7975 * 30 * 1.05 = 27.64125
KPR: 0.7678125
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lvl 12: Fighter (1), Paladin (11)
Str: 18, Lances
Spells: Divine Favor, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Find Mount
Feats: Dual Wielder, Mounted Combatant
Features: Vow of Enmity, Extra Attack, Improved Divine Smite
At this level, this character uses the "Find Mount" spell to summon a Celestial Elephant
(Elephant listed as usable mount on pg 157, though no creature stats are given in this book) -- Previous editions listed Elephants as Huge creatures, taking up a grid space of 3x3. My Dwarf will sit in the center square, atop his elephant mount, and never be within 5 feat of an enemy (which would impose disadvantage while using lances).
Additionally, this mount (combined with the Mounted Combatant Feat) gives another method for obtaining advantage in addition to Vow of Enmity
Target AC: 18 (14+Lvl/3)
To Hit: 1 - 0.5*(18-4-4-2-1) = 0.65
To Hit (Adv.): 1 - (1-0.65)^2 = 0.8775
Average Dmg: (3d12 + 3d8 + 6d4 + (3*5)) --> (3*6.5 + 3*4.5 + 6*2.5 + 3*5) = 63
DPR: 0.84 * 63 * 1.05 = 58.046625
KPR: 0.8292375
Target AC: 16 (12+Lvl/3)
To Hit: 1 - 0.5*(16-4-4-2-1) = 0.75
To Hit (Adv.): 1 - (1-0.75)^2 = 0.9375
Average Dmg: (3d12 + 3d8 + 6d4 + (3*5)) --> (3*6.5 + 3*4.5 + 6*2.5 + 3*5) = 63
DPR: 0.84 * 63 * 1.05 = 62.015625
KPR: 0.8859375
I may expand this build and submit for lvl 17 and 20 in the future.
Edit Notes: I fixed the "one bonus action per turn" errors.
Any other glaring issues?
You only get one bonus action per round(/turn), so you can only attack once with your off hand.
TheLastDunedain wrote:
Oh wow -- yep! only one per round.
PHB pg 189
I will modify my submission to follow the rules -- looks like it still might be decent DPR.
Edit: Please see original Post - errors have been fixed.
Edit2: No, JK. my math's way off
Edit3: Now my math is ok
TheLastDunedain wrote:
borg285 wrote:
I've been thinking about a Fighter 15/Rogue 5. Champion/Assassin. Max out Dex, take Alert and you've a +13 to Initiative, Advantage on attacks against any creature that's yet to act, auto-crit if they're surprised, and 18-20 Crit range. Assuming you Action Surge that's 6 attacks at Advantage with a 27.75% chance of a crit per hit. And that'd still leave your Bonus Action free to hide/get in another shot.
EDIT: I also dislike how the Lvl 1 Human Variant Fighter with Crossbow Expert wielding a Hand Crossbow still hasn't been listed despite out-damaging anything on that list. Might at 6 too considering Sharpshooter adds more delicious static mods to it.
Level 1 Wizard: Evoker
DPR
10.76
Crossbow, Magic Missile, Burning Hands
Level 6 Wizard: Evoker
DPR
32.03
Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Fireball, Hasted Fighter Concentration
Level 12 Wizard: Evoker
DPR
80.47
Magic Missile, Fireball, Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning, Conjure Elemental Concentration
Level 17 Wizard: Evoker
DPR
134.43
Magic Missile, Fireball, Cone of Cold, Time Stop, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Conjure Elemental Concentration
Level 20 Wizard: Evoker
DPR
139.43
Magic Missile, Fireball, Cone of Cold, Time Stop, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Conjure Elemental Concentration
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rujG23yXODss4vusuOdsFo6qPXH7cW0iXnoDxnTe8Ms/edit#gid=0
Yunru wrote:
TheLastDunedain wrote:
One quick question: How does one calculate the effect of Sneak Attack damage or Precision Attack's accuracy buff?
Also, Advantage and Disadvantage can be easily summarised. If you have Advantage, your chance of rolling X or less is X^2. Likewise, if you have Disadvantage, your chance of rolling X or more is X^2.
So I totally nicked the example and modified it to fit a lvl 1 Human Varaint Fighter with Crossbow Expert (16 Str, 16 Con, W/E for the rest, Studded Armour, a Shield and a Hand Crossbow):
Sapphire (Fighter 1)
Dex 16
Con: 16
AC: 17
HP: 13
HD: 1d10
Saving throws: Str, Con
Attack: +7 = +2(Prof) +3(Dex) +3(Archery Style)
Damage(Hand Crossbow): 1d6+3
FF:
To Hit: .8
Damage Per Round: 2*((0.8*6.5)+(0.05*3.5))=5.2+0.175=2*5.375=10.75
KPR: 10.75(DPR)/4(HP) = 2.6875
To Be Hit: 0.3
FF DPR: (.3*(3))*1.05 = 0.945
Combat sequence:
R1: I kill Dee and Dum, Archers atttack
R2: I kill Archers
HP: 13 - (2)* 0.945 = 11.11
Short rest: 11.11 + anything, heck Con mod does it alone= 13
BBEG:
To Hit: 0.7
DPR: 2*((0.7*6.5)+(0.05*3.5))=4.55+0.175=2*4.725=9.45
KPR: 9.45/16 = 0.590625 KPR
To Be Hit: 1-.05*(17-3-1) = 0.35
BBEG DPR: (.35*3)*1.05 = 1.1025
BBEG KPR: 1.1025 / 13 (my max HP) = 0.0848076923076923076923
// Here I add in combat index
Combat Index = 0.590625 / (1.1025/13) = 6.9642857 CI <- Meaning I kill him 2.4 times as fast as he kills me
Duration: 2 rounds
HP: 13(current HP) - 2*1.1025 = 10.795
Summary:
Combat Duration: 4 rounds
CI vs. FF: Under construction
CI vs. BBEG: ~7.0
I would also like to point out that your combat scenario doesn't work. At lvl 6 Tweedle Dee, Tweedle Dum and the two Archers eviserate anything sent at them by its lonesome.
EDIT: Or I may be failing to account for Extra Attack >.<
So here's Lvl 6 (not accounting for Precision Attack (which'd obviously increase the DPR)):
Sapphire (Fighter 6)
Dex 18
Con: 16
AC: 18
HP: 58
HD: 6d10
Saving throws: Str, Con
Attack: +4 = +3(Prof) +4(Dex) +3(Archery Style) -5(Sharpshooter)
Damage(Hand Crossbow): 1d6+14
FF:
To Hit: .55
Damage Per Round: 3*((0.55*17.5)+(0.05*3.5))=3*(9.625+0.175)=3*9.8=29.4
KPR: 29.4(DPR)/34(HP) = 0.8647...
To Be Hit: 0.35
FF DPR: (.35*(12))*1.05 = 4.41
Combat sequence:
R1: I attack Dee, Dee and Dum atttack(2), Archers atttack(2)
R2: I kill Dee, attack Dum, Dum(1) and Archers atttack(2)
R3: I kill Dum, attack Archer 1, Archers attack(2)
R4: I kill Archer 1, attack Archer 2, Archers attack (1)
R5: I kill Archer 2.
HP: 58 - (2+2+1+2+2+1)* 4.41 = 58 - 44.1 = 13.9
Short rest: 13.9 + 5d10+15= 56.4
BBEG:
To Hit: 0.45
DPR: 3*((0.45*17.5)+(0.05*3.5))=3*(7.875+0.175)=3*8.05=24.15
KPR: 24.15/46 = 0.525 KPR
To Be Hit: 1-.05*(17-4-2) = 0.45
BBEG DPR: (.45*18)*1.05 = 8.505
BBEG KPR: 8.505 / 58 (my max HP) = 0.146637931...
// Here I add in combat index
Combat Index = 0.525 / (8.505/58) = 3.5802469... CI
Duration: 2 rounds
HP: 56.4(current HP) - 1*8.505 = 47.895
Summary:
Combat Duration: 7 rounds
CI vs. FF: Under construction
CI vs. BBEG: ~3.58
Could possibly be made tougher by taking Tough instead of a +2 Dex, but eh.
EDIT: Here's a link, you're after Luna. Damage is the average damage a non-critical hit does.
Halfling Fiendish Warlock 17/dragon sorcerer 3.
20 Cha, 20 dex, agonizing blast, forsight.
Convert warlock spells into spell points (5*4 = 20), and cast quickened (/2) eldrich blast + eldrich blast. (= 10 times per short rest).
8d10+40 = 84
= 11 vs 20, advatage
= 0.7975 hit rate.
= 66.99
+ 84 * 0.0975 (crit) = 4.29
= 71.28
71.28 / 130 = 0.548 KPR vs BBEG
You kill BBEG in 2 turns.
11 vs 18, advantage
84 * 0.8775 hit rate
= 73.71
+ 4.29 (crit)
= 78 DPR
78 / 118 = 0.66 KPR vs FF
* 4 targets = 6.0512820512820512820512820512821 (since each shot is individual, there's not alot of overkill)
Add hurl though hell, and you can win in 6 rounds.
For defense, you have 13 + 5 dex = 18 AC, and attackers have disavatage, and can cast false life until you have 8 THP.
R1:
You heavily wound BBEG, he then hit's you back for.
= 0.36 to hit for BBEG.
= 21.6 DPR (-8 THP = 13.6)
You then kill him in round 2 and 22 THP.
R1: You use hurl though hell and kill 1 guy, and slightly damage a second.
You then gain 22 THP, and they hit you back for..
.25 to hit for FF
= 10 DPR * 3 = 30 (- 22 THP = 8, 21.6 total)
R2: You then severly wound a second guy.
They hit you back for 30 (51.6 total)
R3: You kill the second guy, gain 22 THP, and wound the third.
They hit you back for 20 (51.6, 2 THP left)
R4: You kill the third guy, gain 22 THP, and barely wound the forth.
He hit's you back for 10 (51.6, 12 THP)
R5: You severly wound the 4th guy.
He hit's you back for 10 (51.6, 2 THP)
R6: You finish off the 4th guy.
51.6 damage taken for the day.
I did not include lucky, mainly because it will be alot of math without adding much, since you already have advantage.
You also have 1 extra feat. Defensive dualist, or inspiring leader could cut down on the damage you take.
You also have slots for hellish rebuke or shield, or simply attempt a heighted dominate monster.
If you can pre-buff, your concentraion is still open. And you could summon a fey to help.
mellored wrote:
Thank you all for running through the encounter. I feel that at higher levels we will need to be adding true sight, and possibly something that limits the action economy somehow (lazer attack bestows frightened?).
It seems that ranged builds, AoE builds, and Single target builds can get to all foes in a timely manner so no position tracking is necessary, good. The difficulty came when you needed to see how many rounds it took. Perhaps we can make a template google spreadsheet that helps on that front. It would need to be modified for cases like the warlock and hex/hunter's mark (can't feasably apply it to 2 foes you kill in same round). Still having a simple template you plug your stats/DPR into and it simulates both encounters would be helpful. The main purpose was to put single target and AoE on the same playing field, as well as incorperating the candidates defenses/HP into the output.
I still don't feel like I've hit the nail on the head with reporting the total number of rounds. I feel lke FF >> BBEG. BBEG's attacks are weak sauce. BBEG doesn't have penetration (has common attacks that are easy ways for monsters to attack you where it hurts), as well as threatening features that a striker would need to deal with (bestows disadvantage on some condition).
Do you feel the lethality bar on FF should be kept as a golden standard, or lightened up? I wish I had more study in the mechanics so I could design the FF to be scaled for a single PC.
TheLastDunedain wrote:
borg285 wrote:
Would someone please explain how you are calculating the +to hit for the monsters and the damage values for the monsters?
I'm obviously missing something that the two of you understand, but the original post makes no sense to me in that regard.
Monster Chance to hit:
A + (player level * B)
Monster Damage:
C + (player level * D)
Is it something like this?
To hit = 4+level/3
Damage = 3 * level
Though i agree that it could be a little cleaner.
I've been playing around with a couple of Monk builds. This is a Monk 4/Warlock 4/Rogue 1 (so Level 9)
He has quite a few limited use abilities so the DPR (and KPR) vary by round. He has an 80% chance of knocking an enemy down with a martial arts attack so I have split attacks subsequent to that 0.8*DPR with Advantage:0.2*DPR without advantage.
He has Thirsting blade for an extra attack and uses Ki for Flurry til he runs out. SA is 1d6 and applied on once each round 80% of the time (i.e. when he has advantage)
I've made the assumption that I cast hex prior to the encounter (cause why wouldn't I?) and that I have Mage Armour up formt he get go (its an At Will that lasts 8 hours) as well as Armor of Agathys. After all I can just rest whenever my buffs run out then cast em again 
. If you wonder what would happen if he had to cast Hex and Agathys, just extend the encounter by 1 round. An enemy take the AoA dmage on Round 1, but nothing else.
Encounter vs FF
Round 1:
The Rogue Monklock (Hp 183, THP10) attacks for 57 DPR, split over 4 attacks and 1 auto hit. This kills FF1 and wounds FF2
Our hero then takes 42 Damage from 2 arrows and a punch
Round 2:
This time the Rogue Moncklock (Hp 141) deals 47 DPR split across 4 attacks, killing FF2 then moving to engage FF3 in melee
14 Damage is taken from an arrow
Round 3
FF3 is pummelled for 47 DPR, but is still standing after the Rogue Monklock (Hp 127) attack
14 Damage is taken from an arrow
Round 4
FF3 is ended and 47 DPR is dealt across 4 attacks, wounding FF4 who is now in melee our Heore has 113 Hp remaining
Round 5
FF4 is easily dispatched
I'll do the BBEG later. I averaged the CI across 6 rounds of combat to come up with a CI of 7.26 for this encounter.
mellored wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
I love how, for the purpose of DPR calculations, a critical is exactly the same as +1 accuracy.
Yunru wrote:
True. I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that. Maybe I was calculating damage dice independent from modifiers? *shrugs*
Yunru wrote:
Warlock 2/EK 7/ rogue 11
Halfing (cause, it's always halfling), 20 Dex, 20 Cha.
Eldrich Blast 4d10+20
Bonus action sneak attack 1d8+6d6+5
= 72.5 * 0.55 = 39.875 DPR.
Not as good as i hoped.
mellored wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
mellored wrote:
Just for proof of concept, doesn't the Warlock 9 Necormancer 6 beat ... well.. everything, assuming the DPR of a zombie is like... 1?
Meaning:
Undead Thralls: At 6th level, you add the animate dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse
or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate. Whenever you create an undead using a necromancyspell, it has additional benefits:
• The creature’s hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your w izard level.
• The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
At sixth level, you have 3 spell slots for 3rd level spells as a Wizard = 6 zombies.
At eleventh level, you have 3 spell slots as a Warlock PER SHORT REST, and those slots are 5th level. You can take 24 short rests per day. 24X6X3=432.
So at the start of the next day, you have 438 zombies. You can then use the next days spell slots to steadily reassert control over them (you can control 8 per casting,so it really only takes 18 hours to re-assert control over the whole lot). Alternatively, every 4 times you make a zombie, you can spend 3 castings controlling.
So roughly 250 zombies per day without having to do some every other day nonsense.
JohnnyBlaise wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
If we are assuming a short rest each fight (refresh slots and channel divinity), a dark room and maintaining concentration during a short rest (constant hex)
Paladin 4 = cha to hit
Warlock 2 = Pact weapon and devils sight
Feats: Heavy Weapon Expert, Polearm Master
To Hit: 3 cha +3 prof +3 str -5 feat = +3
Damage: 2d10(wpn) 1d4 (bonus wpn)+30 [feat]+9 [stat]+3d6 [hex]+6d8 [smite] = average 90 dpr
If it was level 7, you could genereate your own darkness. And I think you need to take smite out in all likelihood, since you wont be spamming that (so we are down to 63). Im obviously not doing the to hit math, but I think even adjusting for that, this is pretty solid.
mellored wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
mellored wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
JohnnyBlaise wrote:
How often are short rest abilities being allowed for purposes of calculating DPR?
Lvl 5/6 variant human great weapon barbarian using greatsword with great weapon master feat
Lvl 5: +2 vs 16ac
STR 18 (+4), prof +3, rage damage +2, Extra Attack, Reckless Attack, Great Weapon Master Bonus attack on crit, Great Weapon Master -5/+10
Base Chance to hit: 35%
Base Chance to crit: 5%
Base chance to hit without crit: 30%
Chance to crit with advantage: 9.75%
Chance to hit or crit with advantage: 57.75%
Chance to hit but not crit with advantage: 48%
Chance to crit with at least one of the 2 regular attacks: 18.55%
Non Crit DPR + Crit DPR
.48*(7+6+10) + .0975*(14+6+10) = 13.965 per attack
DPR of Bonus action attack of Great Weapon Master Feat
.1855*(.48*(7+6+10) + .0975*(14+6+10)) = 2.632
Total DPR
13.965*2 + 2.632 = 30.562
Lvl 5/6 variant human ranger using hand crossbow with hand crossbow expertise and sharpshooter
Lvl 5: +3 vs 16ac
Dex (+3), prof +3, Extra Attack, Crossbow Expertise Bonus Action Attack, Sharpshooter -5/+10, Archery +2, Hunters Quarry spell +1d6, Collosus Slayer +1d8
Base Chance to hit: 40%
Base Chance to crit: 5%
Base chance to hit without crit: 35%
Non Crit DPR + Crit DPR
.35*(3.5 + 3.5 + 3 + 10) + .05*(7+7+3 + 10)= 8.35 per attack
DPR of 1d8 extra damage from Collosus Slayer (Assuming it's always applied when it first can be applied)
Crit with First attack + Hit with first attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Crit with 2nd attack + Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack + Hit with 3rd attack))=
Crit With First attack + Hit with frist attack + (Miss with first attack)*Crit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack) + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Hit with 3rd attack) =
9*.05 + 4.5*.35 + .6*.05*9 + .6*.35*4.5 + .6*.6*.05*9 + .6*.6*.35*4.5 = 3.969
Total DPR
8.35*3 + 3.969 = 29.019
*Note: Advantage was not used or required for this calculation
Lvl 6 variant human multiclass ranger5/rogue1 using hand crossbow with hand crossbow expertise and sharpshooter
Lvl 5: +3 vs 16ac
Dex (+3), prof +3, Extra Attack, Crossbow Expertise Bonus Action Attack, Sharpshooter -5/+10, Archery +2, Hunters Quarry spell +1d6, Collosus Slayer +1d8, Sneak Attack 1d6, multiclass
Base Chance to hit: 40%
Base Chance to crit: 5%
Base chance to hit without crit: 35%
Non Crit DPR + Crit DPR
.35*(3.5 + 3.5 + 3 + 10) + .05*(7+7+3 + 10)= 8.35 per attack
DPR of 1d8 extra damage from Collosus Slayer (Assuming it's always applied when it first can be applied)
Crit with First attack + Hit with first attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Crit with 2nd attack + Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack + Hit with 3rd attack))=
Crit With First attack + Hit with frist attack + (Miss with first attack)*Crit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack) + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Hit with 3rd attack) =
9*.05 + 4.5*.35 + .6*.05*9 + .6*.35*4.5 + .6*.6*.05*9 + .6*.6*.35*4.5 = 3.969
DPR of 1d6 extra damage from Sneak Attack (Assuming it's always applied when it first can be applied)
Crit with First attack + Hit with first attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Crit with 2nd attack + Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack + Hit with 3rd attack))=
Crit With First attack + Hit with frist attack + (Miss with first attack)*Crit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack) + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Hit with 3rd attack) =
7*.05 + 3.5*.35 + .6*.05*7 + .6*.35*3.5 + .6*.6*.05*7 + .6*.6*.35*3.5 = 3.087
Total DPR
8.35*3 + 3.969 + 3.087 = 32.106
*Note: Advantage was not used or required for this calculation
***Also I believe this character tops the current LVL 6 charts.
Lvl 12 variant human multiclass ranger5/paladin3/rogue4 using hand crossbow with hand crossbow expertise and sharpshooter
Lvl 5: +5 vs 17ac (with advantage)
Dex (+4), prof +4, Extra Attack, Crossbow Expertise Bonus Action Attack, Sharpshooter -5/+10, Archery +2, Hunters Quarry spell +1d6, Collosus Slayer +1d8, Sneak Attack 2d6, vow of enmity, multiclass, advantage
Base Chance to hit: 45%
Base Chance to crit: 5%
Base chance to hit without crit: 40%
Chance to crit with advantage: 9.75%
Chance to hit or crit with advantage: 69.75%
Chance to hit but not crit with advantage: 60%
Non Crit DPR + Crit DPR
.60*(3.5 + 3.5 + 4 + 10) + .0975*(7+7+4 + 10)= 15.33 per attack
DPR of 1d8 extra damage from Collosus Slayer (Assuming it's always applied when it first can be applied)
Crit with First attack + Hit with first attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Crit with 2nd attack + Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack + Hit with 3rd attack))=
Crit With First attack + Hit with frist attack + (Miss with first attack)*Crit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack) + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Hit with 3rd attack) =
9*.0975 + 4.5*.6 + .3025*.0975*9 + .3025*.6*4.5 + .3025*.3025*.0975*9 + .3025*.3025*.6*4.5 = 4.987
DPR of 2d6 extra damage from Sneak Attack (Assuming it's always applied when it first can be applied)
Crit with First attack + Hit with first attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Crit with 2nd attack + Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack + Hit with 3rd attack))=
Crit With First attack + Hit with frist attack + (Miss with first attack)*Crit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*Hit with 2nd attack + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Crit with 3rd attack) + (Miss with first attack)*(Miss with 2nd attack)*(Hit with 3rd attack) =
14*.0975 + 7*.6 + .3025*.0975*14 + .3025*.6*7 + .3025*.3025*.0975*14 + .3025*.3025*.6*7 = 7.7576
Total DPR
15.33*3 + 4.987 + 7.7576 = 58.7346
***Build should make 2nd on the lvl 12 damage charts
Maybe Tsunami is more effective as "Undead Swarm Killer".
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but I noticed there are still, "Under Construction," sections in the main body of this guide. After working out the math, I think I've come up with an equation to solve for DPR given any set of variables. The equation breaks at either end of the accuracy curve (i.e., if your to-hit bonus is greater than or equal to the monster's AC, or 20 less than the monster's AC), and does not account for having disadvantage, but it otherwise seems to work. I created an Excel spread sheet to test things out, and I'm pleased with the results.
Here's the breakdown:
DPR = AverageDamageRoll * [3 - ((20 + TargetAC -ToHitBonus - CritOn) / 20)^Advantage - 2 * ((CritOn - 1) / 20))^Advantage] + StaticDamage * [1 - ((TargetAC - ToHitBonus - 1) / 20)^Advantage]
CritOn is equal to the number needed to be rolled on the d20 to get a critical hit; and, Advantage is either equal to 1 or 2, depending on if you don't have it or do. In my spread sheet, I also threw in a column to account for how many attacks per round I was making. I hope this is beneficial to folks, and not a repost of information someone far smarter than me already shared.
Hello all. Sorry for being away for so long. My excuses are like my armpits, they stink.
I'll try to persist all the candidates so far into the spreadsheet (which anyone can do, btw).
Regarding the zombie thing, To account for the vulnerability that the necromancer has to losing his army, would having the combat index (your KPR / BBEG KPR) account for your total HP help mitigate the OPness of the necromancer. For example, your KPR will be amazing against the fantastic 4, but against the BBEG (who we would need to allow to go first (not a bad assumption either)), his area attack would reduce your army HP a fair bit. This total damage / your total HP (zombies included) might be quite large. I don't think that any BBEG would get more than 1 round vs. you, but it could be enough to wipe out your entire army in the first round. THis isn't far fetched as it would be dumb to take your army against a dragon with his area attacks. Your combat index would represent this vulnerability.
Thoughts?
Level 12 bard, 20 Cha, warcaster, .
Animate objects
10d4+40 damage = 62 +8 to hit (50%)
32 + 10d4 * 0.05 = 33.25
dissonant whispers (DC 17 vs +2?? Wis = 75%)
3d6 + OA's from your objects 33.25 + viscous mockery (3d4 * .75= 5.625) = 49.375
* .75 = 37.03125
+ 5.25 * .25 = 1.3125
= 38.34375
= 71.59375 DPR.
1.02 KPR
You could potentially add OA with scorching ray or something, but that might burn too many spell slots.
mellored wrote:
If using spells that have a save other than DEX, is it suggested to use the same guideline in the F4 for the DEX saves?
I hope this hasn't been asked already... but how does a human shilelagh (sp) build do? Would do first 5 levels in paladin, then 3 in warlock, then rest into paladin. Take polearm and resilient(cons) as feats, then end up with 16 str (plate), 10 dex, 14 stam, 10 int, 10 wis, 20 Cha(shilelagh + spells). Would take devil sight and agonizing blast for invocations, eldrich blast, mage hand, shillelagh, vicious mockery, and guidance as cantrips (pact of tome), Fiend for patron, and for warlock spells take hex, arms of hadar, arms of agathys, Darkness. Would auto for 3d8 plus improved smite plus would get attacks of opp on people coming to melee on me. Would also only need one 20 due to shilelagh build and use shield, plate, and dueling for an extra +2 dmg.
Chaca wrote:
isnt it even better tho? Because 5(cha) +6(prof) +2(duel) for each of the attack rolls? Wouldn't that be that much for both attacks, the butt attack, and improved smite? Seems like a lot unless i'm off. And shilelagh lasts 10 rounds (1 min) so that round you could just do eldritch blast and cast shil while getting to the mob since only have 30 speed anyway.... Oh and cant forget you get the utility of a legitimate long range cantrip that adds cha bonus as well. And yes, I do give up 1 of 2 lvl 5 spell slots if I go 17 vs 20.
Also, did you mean the straight pallie with 2H weapon has slightly more dmg or the warlock3/pal17?
Also, should i take thorn wip instead of guidance? Or any other cantrips worthwhile? Obviously I have to take shilelagh, and mockery seems pretty awesome, but maybe get rid of guidance? Im sure the other spells casters can cover it.
L16 monk, L4 ranger. DEX & WIS 20. 6 (prof) + 5 (DEX) on attack roll.
Attack action gives 2 attacks vs main target (with benefit of hunters mark), one against second target (no hunters mark). Bonus attack gives another attack vs main target, or two if burning ki.
D8(unarmed)+5(DEX)+2(duellist)+d6(hunters mark) = 15 D8(unarmed)+5(DEX)+2(duellist) = 11.5
Total vs single target (no flurry of blows) = 3x15x0.6 = 27
Total vs multiple targets (no flurry of blows) = 3x15+11.5x0.6 = 33.9
Total vs single target (with flurry of blows) = 4x15x0.6 = 36
Total vs multiple target (with flurry of blows) = 4x15+11.5x0.6 = 42.9
Edit: For extra dpr, say "AC is for wusses", drop DEX to 3rd stat, make STR primary at 20, and drop a level of monk for a level of barbarian and rage for and extra +2 damage per attack, taking the total (with flurry of blows and horde breaker) to 48.9
Since we no longer care about AC, we could then take a half-orc, partly for an extra d8 damage on a critical, mainly because who doesn't want to play a half-orc MMA fighter.
A rather pedestrian Ranger/Rogue 5/15 using a rapier with Duellist fighting style and Sentinel feat. AC 19 with studded leather +5 Dexterity +2 Shield. It's not sexy but it frees up your bonus action vice two weapon fighting. Sentinel allows a reaction (and possible second sneak attack) or use the reaction for defense, whatever is most appropriate. The Ranger uses Hunter archetype and takes Colossus Strike and uses Hunter's Mark when possible. The Rogue uses Assassin archetype. The Rogue archetype doesn't affect the typical damage done but it's taken because this build focusses on single target damage, hence the CS and HM of the Ranger.
The damage at the first 8 levels depends on how you divide your classes up. I went Rogue for the first 4 levels to hit my feat and because we had no Rogue in the party and Expertise in Stealth was more important than dpr. From levels 5-8 a Ranger/Rogue lags behind a straight rogue because of the lack of increased sneak attack damage and no second attack but damage increases substantially at level 9.
My particular build is a variant human so I got Sentinel at level 1, although given I was a Rogue I didn't actually get into melee that often. If you concentrate purely on damage and hit Dexterity 20 as fast as possible, you achieve 20 Dexterity at level 8.
The damage calculations assume the following - 50% hit rate, no advantage on attack, Hunter's Mark and Colossus Strike active, rapier wielded, Sentinel used on reaction.
Level Damage per round
1 11.8
5 16.65
10 45.56
15 55.19
20 69.63
Average damage on a hit for:
Level Sneak Attack non-Sneak Attack
1 11 7.5
5 15.5 8.5
10 30 19.5
15 37 19.5
20 47.5 19.5
Average damage on a critical hit for:
Level Sneak Attack non-Sneak Attack
1 19 12
5 27 13
10 53 32
15 67 32
20 88 32
The Hunter's Mark and Colossus Strike, which you won't get all the time, obviously, act more or less like having 2 extra sneak attack dice just that one of them is a d8. It's nice, especially considering you will be down 2 or 3 sneak attack dice versus a single-class Rogue. You do miss out on higher level Rogue abilities and one feat, but you hopefully enjoy the Ranger benefits enough not to bother you. The Ranger additions are almost entirely damage related so keep that in mind. You get a very small selection of Ranger spells and the spells I will choose are - Hunter's Mark, Fog Cloud, Darkvision (because I'm a human), and Pass Without Trace.
The upside is that only a small part of your damage is dependent on limited use skills - the Hunter's Mark. As long as you have HP, you are good to go. Two attacks means you are more likely to get a Sneak attack in. The two attacks don't use your Bonus Action so it's always free from level 2-20 for Cunning Action. Your Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are delayed 5 levels (boo!!!) but you at least can use Sentinel on your Reaction. When you do get Uncanny Dodge, you have two powerful choices on your Reaction. As long as the creature you are engaging in melee attacks something, you are highly likely to get to do one of the two options that round.
How do you manage the ability scores to MC all of those classes? It's possible, I'm just wondering what your stat arrangement is. What are the damage averages over the 20 levels? What feats do you have? What assumptions are you making that allows you to do all that damage? Does the damage depend on limited use abilities?
If you aren't going to post your evidence or a link to the evidence (maybe a post number) I'm not going to take your word for it.
Yes, it's saveable, and it only does d6 damage, but it give you advantage and guarantees sneak attack. Just a thought.
guachi wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Human Variant (Crossbow Expert):
16 Dex, 16 Con, 13 Cha, 10, 10, 8.
Level 1: Fighter
Level 2: Sorcerer
Level 3-8: Fighter
Level 9-11: Warlock
Level 12-15: Fighter
Level 16-20: Rogue
Subclasses are Dragon, Eldritch Knight and Infernal. Max Dex and then take Sharpshooter.
There's a table in the DMG (idk afb page#,didn't write it down oops) with ~create a monster data from CR 0 up to CR 30. It's got stats on it. I'm wondering how close those numbers are to what this thread has been using?
**
Spellpoints in the DMG, looks interesting.
My rough-in not calculated just yet opinion,
spellpoints are better from level 3 to 18,
except for Druid 3, Wiz 3 and Wiz 18.
19 and 20 is an arguement between the extra
6 and 7, versus a larger pile of 4s and 5s.
I love threads like this, but it can fail to capture intangibles. for example if your DM loves throwing hordes of lower level monsters at you, then maybe a Eldritch Knight is better than a battle master because of access to aoe spells.
But, one thing i have noticed, Fighters seem to have the best damage by far. I kinda wish attack 3 and 4 for extra attack where made at disadvantage. I remember that from previous editions, like in 2nd edition how each extra attack would be made at a lower bonus. I feel the extra attacks they get over the ones all other classes get should have disadvantage.
But i play by Raw, and by RAw fighters seem to be the dps king, which i guess really is ok since its there niche-they dont do anything else well.
Level 6: Monk 5 / Warlock 1
Halfling
Dex 18
Prof Bonus 3
unarmed strike damage 1d6+4 (+1d6 with hex)
Cast Hex 1/short rest
5 ki points, recovered every short rest.
Bonus to hit: 7 (+3 prof, +4 Dex)
Average Damage /hit: 11 : 2d6 (average 3.5 per die) +4
Chance to hit at level 6 assuming enemy has AC 16 (AC 14+level/3) 63%
(^Hits on a 9 or higher= 60%, plus reroll 1's, 60% chance to hit on the reroll: .60 x 5% = 3%) 60%+3%
4 Attacks: 2 with attack action, 2 additional as bonus action with ki point.
11 x 4 = 44
44 x .63 =
27.72 DPR for 5 rounds,
20.79 DPR after all ki points spent.
Now, if I only had the web kung-fu to properly format this.
Daydreamer80 wrote:
so a lvl 20 berserk barbarian does 73 dpr
and a
lvl 20 GWF Fighter deals 55 dpr?
so a barbarian superseeds the fighter? ok thats new for me, i thought the fighter is the better Damage Dealer
a Polearm Mastery Build cannot compete?
Seuleslintan wrote:
BS?
FrogReaver wrote:
Seuleslintan wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
mellored wrote:
the best comparison i found used to look at the blank stats
1 fight with every power
1 fight with no special ability available (no Rage/no smite...)
Does anyone have the DPS for a fighter with great weapon fighting and poolearm master. And if they do do you have the diffrences in DPR for each strength score?
Seuleslintan wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
FunkySpunk wrote:
borg285 wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FunkySpunk wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
No, it's dependent on:
- the fact that you can do so in real life (to be clear, it's the side AGAINST it that's ignoring reality).
and
- the fact you don't even need a second hand crossbow.
FunkySpunk wrote:
Yunru wrote:
FunkySpunk wrote:
FunkySpunk wrote:
See? That makes a whole lot more sense to me, especially if you specify that one hand is free.
Just for clarification, at level 5, you're attacking 3 times a round, level 11 4 times, and at level 20, a fighter with crossbow expert is firing 5 times a round.
FunkySpunk wrote:
DPR king doesn't care if you have a shield or not. Nor does it use bonus actions for anything but attacking.
This is not a "most playable" or even "most optimal" thread, just a "let's see how high we can get this paticular number" thread.
It's a math puzzle.
That said, it's often leads to optimized characters as well. Such as a crossbow expertise + sharpshooter battlemaster (precision attack) fighter, which is really nasty in actual game.
mellored wrote:
FrogReaver wrote: