Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 El_Karlos Jan 20, 2015 9:19:23	Hey guys,   I've been trying to convince my Pathfinder group to switch over to 5e (which has better rules, IMO) while keeping our characters and classes. We have a rogue, wizard, druid, and magus in the group, so I needed a way to port the Magus class into 5e. Here's what I came up with: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R4PDZjrvmSr7cYdmFLhMTfThYkF08ccenSP4nFmMhmo/edit?usp=sharing Starting with the assumption that the Spellstrike and Arcane Pool features are what makes a Magus *unique* as an arcane gish character, I plopped those features into the framework of existing 5e half-caster classes like the Paladin and Ranger, gave it access to the Sorcerer spell list, then worked on tweaking the existing class features from the Pathfinder SRD into the world of 5e mechanics. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus Spellstrike is essentially the Paladin's Divine Smite, but with the ability to change the effect based on your prepared spells. As such, it is probably going to be the hardest thing to balance. In Pathfinder, it only works with touch spells, but since there are only like 5 "touch" spells period in 5e, I needed a way to make it work with the existing spell list. To keep it from becoming too broken, I've made it so that Spellstrike cannot be used with cantrips or AoE spells. Using cantrips to add silly amounts of extra damage with each melee attack at no cost seemed the most broken option. I'd appreciate if you guys would take a look at it and check for any potential issues with the way I've worded it. Arcane Pool and Magus Arcana function like a cross between 5e Sorcery points and 5e Warlock invocations, allowing the player to customize the magus and how they spend Arcane points to enhance their abilities.   The end result appears to be an arcane gish character with higher Nova potential than the paladin, but without any of the paladin's defensive and utility buffs, and a smattering of nifty arcane utility spells; pretty much exactly the role a Pathfinder Magus is supposed to fill.
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 20, 2015 9:39:37	I think, especially when you are desiring a change because of what you find to be better rules, it is important not to drag any un-needed baggage along in a change of system - even when trying to keep the same characters.   To that effect, I recommend entirely abandoning the idea of inventing a new class to cover ground that 5th edition already covers - a Paladin with the right spells, an Eldritch Knight (the modern version of the thing which the Magus was invented to be an "un-gimped" version of), a Warlock, or even a multi-class combination of some of those (or sorcerer - depending on if the magus being converted used metamagics) will cover everything that the Magus is without requiring dragging baggage along.   I'd lean towards a multi-class Eldritch Knight with a bit of wizard thrown in for wider variety of spells, or just straight Eldritch Knight if the Magus in question used mostly combat spells.
(Reply to #2) El_Karlos	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#4 mellored Jan 20, 2015 10:46:13	I think EK missed the mark.   Though, an arcane paladin....   Arcane Pool -> Magic Weapon / Elemental Weapon spells.  (Note that magic weapons in general aren't nearly as importaint). Spellstrike -> Branding/Thunderous/Divine Smite.
(Reply to #4) jaappleton	mellored wrote:
#6 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 20, 2015 11:39:11	By way of dragging Pathfinder assumptions into 5th edition, your conversion is inherently broken.   Having the ability to make your weapon +1 for 1 minute means significantly different things in the two systems, despite both treating the magic weapon spell as the same spell level.   Having cantrips and extra attack seems strange to me since no other non-multiclass character that I know of normally gets both.   Spellstrike is another point of inherent issue when making Pathfinder assumptions and using 5th edition mechanics - though you did at least notice that you shouldn't allow it's use with cantrips. I find that if you need a whole paragraph of "but not this, or this, or that" after the paragraph describing what an ability does that said ability is too fiddly to be worth including - there is a reason the Eldritch Knight gets the ability to make a single weapon attack as a bonus action when casting a spell instead of getting an ability to charge a weapon with a spell and deliver weapon damage + spell effect in a single attack.   Magus Arcana: your vesion of these seems to be suffering from you trying to make them as much like Pathfinder as you can rather than modeling them after the nearest equivalent in 5th edition - that being warlock invocations - they'd work much better as each Arcana being either a constant minor effect, an at-will low-level spell effect, or a more potent effect limited to once per short rest or once per long rest for the most potent effects.   Spell Recovery: Even when having 8 less points to spend in comparison to a sorcerer, getting to create spell slots out of them (even if required to have spent the slots first) for diferent, less expensive costs is an issue - not just with stealing away what makes the sorcerer worth playing, but also in having a class feature do the same thing but work just a little different for no reason.   Spell combat: why not just use the Eldritch Knight's War Magic feature that does effectively the same thing? Also, do you really not see a bit of an issue with giving the magus the 18th level feature of the eldritch knight, but doing so 12 levels early?   Armor proficiency gained at higher levels: The entire point of those features not being granted at 1st level in Pathfinder is that heavier armor = higher AC no matter what your Dexterity is, and higher spell failure chance being offset. In 5th edition armor doesn't have such a huge impact on AC, and you can get the same (give or take a point) regardless of using light, medium, or heavy, and there is no failure chance - as such, it is more likely that gaining medium armor proficiency is not going to be met with wearing medium armor, but with continuing to wear light armor and having a higher Dexterity score unless the option is available at character creation (not many players are going to suffer through a few levels with intentionally lower AC so that upgrading to medium armor is an actual bonus, and even less will tough it out all the way to heavy armor).   Knowledge pool: It's ridiculous in Pathfinder, and it's even more ridiculous in 5th edition where sudden knowledge of a low level spell cast in a higher level spell slot is of extreme benefit.
#7 El_Karlos Jan 20, 2015 12:51:58	Thanks for taking the time to look through it. AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#8 Swamp_slug Jan 20, 2015 13:32:03	Aaron has covered most of the major points but I just want to add my 2 cp on top of his.   You've stated that Spellstrike is a core ability for the class, however, as Aaron states, it is very fiddly with quite a few exceptions. How about something simpler, along the lines of:   Spellstrike (essentially the Paladin's Smite) As a bonus action you can expend one spell slot to charge your weapon with magic for up to 1 minute. The next time you hit a creature before this duration ends, your weapon deals 1d8 damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The additional damage can be acid, cold, fire, lightning or thunder damage, chosen at the time the spell slot is expended. At 11th level, your spellstrike also applies one of the following effects, which must be chosen when the spell slot is expended: One other creature within 5ft of the target takes 5 damage of the type dealt to the original target (fire or lightning damage only) The target is pushed 10ft and knocked prone (thunder damage only) etc. This gives the feel of being able to magically imbue a weapon, while also allowing for some control over the power of any effects applied. It also allows the Magus player to use their prepared spells for things other than Paladin smites, although adding them to the class' spell list wouldn't be a bad idea either.    Arcane Pool's initial ability is just Magic Weapon but 4 levels early (should be picked up at 5th when the player gets 2nd level spells). It also doesn't require an increased expenditure to gain the higher level effects, just a higher class level. This is overpowered, especially considering that the core rules don't assume magic items. Based on the random treasure tables in the DMG, for challenge ratings of 0-4 (i.e. character levels below 5) you have no more than 10% (estimated) chance of a magic weapon appearing in a hoard.   Magus Arcana is just Warlock Invocations crossed with your Arcane Pool mechanic. Some of the effects listed could just be made permanent, others could be described as upgrades to the version of Spellstrike I propose and others could be Short or Long rest limited, meaning you can get rid of Arcane Pool, which feels like one system too many.   I would suggest looking at the Wizard's Arcane Recovery feature to replace Spell Recovery (which is useless without Arcane Pool). I would also push it to a higher level. Wizards and Sorcerers are all about their spells so getting a recovery mechanism early is fairly balanced. As a Fighter/Wizard archetype, the Magus has more options and therefore spell recovery on top of everything else is a bit too much. especially considering some of the Magus's bread and butter spells are low level with no higher level improvements.   Otherwise, keep the cantrips (Eldritch Knight gets them, so the Magus should too) and grant the additional armour proficiencies at level 1 (although I would personally cap it at medium armour).
#9 El_Karlos Jan 20, 2015 13:48:47	Swamp_slug wrote:
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	El_Karlos wrote:
#11 miburo99 Jan 20, 2015 15:46:09	I feel your pain on the EK missing the mark. Dunno if this helps, but I spent a lot of time creating an arcane halfcaster class (named Swordmage, feel free to call it what you want in game) which might meet some of the requirements you need. If you choose the Channeling archetype you get a version of Spellstrike, and in any case you get the ability to attack and throw spells at the same time. Also, it's been iterated on a million times by people on this forum and the GITP forums, so it should fit the 5E look and feel a lot better.   5E Swordmage Class
(Reply to #11) El_Karlos	miburo99 wrote:
#13 Swamp_slug Jan 21, 2015 12:14:29	Looks good. There are a couple of small things in Magus Arcana I've noted on a quick read through:   Arcane Armor, you should add a sentence clarifying whether the ability also grants knowledge of Blade Ward. I'm assuming that it is just an improvement to Blade Ward and requires you to already know it but I can also see an argument for it to grant knowledge of the cantrip. Empowered Magic, Magehunter's Brand, Prescient Attack, Reflection and Spell Shield all say "Once per day ... You regain the use of this abilityafter a short rest." These are contradictoryas the standard short rest is 1 hour. Either the ability is a once per day event and therefore not dependent on resting at all, or it can be used multiple times per day, but only once per short rest. If it is meant to be recharged on a long rest you might want to remove the "Once per day" part.
#14 AaronOfBarbaria Jan 21, 2015 12:48:53	Comments on the revision (that aren't a repetition of my still strong stance that you'd be better served simply having the character as a warlock or paladin):   DId you mean to have cantrips selected from wizard list and other spells from the sorcerer list? That's strange to me... I guess it works well enough, but I'd suggest creating a Magus specific list instead (that way you can include the paladin's smite spells if you wanted to).   Spellstrike: having to spend a bonus action and having the chance that you use spellstrike at the wrong time (whether by investing a spell slot of any kind and not making any successful attacks within the next minute, or by spending a higher level spell slot than would actually matter relative to your next opponents faced: 5d8 extra damage against goblins or orcs being a bit of a waste, for example) are huge problems for me - why not go with exactly the same timing for use as paladin's Smite, but including the option to choose the type of the added damage still as a replacement for dealing additional damage to fiends/undead. Especially since you have so many uses for bonus actions built into other features.   Minor note on Dispelling Strike: you need to specify the level at which dispel magic is cast, since any spell of equal or lower level is automatically ended, and dispel magic is not saved against in 5th edition - the caster rolls a spellcasting ability check against a DC of 10 + the targeted spell's level.   Magus Rituals: why aren't magi able to cast rituals from their spellbook by default?   Quickened Magic: Magus should not be able to defy the rules concerning casting spells as bonus actions when not even the Sorcerer, the class whose special feature is that they are the metamagic guys, can do so.   Reflection: To be consistent with similar elements already in the 5th edition rules, such as a ring of spell turning, the reflected spell's DC or attack bonus should be that of the caster - not the Magus.   Throwing Magus: you still reference arcane pool, though you have intelligently removed that pool from the class.   Magehunter strike: I think it is weird to give the magus part of a feat - I'd suggest giving the whole mage slayer feat, or dropping this feature.   True Magus: not a great plan to give the class a guarantee of +3 weapon when that is the exact oposite of 5th edition's goals in regards to the handling of magic items - causing hit targets to be at disadvantage on saving throws against your spells for 1 round (which could be more than just one spell) is probably enough.
#15 El_Karlos Jan 21, 2015 14:21:17	Swamp_slug wrote:
(Reply to #15) AaronOfBarbaria	El_Karlos wrote:
#17 Lamjzurg Oct 05, 2015 21:09:26	El_Karlos,    I just put together my own magus conversion. You had some good ideas, so I used them. You can find it here:    http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?470013-Magus-(Fighter-Magic-User)-Homebrew&p=6721901#post6721901   Thanks for sharing your work.
#18 Mazzy Oct 09, 2015 10:24:36	You made this substantially more complicated than it needed to be.   You basically want to make an arcane gish build with divine smite and sorcery points. The easiest and best solution is a favored soul sorcerer, with a two-level dip into paladin. Favored soul is in one of the Unearthed Arcana articles and gets extra attack as a feature.   Honestly I understand that designing a new class sounds fun, but it usually causes a lot of problems. The campaign ends up becoming a glorified play test where the class needs to be tweeked every couple sessions and it takes away from the core gaming experience. It won't be nearly as fun as it sounds in your head.   Alternatively, as a simple and smaller adjustment, he can be a straight-blade-pact warlock, and you can just allow him to learn a couple of the smite-spells from the paladin spell list. That won't break anything and won't be a whole new class.