Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Edit132 Jan 10, 2015 19:47:22	I've been looking through all the various classes and such and I'm having a hard time figuring out what would be best for what I want to play and was hoping for some help.   Currently i'm looking for a ranged class that offers decent damage but has a bit more utility than just flinging arrows or fireballs at something till it dies.   Which are some of the classes best for that?
#2 pukunui Jan 10, 2015 19:54:45	Ranger provides you with a bunch of skills, campaign-dependent wilderness survival stuff, and a few spells in addition to allowing you to be a wickedly awesome archer.   Warlock provides you with some fun (and potentially creepy) magical abilities in addition to being able to shoot stuff with eldritch blast.   Those are the two I'd recommend.
#3 mellored Jan 10, 2015 20:27:00	I agree with warlock. Good ranged damage, and plenty of utility options.
#4 Edit132 Jan 10, 2015 20:49:34	Hmm, I'll take a closer look but Aren't wizards good for utility? Or did that get nerfed in 5e? (Compared to 3.5)   On a simular note. How are Clerics and Bards in that reguard? I feel like both are nice from the support and utility aspect...but I don't feel like they offer much more than that.
#5 Saelorn Jan 10, 2015 21:34:16	Compared to warlocks and rangers, wizards are more utility-oriented and less damage-focused. Both warlocks and rangers get a cheap spell that amplifies their damage on every hit, where wizards need to share their spell slots between damage effects and strong utility abilities. The at-will damage on a wizard isn't that great.   Clerics are in a similar boat, but with a different spell list. Bards have the greatest breadth of utility options, and are capable of grabbing spells from other classes and providing mundane skill solutions, but again not-so-great with the damage.
(Reply to #4) Ashrym	Edit132 wrote:
#7 Edit132 Jan 10, 2015 22:13:18	Well, Basically I want to be useful in combat and out, to a greater or lesser extent. I hate feeling like I have nothing I can do or contribute to either sets. I also like the ability to not do -just- damage but possibly buff, debuff, control, etc. I'm not sure if any class throws those all together but that's what i'm hoping most for.
#8 Yunru Jan 11, 2015 1:35:42	Do you have Multiclassing? If so there are some every-skill-by-level-5 builds I can dig up, and they still manage reasonable ranged damage.
(Reply to #7) Ashrym	Edit132 wrote:
#10 Yunru Jan 11, 2015 3:39:04	War Cleric is basically completely outclassed. Both in general and by Death.
#11 Devils-Advocate Jan 11, 2015 8:46:06	Edit132 wrote:
#12 mellored Jan 11, 2015 9:17:03	you mostly want to avoid the fighter, monk, paladin and sorcerer, who all tend to be extra combat focused. the other classes are just a matter of degrees, and even then, there's a lot of variation in each class. but overall i suggest wizard or druid, because you can simply change spells to fit. you can change weather you have utility, control, or damage on the fly. clerics can as well, but they lack damage options and focus on recovery instead.
(Reply to #10) 1eejit	Yunru wrote:
#14 mellored Jan 11, 2015 10:03:18	Hold monster requires Wis, their buff spells require str/dex, and being in melee requires Con. They are just too MAD for the benefit. That said, they are great for multi-classing.
(Reply to #14) 1eejit	mellored wrote:
#16 Yunru Jan 11, 2015 10:38:12	Yes but the solution to MCing from a MAD class isn't to MC into another MAD (sub)class.
#17 BRJN Jan 11, 2015 10:58:25	Edit132 wrote:
(Reply to #10) Ashrym	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #17) Ashrym	BRJN wrote:
#20 crimfan07 Jan 11, 2015 13:53:01	I'm a big fan of the ranged utility character so that's a common one for me.    Warlock has some really great options. I used Warlock to build an Arcane Archer type character, an NPC in the side trek to our regular campaign that I'm running while the regular DM is intermittently absent due to work requirements. Eldrich Blast dishes nice damage, you have some nifty spells and spell-like abilities. The invocations that give +Cha modifier damage on Eldrich Blast and the ability to cast False Life are both very nice. Hex boosts your damage output even more, and Misty Step is great for getting out of trouble. Witch Bolt is also pretty vicious. All I did to make the theme fit was refluff so that a shortbow was the arcane focus. The shortbow isn't actually being used at all, it's just Eldrich Blast.    My regular PC in the campaign is a Valor Bard refluffed as an Artificer (we converted 4E characters). Crossbow Expertise means I get a good number of crossbow shots. I don't do as much damage as a dedicated damage dealing character, but can move it around the battlefield to pick off weak targets or weaken targets to set up the barbarian, then drop spells and Bardic Inspiration as necessary.
#21 Tfuture Jan 11, 2015 14:06:42	I would say Warlock, they seem the most versatile, they can be a caster, in close combat, or a utility depending on your invocations (which you can change every level), and if you really want extra utility and your ability scores allow it  x-class 2 levels into Ranger so you get all the tracking stuff, more armour, fighting style, a heal and another skill
(Reply to #16) 1eejit	Yunru wrote:
#23 mellored Jan 11, 2015 14:40:34	It's not like war clerics are unviable, but basicly every other cleric has more to offer. They also have some niche combos, like contagion spam (with +10 to hit) if you fight a lot of lengendary creatures, and crusader's mantle for a necromancer (though bless is better for most parties).
(Reply to #23) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#25 mellored Jan 11, 2015 18:53:28	Nature can get shileghle, allowing you to go straight wis/con. Life can more or less ignore, wis and go dex/con. any of the casting ones can do wis/con. and you use the extra feats for more stuff like healer, or heavy armor expertise. as for the comparison to the monk, the monk isn't as depenant on concentration. again, it's not like war clerics are useless, just too MAD to be too useful. if you rolled well, then it's probably on the better side. Though even with the MAD, it's pretty good at level 17+, resist is pretty powerful.
#26 Coredump00 Jan 11, 2015 18:57:52	I am currently playing a Ranger/Rogue archer.  Really good at the archery, with plenty of utility abilities...
(Reply to #25) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#28 GladiusLegis Jan 11, 2015 21:03:56	Problem with Crusader's Mantle for a War Cleric is that Bless is simply a higher-priority spell and is available to all Clerics.   Crusader's Mantle from a Paladin in addition to a Cleric's Bless? Great. But War Cleric's Crusader's Mantle in lieu of Bless? Not so much.
(Reply to #28) Ashrym	GladiusLegis wrote:
#30 Lysandre01 Jan 12, 2015 0:07:06	Edit132 wrote:
#31 TheNovaLord Jan 12, 2015 3:21:41	Bard   Enjoy
#32 Yunru Jan 12, 2015 5:12:39	Ignore the ranting of one trying to back up the War Cleric. Wizard is versatile, Divination has the best-but-limited debuffing ever (limited to when you roll low).   Ohterwise, Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Blast can sustain you attack damage, allowing crazy builds like Warlock 2/Rogue 1/Knowledge Cleric 1/Ranger 1/Bard 6.
#33 Congreve Jan 12, 2015 5:22:44	Depends on what tier of the campaign you expect to do the most in. If you can get to overchannel (Evoker trait) then wizard would be my pick based on your description. Before you get there the other classes mentioned will be straight up superior damage dealers. When it comes to utility the wizard reigns supreme. In the last tier of play a wizards toolbox of utility spells is campaign defining.
(Reply to #32) 1eejit	Yunru wrote:
#35 Yunru Jan 12, 2015 5:57:15	Yeah but it's not MAD because all you need is a good CHA. And a 13 in DEX and WIS. 16/14/14/12/8/8 or 16/14/14/10/10/8 is totally doable.
#36 mellored Jan 12, 2015 6:31:52	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #35) 1eejit	Yunru wrote:
#38 Yunru Jan 12, 2015 7:47:05	Uh no. No it's not. Why? Because you don't need Con. You're not a front-liner, you're not standing in front the enemy getting hit. You're 120 feet away, casting Eldritch Blast. A Con of 10/12 is fine for you.
#39 mellored Jan 12, 2015 7:51:14	Yunru wrote:
#40 Yunru Jan 12, 2015 8:04:58	Yeah but it's not nearly as skill-monkey :P
#41 durntaur Jan 12, 2015 9:22:30	+1 Warlock
#42 miburo99 Jan 12, 2015 14:38:17	If multiclassing is allowed, another possibility is Lore Bard + Warlock. Warlock gives you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast invocation for good at-will ranged damage. Lore Bard gives you a versatile list of spells and skills, along with the ever-awesome Cutting Words. Having a high Cha can make a good "face" out of combat, and a decent Dex can let you skulk around as well. For your second invocation, you could pick up Armor of Shadows for slightly better AC, or something like Mask of Many Faces so you can change your appearance (though a Disguise kit probably works just fine).    I think the two classes combine together great in flavor as well. A struggling entertainer who sells his/her soul in order to get really good or become famous, etc.
(Reply to #35) Ashrym	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #36) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #43) Yunru	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #45) Ashrym	Yunru wrote:
#47 Yunru Jan 12, 2015 16:43:08	Ah yes, 16 isn't available point-buy. My bad there. Still comparing a, to quote you, 4 ABI build and a 2 ABI and declaring the one that requires 2 to be MAD? You need to look up what MAD means. It means Multiple Attribute Dependancy. Therefore my build, dependant only on Cha, is less MAD than yours, depending on Str/Dex and Wis. Sure mine has stat requirements, but beyond that it's not dependent on those stats.
#48 mellored Jan 13, 2015 5:44:37	Ashrym wrote:
#49 Edit132 Jan 13, 2015 5:56:53	After tons of suggestions and feed back from you guys and countless hours pouring over my book to figure out what I'd like best. I finally decided on a warlock, as with a tome pact I could get a lot of additional cantrips and eventually rituals, not to mention I'd be a pretty solid DPS and overall fun to roleplay.   However, I'm having a bit of trouble I was hoping someone could help with.   My main issue is picking how to spend my attribute points. I chose tiefling so I have +2 cha and +1 Int.   I could also use some help picking out a few decent spells and cantrips, but mostly need help with the attributes.       Also, I'd like to thank everyone so far for helping me decide on this, not to mention giving me ideas for future characters.
#50 mellored Jan 13, 2015 6:10:14	Edit132 wrote:
#51 Yunru Jan 13, 2015 6:10:46	16 in CHA, that's a given. You'll want decent DEX, for AC, Initiative and Dex Saves. Int and Str don't really do much for you and can be safely ignored. Con and Wis are both good to have at 10-12, for health and perception respectively.   Which leads me to this: 16 CHA, 15 DEX, 15 WIS, 10 CON, 9 INT, 8 STR: good for skill monkeying, two ABI maxes Cha, another to put Dex and Wis to 16 each, leaving two spare. or 16 CHA, 14 DEX, 14 WIS, 12 CON, 10 INT, 9 STR: Yeah, had a point left over, didn't know where to put it. More Con, and thus HP, at the cost of less Dex and Wis should you choose to invest in them. or 17 CHA, 15 DEX, 14 WIS, 10 CON, 9 INT, 8 STR: This is if you want to max out your attack stat and your AC/Initiative/Dodging Fireballs stat.   17 CHA, 15 DEX, 12 WIS, 12 CON, 10 INT, 8 STR: Is also possible. You trade a +1 to Wis related stuff for +1 to Con checks and saves and +1 HP per level.
#52 Edit132 Jan 13, 2015 6:35:12	Yunru wrote:
#53 Yunru Jan 13, 2015 6:48:12	Wisdom powers perception, increasing uour chances of spotting hidden things/creatures. Con isn't as important for you because you're not going to be right in the thick of it as a range caster. That said, you wouldn't want less than 10 Con.
#54 mellored Jan 13, 2015 6:57:21	Yunru wrote:
#55 Edit132 Jan 13, 2015 10:10:25	Hmm, maybe something a little like this?   8 14 15( 8   (9) 12 15   (17)   I don't think str will help me that much, at all. I don't know what good int is, really. Besides my skills that deal with int. Wis seems nice but like Mel said, I think con might be a bit more important. Feel free to correct me and offer better advice, still fairly new to 5e so I feel like i'm not getting a lot that seems fairly obvious to most.
#56 mellored Jan 13, 2015 10:30:57	Edit132 wrote:
(Reply to #56) Edit132	mellored wrote:
#58 mellored Jan 13, 2015 10:47:18	Edit132 wrote:
(Reply to #48) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#60 Yunru Jan 13, 2015 13:12:09	You kno2, I would type out a well thought out reply, but it's obvious he's just stubbornly refusing a failed point, so I'm not going to.
#61 mellored Jan 13, 2015 13:31:24	Ashrym wrote:
#62 Yunru Jan 13, 2015 13:52:46	Don't bother, he'll just block you for disagreeing. Oh and throw in some false accusations too.
(Reply to #61) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#64 Edit132 Jan 13, 2015 19:06:47	Hmm, been looking around for various resources to read and I saw a suggestion on putting a few levels into bard. I was wondering if that was a viable option later on, or if I should just go straight warlock. Since I doubt we're going to get all the way to 20th level.
#65 miburo99 Jan 13, 2015 19:32:36	Well, my previous post was thinking 2 levels of warlock and the rest bard. Bard benefits more from a warlock dip than the other way around, but it's really about what you want in your character.
#66 Edit132 Jan 13, 2015 20:15:45	miburo99 wrote:
(Reply to #66) Ashrym	Edit132 wrote:
#68 mellored Jan 14, 2015 6:17:47	Ashrym wrote:
#69 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jan 14, 2015 9:30:47	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #68) Ashrym	[quote="mellored"]   Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #69) Ashrym	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#72 Yunru Jan 14, 2015 11:02:29	So a decent CD, Hold Monster, and at most a +2.5? Yeah, sure love me some War Cleric.
#73 mellored Jan 14, 2015 12:20:38	mellored wrote:
#74 Edit132 Jan 14, 2015 14:02:13	@Ash I was considering going full warlock but now that you mention it, having just the 2 levels gives me the most appealing aspect of the class. The warlock class features have some pretty appealing things but you seem to be far more knowledgeable in the matter and seem to believe they just don't stack up. Is bard really that great? If so, please tell me more.   If not for the whole bard thing and I were to do mostly warlock, should I bother taking levels in anything else? I'd have a 14 in dex, con, and wisdom. Not great for other classes but not horrible, either.
(Reply to #73) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#76 mellored Jan 14, 2015 15:39:04	Ashrym wrote:
#77 Yunru Jan 14, 2015 16:06:27	Hmmm... let's take the strongest weapon (2d6) and Sacred Flame. The weapon does 2d6+Str, capping out at +5. That's an average damage of 12 at maximum. Sacred Flame does 13.5 average damage by level 11 and doesn't cap out until it reaches 18 average damage.
#78 GladiusLegis Jan 14, 2015 16:20:28	You're forgetting Divine Strike, which adds 1d8 at Lv. 8, 2d8 at Lv. 14. So for the greatsword, that's 16.5 and 21 maximums there, respectively.   But that said, I'd never go anything besides one-hander + shield for a Cleric. Lack of extra attacks, plus the fact that all the Cleric's melee damage at high level is independent of weapon, makes two-handers not worth the -2 AC.
#79 mellored Jan 14, 2015 17:33:27	Also, the more damage you do, the more accuracy is worth. 10+1d4 * 50%= 6.25 (crusader's mantle) 10*62.5% = 6.25 (Bless) 20+1d4*50%=11.25 (Crusaders) 20*62.5%=12.5 (Bless) and given that bless doesn't need people standing close after the cast, and is a lower level spell, that's just win. Unless you can get a lot of people in crusaders.
(Reply to #74) Ashrym	Edit132 wrote:
#81 GladiusLegis Jan 14, 2015 18:01:49	mellored wrote:
#82 Edit132 Jan 14, 2015 18:14:35	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #78) Ashrym	GladiusLegis wrote:
(Reply to #81) Ashrym	GladiusLegis wrote:
(Reply to #82) Ashrym	Edit132 wrote: