A Knife in the Dark – The Rogue’s Handbook
"Rogues, would you live forever?"
- Frederick the Great
Contents:
1. Overview
- Know Your Role
- Ability Scores
- Races
- Backgrounds
2. Rogue Class Features
- Skills
3. Roguish Archetypes
- Spells
10. Multiclassing
11. Feats & Example Builds
12. Tips, Tricks & Handy Links
Overview:
Ah, the loveable rogue. The adventurer who lies, cheats, steals, stabs people in the kidneys, and really isn’t all that loveable now is he? Unless, of course, if he’s on your side. After all, no one else is crazy enough to stick their fingers into that spring-loaded trap, or to sneak off alone and make a grab for that ice giant’s key ring. He’s a useful chap to have around and you’re pretty sure you believe him when he says that your kidneys, at least, are safe.
Know Your Role:
Rogues in 5e can expect to dish out respectable amounts of single-target damage while also taking point on a variety of skill checks. Rogues are not front line warriors; they have neither the hp nor the AC for prolonged exchanges. Instead they dart in and out of combat or fire arrows from afar while using their dirty tricks to avoid, reduce or even negate any attacks that come their way. Keep in mind that although a rogue's damage output will likely be lower than a properly specced tank, their stronger out-of-combat presence and unique defensive features will make up for it.
From this point forward, the following colour coding will be used:
Sky Blue = Very good
Blue = Good
Black = Average
Purple = Bad
Red = Very bad
Ability Scores:
As most Rogues are a SAD (Single Ability Dependency) class, you have a surprising amount of stat placement options available. Pump up your attack stat and do as you will with the rest. Remember that certain class features (Expertise, Reliable Talent, Slippery Mind) can help compensate for low or mediocre scores for certain skills or saves.
Strength: 1/1 related skills are available to Rogues. Viable dump stat. This is for Athletics checks only, and you can get by without it. Aspiring spider monkeys may want 10-14. Others want 8-12. You could build a Str-based rogue, but you’ll need specific race, feat, and/or multiclassing choices to make it work, and note that Sneak Attack still needs a finesse or ranged weapon.
Dexterity: 3/3 related skills are available to Rogues. One of the big three saves. This is for attacks, damage, AC, Initiative, skills and class features. Everyone wants 16-17. Str-based rogues will still want 12-15 here.
Constitution: 0/0 skills. One of the big three saves. Hit points are important, but you will develop ways to avoid or mitigate damage. Everyone wants 10-14, depending on if you prefer ranged or melee.
Intelligence: 1/5 related skills are available to Rogues. Viable dump stat. Arcane Tricksters will want 14-17. Others want 8-12.
Wisdom: 2/5 related skills are available to Rogues. Viable dump stat. One of the big three saves. Everyone wants 8-14.
Charisma: 4/4 related skills are available to Rogues. Viable dump stat if you aren’t a people person. Everyone wants 8-14.
Rogue Class Features
Hit Points: d8. You are beefier than the mages, but that's not saying much. You may visit the front lines, but you definitely don't want to live there.
Proficiencies
Armor: Light. This is fine, I guess. Unless you went for a Str Rogue, medium armor isn’t worth it.
Weapons: All simple weapons plus hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, & shortswords. This gets you every finesse weapon except the scimitar (aka slashing shortswords) & whip (aka slashing daggers with reach), so you’re good to go. Note that you cannot Sneak Attack with longswords so don't bother with them. Also keep in mind that all of your weapons do piercing damage except slings, so keep one in your backpack in case piercing resistance ever comes up.
Rapier – The simplest choice, works well with cunning actions. Hold a hand crossbow or throwing dagger in your off hand for those turns when you can’t quite get into position. Cunning Action will help keep you safe by dancing in and out of melee. You sacrifice optimized damage for versatility.
Two Weapon Fighting – Two shortsword attack rolls equal two chances to land sneak attack, but you won't be able to use cunning action in the same turn. This is tied with ranged for the most damaging choice (with Dual Wielder feat and 2 rapiers). While TWF allows more wiggle room in your build than ranged, it's also the riskiest option as you have no bonus action left to disengage from melee.
Ranged – Stay out of harm’s way while kill stealing from (um, i mean focusing fire with) your meat shield. This is the safest choice and with the right race/feat (halfling/Crossbow Expertise) it can be the most damaging if you gain advantage on attacks every turn via stealth. Other builds may not do as much damage. Also remember that your meatshield may grant your enemy cover, so train your bruisers to fight at the side of the enemy where they won't block your line of fire.
Thank you to the mathemagicians below for running the numbers!
Roguish Archetypes
Thief
This is your stereotypical rogue path, buffing your stealing, climbing, and sneaking, as well as granting the old favorite Use Magic Device and the awesome Thief's Reflexes. I find this Archetype to be a mix of good and bad features. It's up to you if the whole package is worth it.
Fast Hands: Expanding your Cunning Action to cover Sleight of Hand, thieves' tools, and Use an Object actions. A DM may or may not let you pickpocket during a fight, although you may find using objects like ball bearings, poisons or potions as a bonus action to be handy. Works also with pouring oil, but not splashing it on someone as that's an attack roll (debated; ask your DM). Works very well with the Healer feat. See the sidebar on p.190 in the PHB for a non-inclusive list of other potential actions.
Second Story Work: The need to climb fast rarely comes up. The jumping bonus is so bad it might be broken: an extra 1-5 feet with 12-20 Dex only gets you 1 extra square, if you're using a map & minis, and is nigh-useless in the Theatre of the Mind playstyle.
Supreme Sneak: This would be great just taken at face value, but advantage on stealth is fantastic for setting up Sneak Attack. Wood Elves and Lightfoot Halflings will love this.
Use Magic Device: With magic items being as rare as they are in 5e (p. 144), there won't be many extra wands of fireball lying around for you to use.
Thief's Reflexes: Taking two turns is fantastic, and unlike Assassinate it works no matter how badly you roll your Initiative. Depending on the spread of rolls it's possible for you to get two turns in a row (ie if you go last normally, or if you're first and everyone else rolled terribly), potentially letting you Sneak Attack both times!
Multiclassing
For the sake of this guide (and my sanity), I generally won't review beyond losing more than 8 rogue levels to multiclassing. Go much farther than that and you're not really a rogue anymore anyways. Also, I'll leave some of the crazier/more intense multiclass theorycrafting for others to do; for a great example of this see "Dealing Death: Handbook of the True Assassin" in the Handy Links section.
General Rogue Multiclassing - Any class feature that I've previously rated Blue or Skyblue is usually worth keeping in your build. Ability Score Increases are often worth it too. If you're going to multiclass, try to jump out before you hit a subpar feature or at least make an equal trade. Also keep in mind that when I say "keep x number of levels, then multiclass for y number of levels", you can break it up and insert those MC dips wherever you want within or after the x levels.
Thief Multiclassing - Thieves will want 9 rogue levels at least for Supreme Sneak, will usually stay for Reliable at 11, ASI at 12, and/or UMD at 13, and it might be worth it to stay around for Thief's Reflexes at 17 as well. Fill in the gaps as needed.
Assassin Multiclassing - Either jump out early at or soon after Assassinate, stay until your ASI at 12, or stick it out until Death Strike.
Arcane Trickster Multiclassing - You will want to keep 13 levels for Versatile Trickster. Hardest Archetype to multiclass with as you potentially have to keep up 3 stats (Dex, Int, Wis/Cha), depending on the class. Jump out somewhere in 14-19.
What You Lose When Multiclassing:
1 level dip: I'd recomended this for most rogues; you lose nothing but a relatively weak capstone ability (1 auto hit/short rest).
2-3 level dip - This is fine as well, depending on if the trade-off is worth missing an Ability Score Improvement (you won't miss Elusive or 1d6 worth of Sneak Attack).
4 - You won't miss out on an ASI, but you lose a Roguish Archetype feature and 2d6 SA dice
5 - As above, but with a net loss of 1 ASI. Note that many classes get an Extra Attack at this level, which is very good.
6 - As above, but you also lose 3d6 SA and Slippery Mind (nooo!)
7 - As above, but you also lose Blindsense. Not a big deal.
8 - As above, but you also lose a Roguish Archetype feature and 4d6 SA.
Feats:
Alert: +5 to Initiative is pretty much mandatory for Assassins. Thieves and Arcane Tricksters don't really need it.
Athlete: Thieves already get the climbing bonus, and the rest isn't really worth it.
Actor: You can already mimic the speech of another person with Minor Illusion if you're a Forest Gnome and/or an Arcane Trickster, and the bonus to disguises is situational.
Charger: This does not gain any benefit from Cunning Action as you can't take two bonus actions on your turn. In fact it interferes with your Cunning Action to disengage.
Crossbow Expert: Lets you ignore the loading property so you can draw ammunition as part of the attack. Taken with the feat's third property, a rogue armed with a hand crossbow can fire twice in one turn, although you need one hand free to handle the ammo. One of the few ways a rogue can get multiple attack rolls without multiclassing for 5 levels. Take either this or Dual Wielder.
Defensive Duelist: This can potentially be one of the best defensive feats at high level, but note that it competes with Uncanny Dodge (both use your reaction) and it only protects against melee attacks.
Dual Wielder: Take either this or Crossbow expert for optimizing damage. Better for Swashbucklers.
Dungeon Delver: This is dependant on your campaign (and DM); fighting a horde of orcs? You don't need this. Raiding tombs? Might be a good idea. Arcane Tricksters can just use their Mage Hand to avoid trap damage entirely.
Durable: Normal hit die recovery for rogues is ~4.5+Con. Con is usually +1 or +2 for rogues, so this benefit will turn your avg hit die recovery to ~5+Con or ~6+Con. Not worth it.
Elemental Adept: You don't ever use elemental damage spells.
Grappler: There's an interesting Grappler's Manual in the Handy Links section below. Check that out to make a Grappling Rogue, but it looks like a 2-7 level dip into rogue is preferred over going full rogue, emphasis on 2. Everyone else can avoid.
Great Weapon Master: You can't Sneak Attack with these.
Healer: This actually isn't that bad. Healer's Kits heals more hp per shot than a potion of healing and are also much more cost efficient (about 7 copper per hit point healed without even factoring the number of hit dice, vs about 7.1 gold per hit point with the potion). This feat ends up saving the party hundreds of gold over the long run, and Healer's Kits are also more common than magical potions. Try to convince someone else to take this. Better for Thieves wth their Fast Hands & Cunning Action(use an object) features.
Heavily Armored: Maybe a Str-based Mountain Dwarf rogue would consider this, but they should just dip into fighter instead.
Heavy Armor Master: No, this is too far even for the Mountain Dwarf.
Inspiring Leader: Meh, this isn't really your bag of tricks.
Keen Mind: Just straight bump Int instead, if you feel the need.
Lightly Armored: Worthless to you.
Linguist: Just straight bump Int instead, if you feel the need.
Lucky: This is what the rogue's 20th level ability should have been. However, RAW this doesn't actuallly grant advantage per se, just an extra d20, so it doesn't work with Sneak Attack. Ask your DM.
Mage Slayer: Spike your melee damage and defend against casters, but remember you need an ally nearby (or invisibility, etc) to trigger Sneak Attack. This uses your reaction to make a special melee weapon attack, not an opportunity attack, so it doesn't work with Sentinel. Overall this feat sees less use than Sentinel but is also less risky. Remind your DM that this works against innate spellcasting too, and ask their opinion on whether your attack interrupts or happens after the casting of the enemy's spell. Not for ranged rogues.
Magic Initiate: Get hex and don't look back. The target won't know you've placed a hex on it (pg. 204) so casting this from hiding won't break surprise, and since initiative counts as a dexterity check this is great for Assassins to set up assassinate/death strike! Hex can also last multiple encounters (as long as you don't travel or take a short rest) because you can retarget it anytime after the initial target dies within the 1 hour duration. If you prefer a divine flavor, guidance, resistance and bless are solid selections from the cleric list; you don't even need any Wis to make them work.
Martial Adept: 1 maneuver per short rest isn't that great. If you do take this, go with Precision and Riposte.
Medium Armor Master: Str-based Mountain Dwarf rogues or multiclass rogue/fighters may want this, but no one else.
Mobile: +10 speed is good for small rogues]) but, unless you really want to make the most of TWF, you already have Cunning Action to disengage.
Moderately Armored: This may be worth it, or you could just dip into fighter, but note that with 20 dex you'll need to use a shield for this to provide any AC benefit at all.
Mounted Combatant: Having automatic advantage on melee attack rolls is great on paper, but most campaigns will probably require you to become unmounted fairly regularly. Also as a rogue you generally don't want to encourage attackers to target you.
Observant: If you have proficiency and Expertise in perception, this can be potentially game breaking in your DM's eyes. If not, this can still be useful. Note that this adds a modifier to your passive score only, not to any actual rolls.
Polearm Master: Nope. No Sneak Attacks with two-handed weapons.
Resilient: Choose Con and by 15th level you will be proficient in all 3 big saves. This works best if your character starts off with an odd Con stat.
Ritual Caster: If you take this, choose Find Familiar and an owl (flyby attack + help action = advantage). Some DM's might not allow this interpretation of the help action; ask first.
Savage Attacker: No, re-rolling one d8 (at best) is really weak for a feat.
Sentinel: On paper, more opportunity attacks = more Sneak Attacks (as long as SA conditions are met), however this is quite risky as monsters will probably just end up focusing on you. Great if your party has a way of directing who your enemy attacks (ie Goading Attack maneuver, etc). General consensus says that Sentinel attacks resolve after the triggering attack so you can only avenge your friend's death, not prevent it. Not for ranged rogues.
Sharpshooter: This is okay for those that prefer ranged, but try to only use it with advantage on your attack roll. Works better when paired with Skulker, especially for Assassins. This way your assassinate/death strike will do plenty more damage with less risk if you miss.
Shield Master: This lets you shove(knock prone) as a bonus action before your attack to set up Sneak Attack conditions, but you need to grab proficiency with shields from somewhere first. For best results you should be trained in Athletics with Expertise. Also, the target can only be one size category larger than you so Halflings and Gnomes should pass.
Skilled: Ehhh, not really neccesary. You already get at least 6 skills.
Skulker: Pretty darn good for sniping! There's a bit of overlap though for Wood Elves and Lightfoot Halflings.
Spell Sniper: You don't use spells with attack rolls.
Tavern Brawler: Check the Grappler's Manual in the Handy Links section below. Otherwise avoid; you can't Sneak Attack with improvised weapons or unarmed strikes.
Tough: More hitpoints are always welcome, but it's best for rogues to focus on other areas (like how not to get hit at al)..
War Caster: Only for Arcane Tricksters, and even then it's not a top priority. Full casters get more use out of this feat than you.
Weapon Master: Heavy crossbows, longbows, scimitars and whips aren't worth the price of a feat. For what it's worth, whips are the best choice here.
Tips, Tricks & Combos
- Always try to gain advantage, even if your target already has an adjacent ally. Increasing your odds to hit will increase your damage output.
- Sneak Attack doesn't necessarily require an ally to be adjacent to the target, only an "enemy" of the target. This can be handy in a 3-way fight (berserking monsters, released prisoners, Gated fiends, etc) or with dominated enemies compelled to fight against their former allies.
- You can safely move through an enemy's space if it is two sizes larger or smaller than you, treating it as difficult terrain. ie Halflings can move through a Dire Wolf's space but not a Rat's, and vice versa for Humans.
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Your damage will spike upwards if you manage to get reaction attacks with Sneak Attack. See "Ways to attack with your Reaction" in the Handy links section.
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Have your allies force monster movement with Turn Undead, Dissonant Whispers, Confusion, etc to trigger Opportunity Attacks. Pushes and pulls don't work.
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An owl familiar, yours or not, can do a flyby Help action to set up Sneak Attack.
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Thieves: Use healing kits in conjunction with your Fast Hands feature and the Healer feat to heal 1d6+4+level as a bonus action.
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Assassins: Hidden intentions and sudden betrayal can be just as surprising as a hidden position and sudden ambush. Et tu, Brute?
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Arcane Tricksters: You can see through your own, and possibly your allies', illusions. Use this to establish Sneak Attack conditions from behind or even inside an illusion.
Gaining Advantage
Remember that it only takes one source of advantage or disadvantage to cancel both out, no matter how many sources of each there are.
- Attacking while hidden from your target, ie with a successful stealth check
- Attacking while unseen from your target, ie while invisible or behind/within Total Cover or a Heavily Obscured area
- Target is blinded, paralyzed, petrified, prone (within 5'), restrained, stunned, unconscious
- Target is under the effect of Faerie Fire, Guiding Bolt, Otto's Irresistible Dance
- Target is squeezing through a space one size smaller than itself
- You are under the effect of Foresight, True Strike
- You have inspiration from your DM
- You have the Assassinate or Versatile Trickster class feature
- Ally uses the Help action on your target
Nice. I've been looking forward to seeing a Rogue guide, so I'll be very interested once you've completed. I've been thinking of the Rogue as something of an "Advanced" class (it requires strategic play and choices to be effective), so I think a guide here will be a big help to people who may unexpectedly find themselves getting mulched by enemies that can hit surprisingly hard.
A couple of things worth mentioning for elves. The longbow is a great weapon. Cunning Action has excellent synergy with Wood Elf movement speed.
Demosthenes2054 wrote:
A note on backgrounds, p. 125, under Proficiencies: "If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead."
So that ought to help Criminal/Spy and Urchin out some. In fact, if anything, those backgrounds are even better in a Rogue's employ than anyone else's since they literally get to pick ANY tool proficiency they want in place of the thieves' tools they already get.
I don't even consider starting equipment in the rating since by Lv. 2, if not before, you'll easily be able to buy better stuff anyway.
Also Perception should be sky blue, at least, if not gold. Investigation doesn't help you detect hidden enemies, while Perception does. And there's group perception checks, and you don't want to be a liability in those.
Stealth is gold for Assassins.
I don't see ranged damage suffering at higher levels. If anything, they do better since more of your damage comes from sneak attack, not weapons.
And you can either use crossbow expertise for a second attack, or hide (with expertise and reliable talent) for advantage. Either way you get 2 rolls.
If anything, i'm not seeing much reason for a rogues to go into melee unless someone can give you an OA (Commander's Strike, Dissonant Whispers).
That said, nothing stops you from carrying multiple weapons.
Also elf longbow proficency is not a wasted. Even if you have crossbow expertise, you can carry one for long distance attacks.
Yeah, ranged is definitely the way to go for a Rogue. Considering you can Disengage as a bonus action if someone closes on you in melee, even moreso. Even more still with Crossbow Expertise. Also, Commander's Strike even works with a ranged ally, and as long as the Fighter commanding you is next to the enemy you're about to gank, you'll get your Sneak Attack.
In fact, the only use for melee for a Rogue (aside from OAs) I see right now is an Assassin who has to conceal a dagger and head into the ball, gain the noble's confidence, pass a Deception vs. Insight check up close, and stab the guy.
Also, unrelated note, but Performance is a good source of money during downtime. I wouldn't rate it blue or anything, but black would be fair. It's definitely not red.
GladiusLegis wrote:
I don't think Arcane Tricksters MUST have a 14-17 starting Int. Because your spells known are based off a static number and not your Int you could have Int as a dump stat if you are only using your spells for buffs. If youre not worried about DC's and spell hit then you could totally have a low Int with arcane trickster.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Demosthenes2054 wrote:
Roughly around 60 dpr was what I got from a lightly optimised Rogue (lightly meaning: Maxed Dexterity and Hex).
Level 20, 20 dex. 50% chance to hit (for simpiler math, actual value is likely higher).
Single Attack (no bonus action)
1d8+Dex * .5 = 4.75
10d6 * .5 = 17.5
=22.25
Dualist Feat (bonus action TWF)
1d8+Dex * .5 = 4.75
1d8 * .5 = 2.25
10d6 * .75 = 26.25
= 33.25
Crossbow Expertise (bonus action attack, handbow).
1d6+Dex * .5 = 4.25
1d6+Dex * .5 = 4.25
10d6 * .75 = 26.25
= 34.75
No feat (Bonus action hide, shortbow)
1d6+Dex * .75 = 6.375
10d6 * .75 = 26.25
= 32.625
Shield Master Str build (bonus action prone, raiper).
1d8+Dex * .75 = 7.125
10d6 * .75 = 26.25
= 33.375
So yea. It's basicly equal damage as long as you can make use of you bonus action.
A few outliers.
Archery style from fighter 1 or ranger 2 will push up ranged damage.
OA from a friend (disonant whispers, commander's strike), or just provoking monsters will almost double the damage in melee. Though it doesn't work with uncanny dodge.
If you can't hide for some reason, then draw a weapon and TWF.
Fighter Champion 3/Rogue W/E 17 is a decent combo. Pick up a +2 to hit and a 5% chance increase to crit.
Yunru wrote:
I seriously question rating acrobatics as sky blue, and investigation as black.
I have seen acrobatics described as one of the most useless skills in the game. It no longer gets you rules-heavy benefits such as tumble. Now, what exactly can you do with it (that is highly usefule) that you cannot do without it?
As for investigation, it's used to figure out a trap and find hidden objects. If you don't have it, the rest of your party may well raise an eyebrow as to why the rogue is not doing his job. It seems like a primary rogue ability, at least as useful as acrobatics.
Mistwell wrote:
Fighter 3 is a good dip for a Lv. 17 Assassin, simply because that Action Surge attack can get doubled along with everything else. I'd definitely take Battle Master over Champion, though, regardless of the kind of Rogue you are.
It is good to choose the Weapon master feat? You could choose some military weapons like Scimitar, Whip, Heavy crossbow and Heavy artillery.
PetardoMauriti wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Sorxores wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Demosthenes2054 wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Danfmac wrote:
I'd argue that lore bards are the best at skills.
Reliable talent is nice, but adding +1d12 to your checks, and possibly -1d12 to the target makes things great. Plus, you can Jack of all trades and spells like charm, bless, or glibness
Not that rogues are too far behind though. Reliable talent is quite nice.
Demosthenes2054 wrote:
Yes but in the guidlines for creating a custom background you can sub languages for tools. So worst come to worst you make a custom background.
In fact given the rules for custom backgrounds state the only thing you're not allowed to change are the special abilities of each background (you have to choose one of the pre-existing ones), I'd reccomend only rating backgrounds on their special features (such as a Soldier's army rank).
EDIT: Now with quotes!
You might want to tweak some of the features of a background so it better fits your character or the campaign setting. To customize a background, you can replace one feature with any other one, choose any two skills, and choose a total of two tool proficiencies or languages from the sample backgrounds.
You can either use the equipment package from your background or spend coin on gear as described in chapter 5. (If you spend coin, you can’t also take the equipment package suggested for your class.)
Finally, choose two personality traits, one ideal, one bond, and one flaw. If you can’t finda feature that matches your desired background, work with your DM to create one.
Whats the obsession with using ranged weapons as a rogue compared to melee?
1. You often give whatever you are shooting at +2 AC due to cover
2. You halve your chances to get a SA via dual wielding
3. You forfeit your chance at an extra sneak attack via an attack of opportunity
4. Sometimes you need to ge thit or threaten an area to the party fighters or whatever doesn't get splattered.
5. Also depends on the rest of the party as a bard using somethign like dissonant whispers will grant you an extra AoO.
Rogue DPR calcuations are often off as well because short of being an assassin if you win initiative (happens a lot with high dex) you may not be able to sneak attack at all.
Zardnaar wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yup, and since they seem pretty independent from classes, I jumped right on it.
Do you get sneak attack damage on an opportunity attack if you've already used it on your turn?
Sneak Attack is per turn, yes. Unless the OA was because the enemy (somehow) moved away on your turn, you get Sneak Attack again (since it was someone else's turn).
IxidorRS wrote:
The advantage's nothing to do with the surprise round. You get advantage against creatures that can't see you (and likewise they get disadvantage against you).
Yunru wrote:
How well could a Rogue Multiclass with a Sorcercer?
I plan on being an Arcane Trickster but I really enjoy Dragon Sorc Flavor as well.
Not very, Sneak Attack only applies to finesse or range weapon attacks.
Which is why you could choose buffing, AOE and defensive spells.
From the Sorcerer's list O.o That thing that's about 90% attacking spells, if not more?
Roguish Archetypes are up!
No DM is going to let you cheese hide by holding a blanket up, even with mage hand.
Danfmac wrote:
Incendavis wrote:
I imagine the rules for the creation of more advanced poisons than the crappy basic with the poisoner's kit will be enumerated in the DMG. Now why they're not in the PHB when there's a whole subclass that specifically wants to play with poisons is beyond me.
Hiding: pg 177
- "You can't hide from a creature that can see you",
Therefore you can hide from a creature that can't see you.
- "If you make noise (such as shouting a warning)...you give away your position"
Giving away your position does not mean you are visible, just that the enemy knows which square you are in.
- "If you come out of hiding and approach, a creature, it usually sees you",
Therefore peeking around a corner does not break Hiding, as you are not making noise and not approaching.
Heavily Obscured pg 183
- "A heavily obscured area... blocks vision entirely"
Unseen Attackers and Targets pg 194-195
- "When you attack a target you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether ...you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see"
- "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."
- "If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, your give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
Therefore being visible determines whether you have advantage on attacks, not Hiding. Hiding is what allows you to peek out and remain unseen.
Cover pg 196
- "A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle"
Therefore the hardness or thickness of an object does not determine cover, only how much of the creature's body is concealed.
A standard sized single blanket is 7.5 ft x 5.5 ft and weighs 3 lbs as per the equipment chart. Also per the chart, a 10 ft pole weighs 7 lbs. If I sew 5 ft of the pole to the top of the blanket and 5 ft to the bottom, it weighs 10 lbs, the maximum that mage hand can carry.
This 7.5 ft x 5.5 ft blanket, when held up and kept weighted and flat with the sewed-in poles, completely conceals my character's body from view from creatures on the other side. Being unseen, I can now hide (as a bonus action with Cunning Action), and make a ranged attack action with advantage. It also grants me total cover.
Now, once I make an attack action, my location is given away as per pg 195 even though I remain unseen. As long as I remain unseen (ie hostile creature doesn't move), I can make another Stealth check in the same square to become Hidden again with my next available bonus action and then make another attack with advantage.
Therefore, The Trickster's Blanket works.
Counter to The Trickster's Blanket: You can't reposition mage hand, make a stealth check and make an attack action on the same turn, so mobile enemies are not impressed. Also, fire. Or weapons. Or a thrown chair.
Under backgrounds, you write:
Goggles of Night are awesome for any rogue that lacks darkvision, especially halflings and humans. This uncommon magic item completely obviates one of the greatest weaknesses these races have as rogues.
All rogues should carry multiple weapons to have options for both TWF and Ranged.
You get alot of versatility with minimal cost.
Like if there's nothing to hide behind (and enemies rip up your blanket), just go TWF for a second chance to sneak attack.
Or if your out in the open against a slow enemy, you can simply dash away and shoot.
Clutchbone wrote:
"You would have to step out to fire or cast a spell and then you would no longer be hidden and therefor not have advantage or be hidden."
Apply that statement to any cover, and the hidden rules don't work, so obviously that statement doesn't work.
Danfmac wrote:
Danfmac wrote:
Rogue damage really seems to be balanced around the idea that the rogue should sneak attack every turn. Two races offer very easy methods of hiding. Shooting while hidden nearly puts ranged rogues on par with twf rogues damage wise.
As a DM I would probably let the Rogue get away with a lot this edition when it comes to Hiding mid-fight and getting sneak attacks.
slaughterj wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Oraibi wrote:
Danfmac wrote:
Just remember, if your hiding behind something, a monster is also hiding behind something.
mellored wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Spells are up! Needs colors though.
EDIT: Now with colors and additional spells!
mellored wrote:
Danfmac wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
ppaladin123 wrote:
Any thoughts on the Use an Object action?
I'm debating redoing my assassin as a thief to open up my combat options a bit more. So far it looks like potion drinking and dropping caltrops are the primary things I would do with this ability.
No Conjure Minor Elementals?
You can only take it at 20, I suppose, but it could be useful. Summoning Gargoyles as a wall and to stand next to things you want to hit could be good? They have great resistances as well.
Maybe it's not worth it at 20, but consider it.
Feats are up! As always, any comments/suggestions are very much welcome.
Sharpshooter: Blue for Assassins getting close to Lv. 17, purple for other Rogues.
For feats, Ritual Caster could be worth it if you choose the bard or cleric spell list, and grab silence. Both give detect magic, illusory script (bard list) is good for spies, detect poison and disease (cleric) might come in handy for assassins competing against rivals. The cleric's various precognitive spells (augury, divination, commune) aren't bad for planning heists.
Arcane Tricksers will likely have the Intelligence to qualify for the feat, but most other rogues probably won't.
You can grab ritual caster with either 13 int or 13 wis. Most rogues will have one or the other.
I generally agree with the feat analysis. A couple of outliers.
Skillful becomes a lot more valuable after level 11 thanks to reliable talent. Though I'd probably rate it red until level 11 and black afterwords.
Keen Mind could work really well on an espionage based build. As a DM I'd give a player with Keen Mind advantage on any sort of forgery checks, from copying fake keys, making fake bounties or pardons, fake documents of noble birth, or even faking someone else's identity, including acting like the person they're pretending to be; assuming of course they had interacted with the thing they were trying to forge within the last month. Additionally, if you plan ahead, the +1 Int lets you turn an odd number into an even one. Which saves quite a bit in a point buy game.
Healer might be really good on a Thief, depending on rather or not your DM counts using this Feat as the Use an Object action.
Yunru wrote:
Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter, +6 vs. AC 19 (avg. for Lv. 17), advantage = .64
.64*(4d6+30) + (1-.36^2)(18d6)
= 83
Crossbow Expert, No Sharpshooter, +11 vs. AC 19 (avg. for Lv. 17), advantage = .8775
.8775*(4d6+10) + (1-.1225^2)(18d6)
= 83.11
So the averages there are pretty much the same, including if you give both an x2. However, Sharpshooter has a higher potential payoff for our Lv. 17 Assassin.
These calculations were without magical weapons, btw. If I were to take them into account, Sharpshooter would rocket above no Sharpshooter, since with advantage in play (resulting in a quadratic curve), you get diminishing returns from the bonus to hit without Sharpshooter.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
What he said. Action Surge and Extra Attacks are the muscle behind any top Assassin build. A little Paladin on top, you're way out alpha-striking a straight Assassin.
Or alternatively, Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Paladin 13. Bigger and more frequent smites, and Improved Divine Smite (also doubled on crit btw) makes up some of the difference from having just two instead of three attacks.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Who would've thought being a Tight@ss, would help being a RogAss ?!
Yunru wrote:
Actually 0.22 difference with the level 17 feature. And yes, it is effectively a question of swingyness. But I pose you this: Would you rather miss 19 times and then take down 20 enemies, or take down 20 enemies, one at a time? Because consistency should be favoured. And consistency favours not using Sharpshooter.
0.22 difference, whatever. Still rather insignificant.
And depends what I'm hunting. If not taking Sharpshooter still mathematically results in instant death for whatever I'm about to gank, then obviously I'd take the more consistent route. If it's something that could potentially be killed in one surprise round, but I'd need the Sharpshooter trade to do it (not unheard of since 40 extra damage points allows a LOT of monsters to fall into that category), then I'd take my chances trying to get the one-round kill. If I succeed, the rest of the party spends no resources. High risk, high reward.
It could be bad, but it could also be very, very good. Sometimes it's just worth the risk. That's all I'm saying.
If you have skuler, sharpshooter makes more sense. Since you can just keep trying till you hit.
If you have multi-attack (or crossbow expertise), sharpshooter makes more sense. Since you're less likely to waste sneak attack.
But for your run of the mill rogue, pass. Or at least pass for the damage part. Rogues can often make good use of long range and ignoring cover.
GladiusLegis wrote:
bid wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
EDIT: Or extra turns?
mellored wrote:
bid wrote:
Athletics Skill: There is an interesting factor that makes this skill worth considering: grapple. Grapple and shove checks to move or knock prone use the Athletics skill. A rogue with Athletics and Expertise (Athletics) makes for a formidable controller.
mellored wrote:
Aldarc wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Added Advantage/Disadvantage list & Handy Links.
I think from a practical play perspective, a lot of 'pure' Rogues should be considering how they're MC'ing with either Ranger 5, Valor Bard 6, Blade Warlock 5, Fighter 5, Paladin 5, or Monk 5. The problem with larger options, such as Fighter 11, is that the benefit of 3 attacks won't kick in until very high levels. But Extra Attack is really useful for making sure that a hit happens...
Defensive Duelist is dismissed with the comment, "You already have Uncanny Dodge." But the thing about Uncanny Dodge is you still take half damage whereas Defensive Duelist might result in you not being hit and therefore not taking any damage.
The relative strength of Defensive Duelist will depend heavily on how attacks are resolved by your DM. DMs who let you know that your opponent hit--"He hit's AC 14."--inform you if Defensive Duelist would save your bacon, making it a very strong feat. DMs who are more savvy and just let you know that your opponent hit--"The bugbear hits. Do you want to react?"--may make Defensive Duelist less advantageous.
Moreover, Defensive Duelist becomes more effective as you level. since it is adding your proficiency bonus.
N4M8- wrote:
May I suggest Darkness and Polymorph as spells for the "other spells" category? 'cause I think they belong in there ^_^
Seriously, though, Polymorph is pretty sweet, whether you're turning your fighter into a Mammoth, turning yourself into a squirrel so you can sneak into the badguys room and murder him (especially if you also have Rope Trick!), or just want to turn a bad guy into a frog and then cast Sleep...
Clutchbone wrote:
I agree, defensive dualist is purple.
mellored wrote:
N4M8- wrote:
N4M8- wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Not exactly sure why Observant is purple. I know in play my friends variant human rogue with 14 WIS, Expertise in Perception, and Observant (for a 21 passive perception) leaves the DM banging his head on the table more than just more damage ever would. Now that he has Goggles of the Night, his last weakness as scout is covered and we should expect to never have to worry about ambushes, traps, or secret doors ever. It is kind of funny that he has a better chance of finding something just by walking into a room than actually looking for something. Some DM's may interpret when passive can be used a bit, so probably not above blue, but useful enough not to be purple.
randl wrote:
So yea, anyways..
Defensive Dualist is better then +2 Con for melee rogues, at high levels.
mellored wrote:
It's definitely strong, but the opportunity cost for picking it up is still significant. I'd rather use the feat/ABI elsewhere and rely on Uncanny Dodge for my reactions.
Clutchbone wrote:
mellored wrote:
Spell Thief is probably slightly better than you think it is. You mentioned that your DM would require you to identify the spell, but the way the power reads that isn't necessary. Also you can theoretically steal useful spells from your allies or pay an NPC. For example, you could steal healing word to have another healer in the party, or hex or hunter's mark for an extra 1D6 damage on your attacks, or one of the paladin's smite spells. Admittedly these uses are not tremedomously powerful at 17th level and prevent your ally from using the spell you steal.
Hmm, it might even be possible to "steal" a spell somebody else casts on you from a scroll. Thus allowing you to cast the spell multiple times instead of just once.
I have to ask, what do yall think of a Familiar for AK?
Do yall know if the ability to see through your familiar is also limited by the 100 ft range? cause the ability of a hawk or owl familiar to scout seems limited in wilderness situations. 100ft seems more useful in a town/city then in middle of field of forested areas. Also what about the celestial, fey or fiendish mention, is that any stat change or just for cosemetic/RP reasons?
cowleymen wrote:
cowleymen wrote:
Demosthenes2054 wrote:
cowleymen wrote:
The night time setinal is a great advantage!!! so probably going with the owl, thanks for the inputs
Example Builds are up!
bcool wrote:
The asssassin should take +1 Dex, +1 Wis at level 10.
No reason to get +2 dex at that point.
mellored wrote:
And arcane trickster ends with Dex 19. You might as well start with Int 16, Wis 10 and do Int+2 at level 12.
bid wrote:
How well do rogues keep up compared to other melee combatants in terms of DPR? From the looks of the DPR King Candidates thread, rogues aren't even a blip on the radar.
Are they far enough behind that it's a concern?
forthrightdnd wrote:
mellored wrote:
70 To 80% sounds about right. They should be doing less straight up damage then a 2-handed melee fighter.
Rogues catch up in other ways. Like having higher inititve and going first, attacking at ranged before the enemy closes, scouting and using that knowlage to plan, using the thief's actions to drop caltrops, or mage legerman to disarm someone, or the assassins ability to simply end someone before they get a chance to attack back.
Also, rogues (and warcaster) are the only ones with full damage oppertunity attacks. So that's another avanue (disonant whispers, commander's strike, sential) to get ahead in.
forthrightdnd wrote:
Pure Rogues basically suck due to the MC'ing rules and their lack of Extra Attack. Ranger 5, Valor Bard 6, Blade Warlock 5 all give extra attack and other capabilities without compromising all that much.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
mellored wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
mellored wrote:
Okay, I've been convinced. The tradeoff in tofu-block damage is worth the versatility. Since it seems to be the new subject of discussion, how important is getting Extra Attack?
You give up two pretty strong end game archetype features for it (Death Strike or Thief's Reflexes), 2-3d6 SA damage depending on which Extra Attack you went for, possible loss of proficient WIS saves, the standard loss of one ASI, Elusive, and a lackluster capstone feature. You trade this for a fair number of relevant MC features and possibly spells. I assume EA was not included in the baseline rogue because of how trivial it makes getting SA off.
How quickly would you want to shoot for EA? Right after rogue 1? Rogue 6?
Basically, you want to get it as fast as possible with a Rogue specific caveat. i.e. Rogues get 4 skills+1 tool at the start of the game and every other class either only gets 3/grants one via MC'ing or doesn't grant one at all. So you want to start with Rogue 1, switch to the MC class 5-6, then switch back. That'll put you at the high end of the damage curve once EA kicks in and then you start picking up all the good Rogue options.
Valor Bard 6, you'll eventually have some of the best skills in the game - an extra skill, an extra tool, 3 sets of 2 proficient skills with expertise(basically all your skills+Thieves Tools), Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent.
Warlock 5 will give +2 skills(Deception, Persuasion) and Devil's Insight for super-Darkvision - this is assuming of course that we're not investing in damage, but rather being super-skilled Rogue.
Ranger 5 just gives an extra skill+increased damage, especially for Ranged Assassins - entire party stealthed via Pass Without Trace allows for surprise combats without splitting the party. Untrained Fighter with 10 Dex is still at +10 - even with Disadvantage, he's going to surprise an opponent or two.
Not sure if a Rogue will out damage a valor bard. Lore Bard seems to be a good rogue replacement but lacks damge so depends on the rest of the party.
My Valor bard I want to try out is going to take the shield master feat and have expertise in athletics. Dissonent whispers will be used to trigger AoO as well so you will deal more damage via things like that as well and you can deal more damge indirectly via things like faerie fire and knocking people prone.
Rogue is a bit better than I initially though but it is one of the easier classes in the game to replace or do without via another class.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
forthrightdnd wrote:
I've been playing a Rogue|Arcane Trickster and would like to suggest an alternate build. In my experience, Intelligence isn't that important for these characters, as you have few attack spells that require saves and the ones you do have can impose disadvantage after level 9 when you get Magical Ambush. I'd also recommend High Elf over Forest Gnome, as that prioritizes Dexterity, offers better movement, longbow weapon proficiency and the Perception skill (Gnome Cunning is useful, but Speak with Small Beasts isn't and the free cantrips cancel out.) I'd propose a character like this:
Race: High Elf
Ability Score Array: Str 8, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12
Background: Charlatan
Proficient Skills: Acrobatics, Deception, Investigation, Persuasion, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception
Level 1: Expertise: Perception, Stealth
Level 2:
Level 3:
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement: Crossbow Expert feat
Level 5:
Level 6: Expertise: Deception, Sleight of Hand
Level 7:
Level 8: Ability Score Improvement: Dex +2
Level 9:
Level 10: Ability Score Improvement: Skulker
Level 11:
Level 12: Ability Score Improvement: Int +2
Level 13:
Level 14:
Level 15:
Level 16: Ability Score Improvement: Dex +2
Level 17:
Level 18:
Level 19: Ability Score Improvement: Resilient (Constitution)
Level 20:
I might consider taking Resilient sooner in a build that starts with a 13 Con, possibly as early as level 10, as you start accumulating a bunch of second level concentration spells.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
slaughterj wrote:
mellored wrote:
Rogue 6 = 17.17 DPR
Rogue1/Ranger5 = 23.18 DPR.
mellored wrote:
forthrightdnd wrote:
mellored wrote:
slaughterj wrote:
Rogue1 /Ranger5 /Rest in Rogue
Fighter gives no useful proficiencies, Ranger gives a class skill.
Both offer Archery or TWF at level 2.
Fighter gets Second Wind (1/short rest) and Action Surge (1/long rest). Both are strong, action surge offers a stronger nova than Ranger.
Ranger gets Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, Primeval Awareness, and by far the most important, spell slots for Pass Without Trace, Silence, and Hunter's Mark.
For archetypes, you either get improved criticals (19-20) for Fighter or Colossus Slayer for Ranger, which will apply to 99% of your attacks with EA.
All of that into consideration, Ranger MC seems the stronger choice.
forthrightdnd wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
I think a case could be made for going Ranger and at some point taking a 2 lvl fighter dip for Action Surge and Second Wind.
Barbarian/Rogues make good tanks. Build around strength instead of dex and use a short sword and a shiled. Uncanny Dodge + Resistance to everything is really nice. Athletics Expertise + Rage + Shield Master is really nice. Shield Master + Sneak attack is really nice. Shield Master + Danger Sense is really nice.
Anyway I think a lot of this theorycraft is missing a big part of the equation, namely that we've hardly seen any magic items yet and that one of the rogue archetypes is capable of using magic items as a bonus action. I'm curious if casting from an item counts as Use an Object or Cast a Spell. If it's the former Use Magic Device might be one of the best abilities in the game.
As an aside. I'm playing a human rogue in AL and currently have Expertise in Stealth and Thieves Tools. I'm debating swapping the Thieves Tools Expertise for Perception as that seems like it would get more use. Plus I can bug the Cleric or Bard for Inspiration or Guidance if and when I do need to disarm a trap.
I don't want any spoilers but what's everyone's feelings on the best use of Expertise?
Varisthenes wrote:
After my conversation with Jeremy Crawford on twitter this morning I have to say the Thief is probably the worst Rogue archetype. Magical items will not fall under Use an Object. So the thief can at best drop caltrops or marbles with Fast Hands. Possibly won't even be able to drink a potion. Disarming traps and picking locks as a bonus action is so situational that it might save you once during a whole campaign, though in 20 years of gaming I've never had a DM put me in a position that two locks had to be picked in a single turn in order to survive. Sleight of Hand might be nice if you're inclined to steal from fellow party members. I'm personally not.
Second Story Work is again really situational.
Use Magic Device... well.. it doesn't work with Fast Hands so you'll probably want to leave all those scrolls, staves, and wands to the casters so they can save their spell slots while you focus on sneak attacks.
That leaves Supreme Sneak and Thief's Reflexes. Both great abilities. But taken by themselves, which you should as the other abilities are terrible, they're not worth the character level investment when you could multiclass and end up with much better abilities much earlier; or just go with Arcane Trickster instead.
To add insult to injury, the Arcane Trickster can also disarm two traps or pick two locks a turn as he can control the Mage Hand as a bonus action. He can also do it at range.
He can also learn Jump, Haste, Find Familiar, or Spider Climb on top of a large number of enchantment and illusion spells. Which basically lets you cover any of the Thief abilities that you want aside from Use Magic Device, and generally much earlier.
So for a pure rogue, there's really no reason I can see to play anything other than an Arcane Trickster. For multiclassing, Assassin seems best.
Varisthenes wrote:
Finieous wrote:
Yeah, I want to do a dwarf barb/rogue too. Mountain man treasure hunter. Shortsword and shield. Should be fun. If my groups fighter decides to rebuild for DPS I just may take over the tank role 
Right now there are a lot of people who seem to be going crazy for the Extra Attack multiclass optimization option, since that has an effect on damage output. Hooray for damage and all that. But what about a different approach? Not in regards to damage output, but supplementing a rogue's trickery and adding magical utility?
Rogue 13 (Arcane Trickster)/Warlock 7 (Archfey Patron; Pact of the Tome)
Pact of the Tome: You get to add more cantrips from any class list, including the cleric's Guidance (Expertise + Reliable Talent + Guidance = skill monkey heaven!) and the bard's Vicious Mockery. Through the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, you can also get access to the best ritual casting feature in the game, which allows you to add rituals from any class's spell list (e.g. SILENCE!). Picking up a warlock's ritual casting nets you Find Familiar as well as a potentially giant list of cleric and wizard rituals (that will only grow with more supplement books released), thus freeing up spells you don't have to cast from your already meager number of spell slots.
Invocations: You get four invocations at warlock level 7. Book of Ancient Secrets is a must for the above magical utility. Devil's Sight (120 ft. darkvision in natural and magical darkness) plus One with Shadows (non-concentration invisibility while still in dim light), and pair that with the Arcane Trickster's Magical Ambush. Then you can pick up anything else that may suit your fancy, including two more bonus skills (Deception and Perusasion), an at-will Alter Self, or an at-will Silent Image.
Spells: You don't go to 4th level spells on the Arcane Trickster, but you still go up to 4th level spells through the Warlock. Thankfully, you can also still pick Greater Invisibility through the Archfey. Plus, you also get Faerie Fire and Blink from the Archfey list, as well as other non Illusion/Enchantment spells from the Warlock list (e.g. Hex, Fly, Darkness, Dispel Magic). You only get two spell slots per short rest, but it at least allows you to pick spells that can be recharged separate from your arcane trickster spell slots. But one's Charisma and the other Intelligence? So long as you pick spells that are less stat-reliant and don't target saves, then you should be okay. Intelligence is not that useful anyway, especially when a rogue has a lot of Charisma skills anyway, so focusing Charisma could be a good thing.
Other Minor Perks: Fey Presence, and a Misty Escape teleport once per short rest.
Drawbacks: You lose out on 3d6 sneak attack, defensive survivability (Elusive), and a few situational abilities (Spell Thief, Blind Sense, Stroke of Luck) for greater spell versatility through relevant trickster at-will abilities, cantrips, rituals, and a more versatile spell list. Losing Slippery Mind is tough, but you can always just pick up Resilience (Wis) as a feat in conjunction with Observant (+1 Wis), if you want to boost the detection abilities of your trickster.
Yunru wrote:
Bah! If it ain't DPR, it ain't nothin'...
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Aldarc wrote:
Yunru wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
There is nothing wrong with attempting to determine what yields the highest DPR while still leaving a useful character out of combat.
There is equally nothing wrong with creating a more unique character that has lower raw combat statistics but useful spells and a deeper utility belt.
Can we not discuss both without feeling the need to demean or talk down to the group at the other side of the table?
Aldarc wrote:
DPR =/= participation in the combat pillar.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Finieous wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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Yunru wrote:
A Thief with Healing Feat can heal D6+4+Level as a bonus action, pretty helpful during combat.
Rogue recon can help the group spring a trap, or ambush. Can lead to different approaches to optimize combat.
AT can cast spells to help, or distract with Mage Hand.
etc
etc
DPR is the easiest thing to use for comparison, it gives a straight number result, so it is easy, objective, and straightforward.... but like math analyses, it doesn't cover a lot of important options.
Finieous wrote:
Just got more clafication on Fast Hands.
Potions will fall under using magic items. Using a healer's kit (and thus the healer feat combo) does fall under Use an Object though.
Guess if I stay thief on my rogue I'll pick up the healing feat at level 4.
Finieous wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
Theorycrafting is nice and all but my real game experience suggests that choosing between Cunning Action and TWF isn't as cut and dried.
For instance, if I miss with my first attack then yes, I'm losing Cunning Action that turn. If I hit then I can instead choose to Hide, Dash, or whatever at the cost of potentially 1d4 damage.
Additionally if the difference between having one and two attacks is from 65% to 88% and the difference between two attacks and twf is 88% to 99% then the gain from going TWF to EA is only 11%.
I'm not saying that going EA is a bad choice. But in my actual play experience Cunning Action is extremely valuable and I don't think putting it off for five levels to pick up EA first is wise.
Uncanny Dodge vs. EA I think is a much harder choice to make but on your way to gaining Uncanny Dodge you're also picking up two more sneak attack dice as well as a feat. I realize there's a feat on the way to EA as well as some other class abilities but you're pushing your first feat out to level Six in this instance (if you grabbed Cunning Action first).
At his point if you stay rogue you're one level away from getting Expertise again then one level away from away from Evasion. Then one level away from another feat.
None of this is factoring in the utility you'll be gaining from your archetype either, which will be quite a bit if you went with Arcane Trickster.
So personally, I don't see multiclassing rogue at 1 as particularly viable because my actual experience with Cunning Action suggests that it's too good to put off for five levels. If conceptually I was wanting to play a multiclass rogue/fighter for instance I'd do it at rogue 2. If my concept was just to play a rogue, I'd be fine not having EA my whole career as the class feels quite solid to me as it is.
Varisthenes wrote:
Me saying the jump was 11% was in refernce to you saying...
Assuming a 65% hit rate, you jump from applying SA 65% of the time to ~88%. With TWF, 96%.
I think we're going to go in circles past this point, so I'll only touch on two things.
You're currently taking the best of both worlds in your comparison when you talk about gaining both the increase to SA hit % and use of Cunning Action. As you're aware and discussed in your post, you either take the bonus action for CA or TWF. Acting as though the increase only comes to 8% (the difference between EA and TWF) is not a fair comparison. You lose significantly more than 8% unless you're using TWF every single round, in which case CA is not as big as it's being made out to be. In any case, the % difference overall is the relevant bit (not just SA damage), and is at best, when the pure rogue has a +1 to hit and damage and double the SA dice over the EA, 18%.
In addition, from level 7 onward with the EA rogue, you get to do both, every single turn. If someone finds the loss of Cunning Action that brutal, they can take it early at level 2, in exchange for a rougher level 5-6 (with a delayed EA/ABI by another level).
If you don't find the power gap in combat power meaningful, that's fine. In a lot of campaigns where combat is on the lower end, or you just want a tougher, sneakier rogue at early levels (and are willing to give up some of those monopolized features at higher levels), pure rogue works out great. For lots of players though, DPR is going to be one of the major ways they contribute to a party (as well as the spells/utilities/features gained by MCing, which seems to be repeatedly ignored), and dismissing that build style because it doesn't fit in with what someone else views as their idea of a rogue, is wrong.
forthrightdnd wrote:
While I understand your point, it appears I either explained it poorly or we just disagree on the value of choosing between TWF and CA after the first attacks lands. You cannot model damage that way, and using 8% in your example is incorrect, considering how to-hit and conditional damage scales heavily with one another. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on CA at lower levels. I agree it's useful, I disagree that it's invaluable.
I'm not trying to convince anyong that Rogue15/EA 5 is the be-all-end-all to rogue builds, just an extremely viable DPR alternative, one that sets a high standard. If you agree with that, in the same way I agree a pure rogue is very useful, we don't have much more to discuss.
Whether you consider yourself a rogue or a ranger at that level is irrelevant to the guide or the discussion - multiple builds for multiple classes MC 5 levels or more, and we don't base the merit of the build in question on how many levels they have in their original choice.
Edit - That last line came our harsher than intended, sorry.
forthrightdnd wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many of you play in games where the DM does not adjust the difficulty of encounters based on the outcome of previous ones? Meaning, if the party blows through an encounter without taking a scratch, does the DM make the next encounter more difficult? (Either throwing more/bigger monsters at you, or picking opponents/situations that target your weaknesses.) Or the converse: if the last fiight went badly, the next one is less challenging.
The reason I ask is that I find this emphasis on DPR mystifying: if everybody has optimized DPR, aren't you still going to end up facing challenges one way or another? This isn't WoW: you're not facing pre-determined and fixed encounters.
I mean, it's still an interesting/fun intellectual exercise to figure out DPR, and if you're picking between two choices that are all about damage output then it's useful, but how do you even beging to weigh DPR against utility? Doesn't your DP design encounters based on the character choices you make?
In 3.X we played a lot of broken DPR builds. Our DM gave NPCs lots of hit points.
It certainly happens.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
I also like how PermaStealth still exists (re: Darkness + Devil's Sight), it's just not very... subtle.
Yunru wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
mellored wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
Yes. Let me move 10' right into the Half-Dragon so the Fighter can charge on her turn and then we both definately get breathed on.
Look, I play with these people every week. I have a fairly good grasp of how they act and a fairly good idea of how they play as well as what is fun for them.
No, our marching order isn't perfect. Yes, the Cleric actually is better at finding traps then the Rogue. I used to scout but we have two hours to play so 'burst formation' is about it unless I want to slow the game way down and frustrate the rest of the table as I hog the spotlight. The other option is we each travel 10' apart (5' wide hallway) which would have let me retreat back up the hallway rather than moving into the room... I guess.
I've been playing D&D for twenty years. Some of the people I sit with are very new. The game is new for them. I'm fine with them taking more of a leadership role. I'm fine with things not being perfect. I play because I love the game, it gets me out of the house, and I get to socialize a bit.
I offered a different point of view. That Cunning Action is a very dynamic ability. That makes its value both offensively and defensively hard to model. In my personal experience it's often more valuable than making an offhand attack and far to valuable to put off picking up till level 7 if I was going to multiclass rogue/something with EA.
Would you now please stop trying to theorycraft what happens at tables you don't sit at? Honestly, between the weak permastealth strawman and the willful ignorance on how 60' of movement could possibly offer a tactical advantage over 30' of movement you're about one post away from my ignore list.
Varisthenes wrote:
Ranger(Hunter) 5. Archery Style, Multi-Attack, and a number of good utility spells. Overall it trades some of your defensive features for more offense.
Fighter (battlemaster) 2 or 3. Archery Style, Action surge + assassinate. Extra dice for more accuracy is pretty good too.
Lore Bard 3 / Knowlage Cleric 1/ Warlock 2 (beguiling influence). Because you want all the skills.
I like the Ranger combo... works well with the stealth/scout concept, decent spell interactions, and can help with archery or two weapon builds.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Edit: except it seems the mobile report button isn't working =/
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
mellored wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
tdaelin wrote:
tdaelin wrote:
"Oh good," I thought, "a bunch of new posts on the rogue thread. Maybe I'll learn something about rogues..."
Foolish me.
Elfcrusher wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
ARGisValid wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Monk unarmed attacks (and presumably weapons) do not count as finesse weapons. So Monk/Rogue is a pretty crappy multiclass :/
http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/11/04/defensive-duelist-and-savage-attacker/
Varisthenes wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
I was meaning monk weapons that aren't specifically finesse already, as mellored elaborated on. Sorry for not being clearer.
I guess it's still a viable multi-class. I've been waiting for this ruling for awhile though and was bummed it went the way it did.
Elfcrusher wrote:
Varisthenes wrote:
I'm surprised to see so much love for a monk/rogue MC after all the concern about burning your bonus action to attack. Your unarmed strike is still using that bonus action, and while it is a slight upgrade over TWF at base levels, it falls behind until Monk 5 if you picked a class that gives TWF fighting style (Ranger, Fighter). You still can't use a shield because of unarmored defense, nor can you bump up your shortsword to a rapier because of how monk weapon classification works.
As already mentioned, you're also losing a shot at applying SA dice compared to Ranger/Fighter TWF, since your bonus action unarmed strike won't qualify. The upsides to a monk MC doesn't lie in the martial arts bonus attacks or additional flurry damage, but in the various defensive and offensive features offered such as unarmored movement/defense and stunning strike. If you want to strictly compare the additional attack/flurry, you are behind at almost every turn compared to other MCs bonus actions.
I think at this point it's been well established a pure rogue is well behind most MCs in terms of DPR.
forthrightdnd wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Yunru wrote:
forthrightdnd wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
been pondering a less than optimal Rogue/Ranger multi that I wanted to hear the input on:
Already Rogue 2.
Dragonborn
Brass
Strength 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Char 14. YES I rolled the pre-racial bonus numbers. Set up camera, grabbed my dice, and filmed it first run.
single shortsword user at this point, no shield since Rogues don't get that.
Poor, no loot to sell yet for Studded leather AC. Urchin backstory.
Ranger Multi gets me Shield, Martial, and a skill right?
I am considering dual-wielding Whips after I multi to Ranger (Martial to get whip, still Melee AND Finesse for SA Dmg right?, and Reach to stay 5ft further away)
Also weighing the details of Duelist to go Whip/Shield after Ranger features and plan to use Colossus Slayer feature to build off party damage on enemies.
I can stay 5 extra feet back, as long as our Heavy hitters are in the mob.
Stupid? Maybe, and probably.
Fun? Yes, to me.
Thoughts?
Linzadar wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Linzadar wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Added my thoughts on multiclassing as a Rogue/Ranger and Rogue/Sorceror. Only Warlock and Wizard to go!
Looking at your bard multiclassing suggestions I was wondering as to your reasoning behind Thief14/Bard6. Surely Thief 13/Bard 7 is better? You only sacrifice blindsense but you gain access to 4th level bard spells. Hello Greater Invisibility, hello infinite advantage!
Lindonius wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Technically, all a bard or rogue would need is a greater invisibility scroll and a high enough roll to cast it successfully.
I would like to see some Tier guides for various classes that included synergy between classes.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Lindonius wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Lindonius wrote:
Starting Cleric gets shields.
Yunru wrote:
Lindonius wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
I'd buy a scroll and scribe it in my spellbook.
Even if this option isn't open to all players, the additional 3rd level spell slots are still a bonus for more spells cast per day, upcast at a higher level.
Clutchbone wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
They just previewed additional poisons in the DMG. Those might step up the value of the Assassin's Poisoner's Kit. The also give rules for harvesting poison from creatures with the Nature skill (DC20), this might give that skill slightly more value.
Yes, I think it does. Assassin DPS should benefit dramatically for assassinations using some of these poisons.
If you add your proficiency bonus to *use* poisons, as the text for the Poisoner's Kit reads, it should also increase the DC to resist poisons. I'm not happy with the wording of that text but I see no other way to take it.
I am also reducing the time to craft basic poison significantly (to a vial a day), although I'm fine with keeping its production cost at 50gp. Otherwise, it makes no sense for basic poison to be a part of Rogue's arsenal.
For most of the other poisons I am taking "dose" to mean a single use. I may cave on some of the cheaper injury poisons or just homebrew a d6 poison as an analogue to the basic, with a starting DC of 12 and another with a starting DC of 13. Those will be 150gp and 200gp respectively; same crafting time as basic. Cost is sufficiently prohibitive that I think the rogue won't be able to afford using poison for every encounter.
I will probably also create an arbitrary divide at about the 200gp mark for the rarity of the poisons or their ingredients. Anything at or under 200gp I will probably make available at cities with a guild presence or black market. Anything over will probably only appear once in a blue moon or on poison using or poisonous villains.
Any thoughts on how to homebrew these standard poisons is welcome.
FrankJones wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
I was looking to create a Holy Slayer. It was a Rogue kit from the 2e al-Qadim setting. The kit focused on one-handed weapons. The actual text says "A holy slayer may become proficient in the use of any one-handed weapon" and "like a fighter, the holy slayer is allowed to specialize in the use of one weapon." The basic idea is that they get up close and personal with their targets.
The closest equivalent I can get in 5e is to MC and take any of the classes that grant martial weapons as part of the MC and take Dueling.
What classes, feats, skills, whatever would be good for such a character? Are they likely to be effective in combat or is it just too hard to get surprise and advantage in melee to pull off Assassinate.
FrankJones wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Also, the new elf subrace in the recent DMG preview should be attractive for rogues, especially assassins and arcane tricksters (misty step, recharges after a short rest).
The Rogue's Handbook is officially complete... until the DMG release in a few weeks.
I've added Eladrin and Aasimar race options, a non-class tools section, thoughts on poison use for Assassins, and Warlock and Wizard multiclass options.
Thank you everyone for all your help, up till now and going forward.
New combat option in the dmg to climb on an enemy allows advantage attacking with successful acrobatics checks. Worth mentioning.
Same with Haste.
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And now I'm working out some form of Drow Rogue/Warlock. Basically a Rogue duskblade that uses Haste to get two attacks with Sneak Attack per turn.
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Right now I'm thinking Warlock 3/Sorcerer 5/Rogue 12. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. 13+Dex AC. Only shame is can't pick up a shield.
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Also despite dismissing Devil's Sight in the MC section, it is one of the greatest invocations possible for a Rogue. Darkness + Devil's Sight means unless you're facing opponents with their own Devil's Sight, you've perma advantage.
Yunru wrote:
mellored wrote:
Yunru wrote:
For example, "when Bob attacks", with Bob being next in the initiative order.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Feat Mobile might be worth taking at 12th level for an Arcane Trickster who is usually using Cunning Action to Versatile Trickster. Mobile: (+10 speed, no difficult terrain penalty Dashing, no opportunity attacks from creatures you melee attack)
I just wanted to note that Grease is probably the best spell for a arcane trickster since they can cast it where they stand, causing the opponent to fall prone when attacked, at the cost of a save, which the rogue will probably make the save of since Dexterity is the primary stat. Also, grease becomes better as the character gains expertise, making it a spell that can be used at any level. Any creature that fails falls prone, and the prone condition gives advantage to the melee rogue.
Narxiso wrote:
Nice guide. A few possibly not very sharp thoughts I had while reading it:
* I found it a little puzzling that "general consensus" says Sentinel doesn't interrupt but for Mage Slayer it's "ask your DM", when they're worded identically. When reading the rules on reactions it seemed at first they are generally meant to interrupt (since the words "instant" and "interrupt" are used, but not "sorcery"), but then after reading more on readied actions and such it seems the rule is rather no interrupting unless specifically stated, so I would guess that goes for Mage Slayer as well.
* I was also surprised that Tough is red, given that it can up your HP by about 30% at level 20 and its universal nature (unless 5th follows the "HP irrelevant at high levels" rule of 3rd to a higher degree than I had hoped). Now I admit there's likely half a dozen feats almost any character can think of to take before this, but if the guide is for general guidance rather than optimization, opportunity cost shouldn't weigh in very strongly, so... purple at worst, maybe?
* Meanwhile Dual Wielder is sky blue, but if you break it down:
1) +1 AC is nice, but only a small part of what +2 DEX gets you.
2) Using rapiers means +1 dam with each weapon, which isn't a lot, and quite possibly situational given the new attitude towards magic items: fine if your DM lets you obtain or quest for magic weapons of your choice, irrelevant if all you come across are a magic shortsword and dagger.
3) Drawing both weapons for free: nice if you often find yourself starting combat with both weapons sheathed (and especially with Assassinate) or switching roles during combat.
So basically three nice things but none of which is critical unless I'm underestimating how often the last part will give you an extra attack.
* It would perhaps be useful with a little dos-and-don'ts on magical items. I was a bit dismayed to find that the mithral chain shirt and rogues are no longer on speaking terms. Goggles of Night or a close equivalent should be a desirable low-level item for rogues that lack racial darkvision.
I hadn't looked closely at Versatile Trickster yet, but that's not Sky Blue, that's Purple, maybe Black.
The only real useful aspect of it that I can see is that you're about to ambush a target, you position the hand on top of it, then engage. If you roll high on init, you get to shoot it again with Advantage on the non-surprise round. Or that you have it float above your head out of combat so if someone moves up to you(and beats you on initiative), you get Advantage on them.
The problem is that if you have to use it for anything else, one of the following two things needs to happen:
You spend 2 bonus actions in one round, one for control and one to gain Advantage. Which is impossible.
You spend one action to position it next to someone and then a bonus action to gain Advantage. Which means no actions left to use to attack...
What are some creative ways people are using the Thief subclass' "Fast Hands" feature?
On the face of it, NOT using your cunning action seems a rather steep cost. Cunning action is what allows melee rogues to get in, slash and get out OR ranged rogues to snipe and hide.
What is it that you can gain from Fast Hands ...? Maybe my imagination of 'Use an Object' is limited .. anything 'thrown' at the enemy in the equipment section is specified to be a thrown attack e.g. Throw Alchemist Fire/Acid Flask ...
RealSeolfor wrote:
mellored wrote:
I'm curious what peoples thoughts are on the new Rogue archetype that was released through Unearthed Arcana, the Swashbuckler.
How does it fare against the other types? It reminds me a lot of the Artful Dodger from 4E. There's also a sidebar stating how much it benefits from TWF.
Added Swashbuckler archetype.
GladiusLegis wrote:
With +1 Dex, +2 Int, Darkvision 120 ft., and advantage on Stealth checks made in rocky terrain, Deep Gnomes from the EE Player's Companion make great Arcane Tricksters.
How does a Tiefling Swashbuckler look? With the Char bonus effecting Initiative rolls and all.
Leugren wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
Incendavis wrote:
mellored wrote:
this stuff is very interesting ,
I wonder ,
This material is official ? or just
an adaptation ?
The idea would be to pick up/start with Sentinel and a whip/raiper. With Swashbuckler not requiring advantage/adjacent enemies for Sneak Attack I can just sit next to an enemy and lock 'em down. Even better if I can sell my DM on the marking rules, but I'm ignoring them for now. Thoughts/Suggestions?
Yunru wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
Yunru wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
Yeah, Warlock 5 gives quite a bit for the cost. Extra Attack+Devil's Sight+Thirsting Blade+Agonizing Blast and 3rd level spells - there are going to be times where Sneak is not a possibility and at that point, 3-4 attacks is going to be pretty good, even if your Cha is only 14-16.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
I have to admit, I've never thought about a rogue with a whip before, let alone with Sentinel. It's sorta metagamey/minmaxy, but it's also a colorful concept. I like it. Would be especially cool as a Drow, but of course you'd lose out on Sentinel at 1st.
Yunru wrote:
Leugren wrote:
As long as you're here, you never responded to the Arcane Trickster's Versatile Trickster problem. It takes an action to create the Mage Hand and it takes a bonus action to designate a creature. It also takes a bonus action or regular action to move the hand.
i.e. unless your target stays still or moves to where the hand is, it doesn't do a whole lot in most combats. It might be helpful in setting up a combat, but once the combat starts, it is really difficult to actually use.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
If you have proficiency in throwing weapons that don't have the finesse property, do they still do sneak attack damage?
IxidorRS wrote: