Why be a bard? Bard's main schtick is support. Mostly offensive support by disabling enemies and letting your allies run rampant over them, but also by adding floating bonuses via your insperation. You have all the key healing spells as well, and can pick up any spell needed to fill in gaps in the party, making them rather versatile.
Goldenrod: Something you pretty much always take.
Deepskyblue: Grade A, and usually the most optimal choice.
Blue: Grade B, solid, if not quite optimal.
Black: Grade C, it passes, but don't expect much wow from it.
Darkviolet: Sitational, most of the time you should pass on this, but there are corner cases that can really make this good.
Red: Grade F, avoid. At best you just wasted your choice, but it might actually hurt you.
Picking your spells.
Bards get a moderate number of known spells. About 2-3 spells per spell level. This includes magic secrets (lore get +2 more).
I ranked all the spells individually and as you would get them, and am weighting it towards combat. However that doesn't mean you should take all the sky blue spells. You should only take 2-3 single target disables, and 2-3 multi-target disable. Particularly since many of them are concentration and thus can't stack. While Wis is usually a good stat to target, you still want to pick up a few that target other defenses. So there is room to pick up a few sitational spells to fill in any gaps in your party. Like knock if you're missing a lockpicker.
Remember to take advantage of retraining spells. Upgrade Silent Image to Major Image, Cure Wounds to Mass Cure Wounds. But don't be too hasty to trade up control spells like Tasha's Hidious Laughter, since it's just as effective on a storm giant as it is on a kobold chief (magic resist and legendary saves aside).
There is debate over weather you can retrain your magic secrets ("bard spell" vs "bard spell list"). Ask your DM before deciding. I allow it at my table.
© = concentration
® = ritual
Minor Illusion: So many uses for this spell with just a little creativity. Mage Hand: Always handy to have extra reach. Prestidigitation : Not quite as versatile as minor illusion, but still lot's of fun things to do. Vicious Mockery: The damage is pitiful, but the effect is pretty strong at low levels. But multi-attack reduces the potency of it's effect at higher level. At least you can insult people while tied up, and they damage type is virtually never resisted. Thunder Clap: An AoE is nice for the valor who likes to wade into combat. Though they still want a ranged option. Just don't use it on stealth missions. Mending: Lot's and lot's of unimportaint uses. Light: Your "human" tax. Lore bards should consider just carrying a torch. Message: Most of the time you can simply whisper, or use hand signals. Still could be pretty good for stealthy groups. © Friends: Better for intimidation or goading someone into attacking you then actually doing anything friendly. But if you want that, you should attack first. Better with changeling/disguse self/disguse kit, and a lient DM. © Dancing Lights: While fancier than normal light, it takes concentration. Blade Ward: Much of the time you could simply dodge instead. Valor 14 however let's you tank and attack. Also useful when you know there's traps around. © True Strike: The only time you would want to use this is if you where going to run up next turn and cast a big attack spell (contagion), when you know you'll have disavantage next round and only make 1 attack, or maybe possible while stealthed. But for the vast majoirty of normal cases, you simply do less damage and lose concentraion.
©Suggestion: "Help us kill your boss" not only disables someone, but adds to your allies as well. Not to mention all the RP possibilities. Though some DM's may not allow this, so check with them first.
©Heat Metal: While targeting is a bit limited, it's a no-save disvantage, with a little damage tacked on.
©®Silence: Nearly every spell requires a voice component. Particularly fun with a valor grapple bard. It also helps with stealth.
Blindness/Deafness: While generally weaker than other disables, it has no concentration, allowing you to disable more. It's also a con save.
©Crown of Madness: This takes a bit of tactical finesse to utilize well, and often only lasts 1 turn, but you then get to deny an action while also dealing monster scaling damage. Just wait until 2 enemies are adjacent and target the one who goes next in initive. Goes up with good setup and/or teamwork, such as making an enemy wizard make a melee attack against your tank, while an ally rogue with sentinel stabs him in the back, making enemy's provoke OA's while fleeing their crazy friend. You can also make it multi-turn by a friendly web, hold person, or grappler forcing enemy positions. Note that the enemy can't attack you, since it's charmed.
©Enhance Ability:A versatile buff. Note that Cat is advantage on initiative.
Shatter: Your next AoE damage spell. Scales ok with slots.
©Hold Person: Somewhat target restricitve but a very powerful disable that let's your allies freely crit or freely land Dex spells. Stays effective without new slots.
©Phantasmal Force: This has great potential, but can also be a waste depending on the player and DM.
©Calm Emotions: A very strong effect that can change a combat into a diplomatic encounter. The issue is, if just 1 enemy makes his save, it can quickly devolve into combat again. Dispelling fear and charm is helpful.
©Cloud of Daggers: Good auto-damage but small area, scales well with slots. This get's sky blue if combo with a way to immobilize (grappler, ensnaring shot).
©Invisibility: It's good utility for sneaking or scouting.
Lesser Restoration: A bit niche, but some diseases can be very nasty. Trade up to greater restoration later.
©Warding Wind: It has several niche uses.
®Animal Messenger
©Detect Thoughts
Knock
®Locate Animals or Plants
©Locate Object
Magic Mouth
See Invisibility: Fairy Fire can cover this for objects.
Zone of Truth
Pyrotechnics A non-concentraion AoE blind is certainly good. But you need a well positioned fire in the first place. Which doesn't happen without setup, and you can just use blindness more reliably.
Enthrall: A wisdom save to give disavantage to a wisdom check, just doesn't make sense. This should just be a skill (perform) check.
©®Skywriting: Animal messenger won't be seen by the enemy.
©Greater Invisibility: A rather strong battle buff, possibly gold if you're supporting a rogue, who can stab and hide.
©Polymorph: Generally you want to use this to add a massive amount of THP (Tyranosarurus Rex), to someone a friendly. You can also use it to disable an enemy, turning it into a sheep to keep it out of combat for a while.
Forcecage: No save, no concentration, no consumed components, capture. The bar version gives you plenty of time to kill it anything that you have more range against. And the box version let's your party take a short rest or construct any sort of trap. Consider simply piling rocks on top.
Regenerate: A large amount of out-of-combat healing. Also very strong in combat as anyone knocked unconscious will start of their turn, making them invulnerable unless your DM stops to attack them.
Teleport: Get you and your party out of any dangerous situation. It can be used to get into a situation as well, but it's risky. Still, casting teleport for 3-4 days in a row can still be quicker than walking.
Mirage Arcane: A Lot of uses for this, and with it's relatively short casting time and long duration.
Resurrection: Raise dead is usually enough. But who knows what else you can bring back.
Etherealness: A scouting spell that doesn't require stealth.
Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion: Most of the functionality can replicated with leomund's tiny hut. This is mostly for show.
©Project Image:
Symbol: This would be a nice upgrade for glyph of warding, except for it's component cost.
©Mordenkainen’s Sword: This is simply far too underpowered for the level.
Magical Secrets: I'm not going to list or rate every spell, just some good choices, and possibly some traps. Mostly you should use these spells to fill in a gap of the party. For instance if you have a paladin and life cleric on your team, you probably don't need any additional healing, but might need some extra blasting. Conversly, if you have an evoker and sorcerer, you probably want more support. Note the lore bards 2 extra do not count against the known spells.
Wish:(level 9): This is in its own category because it let's you cast most other spells, and is paticularly good for the expensive and long durration ones (Simulacrum, Teleport Circle). This does come at a high slot cost, but it really opens up your options.
Warding Bond: This is it's own catagory as well. On it's surface +1 AC and Saves for 1 hours is it's a weaker buff. However, it has interesting interactions with concentration checks. If you cast it on yourself, you will make 2 concentration checks at 1/2 the DC (min 10). Thus if you have +9 to Con saves (including +1 from the buff), you automaticly pass every concentration check upto 41 damage. Of course, if you have +2 to con saves, and take 20 damage, you now make 2 DC 10 checks instead of 1. So it could definatly be a trap without good Con saves. You can also share this feature, such as helping a sorcerer keep it's twinned haste up.
Shillehlegh: Melee valor bards can smack things with a stick using Cha reducing their MAD. Which then let's them take polearm master + sentinal or simply +2 Con. Magic Stones: For the ranged valor bard, this allows you to use Cha with a sling. It can eat up your bonus actions though, so it takes a bit of juggling. Remember you can use bonus actions between attacks. For instance, if you have 3 magic stones and multi-attack. Next turn, you can make 1 attack, then magic stone, then the other attack. Leaving your bonus action open for the third round.
Feats and Ability Bumps.
Since there's so many of these, i'm stretching the normal ratings a bit. Gold isn't mandatory and red isn't quite a trap.
Also, like spells, i am weighing the ratings towards combat.
+2 Cha: You could potentially take a feat or 2 first, but many of your spells do nothing if they miss.
Inspiring Leader: Slightly less HP then healer, but proactive makes it more vaulbe.
Resilient (Con): Your best spells are concentration spells. This helps keep them running and keeps you alive in general. Warcaster is better for concentration till ~level 9. Assuming an odd Con score.
Warcaster: For valor bards so they can cast "S" spells with their hands full, or insult people who run away from disonant whispers, and add to their concentration checks. Blue for lore bards who still like concentration.
Alert: Going first means you can disable enemies before they act, or get a AoE spell off before allies get in the mix.
Defensive Dualist: Valor doesnt have any competing reactions, so this is a strong AC boost. Though wait till level 8+ for a higher bonus.
Moderately Armored: +4 AC for a lore bard.
Healer: This is right up your ally as support. Slightly more than inspiring leader, but at the cost of a little money.
Tavern Brawler: An alternitive for the shield master for grapple bards. If you have an odd Str/Con. Otherwise shield master is better.
Shield Master: A key feat for the grapple bard. Blue for other bards who want a bit more defense.
+2 Dex: Initiative is nice, and helps valor with your bow attacks, or lore with AC.
+2 Con: Being alive is nice, and it helps with your concentration checks.
+2 Str: For 2-handed bards. Grapple bards don't necessarily need to max Str, since expertise adds more at cheaper cost, but it doesn't hurt.
Crossbow Expert adds a fair bit of damage when you have nothing else to do, even for lore.
Great Weapon Master: You have several spells (sleep, hold person) that grant advantage and crits. Assuming you're a Str valor bard.
Polearm Master: The Str alternative to crossbow expertise.
Ritual Caster: This can cover a lot of those "nice to have" spells freeing up your prepared slots. Suggest wizard's list.
Resilent (Wis): If you didn't take Con, Wis saves are pretty nice too.
Actor: A good option for bumping an odd Cha is good for you.
Dungeon Delver: With expertise and advantage, you can be the trap master. Red for games without traps.
Heavy Armor Mastery: This is pretty good by itself, but the prerequisite is weighing it down.
Lucky: A good all around bonus, but doesn't help land your spells.
Medium Armor Mastery: If you happen to be at 16 Dex you get +2 AC. Otherwise it's red.
Observant: For the scout in you.
Sharpshooter: Adds some damage for valor bards. Usually with swift quiver and dipping for archery style.
+2 Int:
+2 Wis:
Athlete: If you have an odd stat.
Heavily Armored: If you have an odd stat. Otherwise, medium + shield is enough.
Keen Mind: The odd bump for int, but that's likely your dump stat.
Linguist: The other odd bump for Int, but still likely your dump stat.
Mage Slayer: Even valor bards tend to stay back. Better for grapple bards.
Magic Initiate: You're going to get your choice of spells anyways, so this loses value.
Martial Adept: If you have contagion as your magic secret, faint is a good choice. Otherwise it's pretty weak with only 1 die.
Mobile: There's little reason to be faster than the rest of your party. Could be ok for scout bards.
Mounted Combat: Even valor bards don't make enough melee attacks to make good use of this. Black if you take find steed as a spell.
Sentinel: You are likely to be a target that others are trying to protect, not the other way around.
Skilled: This is weaker than usual since you have jack of all trades.
Skulker: While you can be a great scout, you don't have any way to get a damage bonus. Better with sharpshooter.
Dual Wielder: Valor has enough competing bonus actions, and lore doesn't have the weapons.
Durable: Only good if you have 19 Con.
Elemental Adept: Bards have very few damage spells, even with magic secrets.
Charger: This is bad for just about anyone past the first few levels.
Grappler: Bards can make good grapplers, but this feat isn't good.
Lightly Armored: You already have light armor. Take athlete if you're looking for the bump.
Savage Attacker: Even 2-handed valor bard don't want this.
Spell Sniper: Maybe possibly for lore with some touch attacks (contaigion), but valor has longbows.
Though: The feat itself isn't bad, but you're better off taking +2 Con for the concentration checks.
Weapon Master: If your valor, you have weapon proficiency, if your lore, you don't have multi-attack.
Example Builds:
General Stats: (both types)
Str: 8
Con: 14
Dex: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 15
(+ racial bonuses)
General Feat: (both types)
4: Inspiring Leader
8: +2 Cha
12: Resilence (Con).
16: +2 Cha
19: +2 Dex.
Support: A lore bard who starts off with 1 level of life cleric for armor, Wis saves, and guidance. And uses additional magic secrets for goodberry (+life domain = 40 HP per cast) and eldrich blast. This is probably the most optimal bard, though it's still group dependant.
Polearm: A valor who takes shillelagh, polearm master, and sentinal, while wielding a quarter staff and shield and wading into the think of things. Potentially adding a few buffs like mirror image, or elemental weapon.
DPR: A valor who starts with fighter 1 for archery style, and con saves, then get's swift quiver for lots of attacks. Eventually adding in forsight. Potentially a better ranger then ranger.
Nova: A valor who gets 3 levels of assassins and lightning arrow. Since lighting arrows can crit, and you can pre-load one, you can fire 2 off on a surprise round. Burning your 9 and 8 slot, you can deal 59d8 +4d6 sneak attack (+2xdex possibly). Though probably better to use your level 5 slots (32d8) and keep your 9th level for forsight.
Ultimate Skills: Get ALL the skills (and a lot of expertise) while still being compitent in battle. Half-Elf Rogue 1, Warlock 2 (beguiling influence, agonizing blast), Knowlage cleric 1, lore bard 6+, and the skilled feat. Eventually getting peerless skill to make you the ultimate skill master. (rogue 10 with reliable talent is a close second).
Grappler: A valor bard who uses shield master and expertise in athletics to know people down and hold them. Using Enchance Ability, or Enlarge/Reduce to keep up with the size, silence to make casters sad, animate dead or other summons to take advantage of the downed enemy, or positioning spells like cloud of daggers or crown of maddness to drag people into.
Greatsword: Not optimal, but still viable to make an 20 Str, 8 Cha bard as a stealthy half-orc with good AC and Con swinging a maul. Maul + Sleep + Half-orcs extra crit damage works early on, with buff spells like greater invisibility, polymorph, and forsight later.
Multi-class:
As with most full caster classes, multiclassing isn't worth missing out on the high level spells. However, the final few levels leave a bit to be desired.
20 : Superior Inspiration, as mentioned above, is a pretty meh ability, even if your DM allows inititive cheeze. You gain no new spells either. You gain an extra level 7 slot, which is another cast of force cage. Though if you MC a caster class you still have it.
19: Ability Score has diminishing returns (paticluarly at Cha 20), and so do feats since you took the best ones first, but there are a fair number of good choices paticularly for valor who tend to be a bit more feat hungry. Again, no new spells, but another 6th level slot.
18: Magic Secrets This let's you get wish. An extra 5th level slot isn't bad either. This loses value if you can retrain your lower Magic Secrets.
17: Level 9 spell: Your level 9 spell. Forsight is a massive boost to your best damage dealer.
Good luck Mellored, I have one in progeress as well. More work than I thought it would be.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?363601-Bardic-Lore-A-Basic-College-of-Lore-Bard-Guide
Bards are definitely more interesting in this edition than I can ever recall them being. I look forward to seeing this finished.
Did cantrips and level 1-3 spells.
I'll add colors and what not later.
I know Wish is gold for a Lv. 18 pick of Magical Secrets. Other than that, there's probably several sky blues for that feature in general (Haste, Fly, Contagion).
Problem with wisj is knowing it is cute but you still only get 1 level 9 slot per day and you have foresight which lasts 8 hours and gives you advantage all day long and disadvantage to your enemies. Wish would be great on your days off though I suppose.
Zardnaar wrote:
I don't want to sound like a pedantic pain, but please please fix your spelling! There are mistakes every other line of text, and it's a pity because the guide is otherwise very informative and well made.
The Message cantrip is better than whispering and hand signals. 120 feet is pretty reasonable, especially as you can message round corners and in Darkness. Yes it is situational but quiet comms with your rogue or party can cause a world of pain for the enemy and save lives. My friends who served in military Signals would rate it Bluef not Sky Blue. A limited range comm is better than none.
I took it with Magical Initiate for my Warlock, whose invocations- Devils Sight gave 120 feet normal vision in magical and normal darkness. It meant that she could sneak after some dragon cultists and whisper to the party.
Also message is pretty cool for valor bards that want to discuss tactics during a battle without the enemies noticing.
Unless you expect to be able to wisper in the ears of your ally while battling that orc horde, that vampire or that ancient red dragon.
As a side note Jack of all Trades also works on all the magical ability checks, this is kind of awesome for spells like dispel magic and/or counterspell (if you grab it with magical secrets).
Great start on the guide Mello! Can't wait to see the rest of it.
Finished the bard spells. Comments welcome.
Ran spell check.
A couple of notes:
Dissonant Whispers overstates the value of using up your reaction. Most weapon-using PCs should have a use for a reaction that involves a basic.
Mind Blank is sky-blue to gold because it lasts longer than a long rest. Right before going to sleep, if you have an 8th or 9th level spell slot remaining, you cast it.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Aura of Vitality is a level 3 spell, you have it listed as 4th under the Magic Secrets entry.
Thank you for this guide keep up the good work. 
Siderealmotion wrote:
Feats are up. Comments welcome.
And yea, inititive cheese.
General thoughts so far:
Confusion applies a lot of action denial regardless of the random nature and isn't as easy to break as hypnotic pattern.
Elemental adept works with magical secrets adding damage spells and could probably be up to purple from red. It's very specific in the that type of concept but not really a trap; just requires specific building to make use of it.
Blindness affects far more creature types than hold person and doesn't cost concentration; I find hold person is too situational in targets
In a first level slot healing word averages 2 hp less healing compared to keeping the action available so when healing is required in combat healing word tends to be the better choice, especially if the action that's still available prevents more healing than the difference between the two spells. Cure wounds scales much better in higher slots, but higher slots generally allow for better healing spells than either, including prayer of healing or aura of vitality. Out of combat healing options leaves cure wounds behind fast so it depends a lot on what magical secrets are available and taken. Really, we're talking about the difference between 7.5 hp plus range as a bonus action vs 9.5 hp touch and costing the action.
edited when away from my phone :-)
Ashrym wrote:
Should definitely mention Prayer of Healing in Magical Secrets. Its raw healing numbers are better than Aura of Vitality even at 2nd level, and it can be upcast unlike AoV. But AoV's healing can be distributed as it's needed, while PoH might heal some too few and others too much. Tough call which is better to poach.
When I look at that 2 hp difference I see an action for vicious mockery to go with it and prevent more than 2 damage on average. When my bard was very low heroism for a concentration effect and viscious mockery almost all the time during combat for the disadvantage on attack roll. The bonus action I had left could be used to add an inspiration die to someone or to emergency heal someone in combat because either used a bonus action.
Heroism is also still a good spell for multiple targets through higher slots. In a 4th level slot at 8th level, I had 4 targets with 5 thp that renewed on each target's turn. I picked up mass cures as early as possible, though.
Thanks for putting this together! I think that a lot of your ratings would apply equally well to the Warlock, since it's also Charisma based and there's a lot of overlap in spells (as well as the warlock dividing into ranged casters and melee gishes).
mellored wrote:
Squad wrote:
Warcaster should be much higher on the list of feats. Valor Bards will be stuck in melee and will benefit much more from casting a spell as an Opportunity Attack than Lore Bards. I've used this to cast Heat Metal (drops weapon or shield) and Hold Person (basically dead). Drawing an Opportunity Attack from a Warcaster is a deadly mistake. The best feature isn't for Sword and Board, it's for maintaining buffs. Warscaster gives you Advantage on Concentration Checks. That's good for Buffs and Debuffs, reducing the need to recasts allowing you to focus on healing and attacking.
AtomicPope wrote:
warcaster+faerie fire would be your basic combo. Faerie fire is a sky blue or gold spell for bards/land druids, blue for moon druids,Warlocks and light clerics
I am really interested in running a Str based Bard, which means heavy armor. Would you recommend first level being Cleric(life/war)?
KippleSnacks wrote:
KippleSnacks wrote:
I think a lot of the MC advice needs to be in the category of "If you hit 17-18th, by all means, start picking up things from elsewhere. And that likely means Sorcerer 2-3 for Quickened Spell. But otherwise, stay away - if you really want what Cleric gives, just pick up Moderate Armor, because taking Cleric means paying for it at every odd level and occasionally some even ones.
Or in other words, just because Cleric is by far the best option at low levels, doesn't actually make it anything above Black and I think it is arguably Purple.
Anyway, some other secrets:
Swift Quiver
Find Steed
Circle of Power
Tongues is underrated - being able to land your Mass Suggestion spell on all your targets because they can all understand you goes a long way...
Dipping Life Cleric 1 gives you more healing if you're trying to be more tanky. Getting 2+spell level extra each time you heal is pretty potent. Aura of Vitality turns into 2d6+5/round for an average of 12hp/round. Not shabby if you're looking to soak. Couple this with Valor Bard 14, and you can tank up pretty well.
One level of knowledge cleric is also awesome for the additional expertise and always prepared identify...great for a lore bard.
Really nice analysis. I'm surprised that Charm Person was rated so low. For me it's a great spell. No concentration, lasts an hour, good in a level 1 slot no matter what level the game is at. It does only target humanoids, but I still think it's worthwhile. For me it's at least a Blue, but maybe I use it more than other people do.
mister__joshua wrote:
Finished part of the MC section. For dipping anyways.
Comments still welcome.
Races are up.
Now i'm tempted to take a dip level in Cleric of Life or 2 dip levels in Sorcerer with my Lore Bard...geez.
Sub-classes are up.
mellored wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Lightning Arrow? Swift Quiver?
The healing feat is actually really good and I would look there for healing instead of dipping for life cleric as the life cleric is the only cleric that can heal worrth a damn.
Consider 1d6+4+level for healing per person per short rest outstrips most of your healing options for spells anyway. Damage prevention in 5E is usually better than healing up afterwards and by damage prevention I mean kill thigs faster. I had the healer feat as a cleric of light and it freed up all my spells to burn and the DM let me swap it when we had a new player as a thief who wanted to take the healing feat to heal as a bonus action via cunning action.
Mellored rated the healer feat sky blue and I agree with him. Most guides rate it purple or something like that. Most guides are wrong as everyone has DPS in their heads it seems and a bard will not be able to compete in that regard anyway espicially the lore bard.
utktrumpet22 wrote:
Without Hex or something like that I am struggling to see the point of swift quiver. An extra two attacks looks good but you have to be a bow bard probably a valorious bard and 4 atacks for 1d8+ dex modifier doesn't really loook that impressive to me. Haste more or less does the same thing. It also requires concentration so you can't use Swift Quiver+ hex anyway or SQ+faerie fire and if you go down that path you probably want the warcaster feat so it also easts into your favailable feats and a human bard will only have 3 feats anyway by level 10 so trying to abuse it with the sharpshooter feats also seems difficult.
Put up a bunch of magic secrets.
I disagree on Swift Quiver. While it's not for every build, in the right build it's ace.
Bards lack a consistend damage source and when I was looking for this it came down to 2 levels of Warlock or a level of Fighter with archery style and Sharp Shooter. You'll already have pretty good Dex as your secondary. With Sharpshooter a bow is potentially D8+15 with each attack, and note that Swift Quiver is a bonus action to cast and lasts for a minute (10 rounds) with concentration.
It still doesn't quite match the Warlock I don't think, but for a Valor Bard firing 4 arrows every turn of a combat it's a great ability, and also really cool looking :P
Any other thoughts or suggestions before i start adding color?
Add Conjure Woodland Creatures to Magical Secrets for reasons we previously noted regarding Pixies.
Also, for a Bard, it could be amusing to use as a RP thing to conjure a bunch of Satyrs. INSTANT FLUTE SECTION! Not really an optimization bit, though.
You mentioned dispel magic in the magical secret sections, though it is already a bard spell (you ranked it black).
Dispell/Counter Spell: You can add jack of all trades to the check, and lore bard's insperation dice.
IxidorRS wrote:
Lightning Arrow is Lv. 3, not Lv. 5.
I'd also definitely give Conjure Volley (Lv. 5) a mention for AoE damage. Radius is double that of Fireball (which means 4 times the area) along with the same height as Fireball, and 8d8 damage w/ DEX save for half actually averages out to be slightly better than an upcast Fireball (10d6) with the same slot. (8d8 = 36, 10d6 = 35)
I was going over comments and wanted to point out peerless skill is also a bonus to an ability check and doesn't use any kind of action. It's another initiative bonus if desired, and a good one. Going first with status effects is nice. Combat initiative damage bonus is generally inferior to using the bonus for a low attack roll but 4 or 5 times (once each) can be a fast burst during surprise or against a held target, for some examples. A good time to use it as damage might be on a 20 for the crit.
Oh, definitely add Reverse Gravity (Lv. 7) to Secrets for control spells. Thing doesn't even allow a save in many cases. Can also be a really high damage spell in the right settings.
Paladins and Blade Warlocks are really good to caste Haste on as well, by the way.
ppaladin123 wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
Mellored, what are your thoughts on 17 Lore Bard/2 Warlock/1 Cleric? I posted a write-up of this on a different thread ( http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4148666 ). While not optimized, I think this would provide a lot of well-rounded utility.
Mello, this is probably my favorite title for a class guide. Nice work!
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
I have a question about the warcaster/dissonant whispers combo you speak of. I thought if the player was forced or compelled to leave your range, and didn't leave it of his own free will, you dont get an OA on him. Am I mistaken?
superknud wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
mellored wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
ppaladin123 wrote:
You need 13 wis to multiclass cleric right?
slaughterj wrote:
I believe the poster said he had a 10 wis.
Gah, completely forgot about the ability score requirements.
Still though, the grappler route may still be an option.
jwade80 wrote:
mellored wrote:
jwade80 wrote:
whitishknight wrote:
Yea, I'm only lvl 4 currently, I think the next session I'll try and get some grapples in and decide afterwards whether or not it's a regular tactic that I want to really invest in. Sounds like a lot of fun though!
Colored.
Comments, suggestions and grammer nazis welcome.
mellored wrote:
You may want to mention that Spiritual Weapon is a trap for picking up with Magical Secrets. A Cha-based ranged weapon attack as a bonus action sounds sweet ... until you realize that you're a Bard and your bonus actions already should be booked for the first three to five rounds of every fight.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
mellored wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
mellored wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Grammar Nazi time:
Please go through the document and replace "your" with "you're" when appropriate. There are numerous instances of this error and each one is a dagger in my eye.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
ppaladin123 wrote:
You may want to take another look at Plant Growth. Considering the Bard's focus on control and support, it's a subtly awesome spell. I wouldn't take it over Hypnotic pattern, but it gives you all sorts of battlefield manipulation in a non-concentration form. Nobody who can't fly will ever escape from you or catch you ever again, and you can essentially wall off entire areas of the battlefield to prevent people from flanking your squishies.
whitishknight wrote:
Siderealmotion wrote:
mellored wrote:
I noticed you added paladin smite spells to magical secrets. It is worth pointing out that are concentration spells and there is some heavy consideration in spell selection if adding them.
Siderealmotion wrote:
updated the colors, hopefully that's a bit more readable.
I understand that bards, especially Lore bards, seem to suffer from low at-will damage options. Besides muticlassing to warlock, is there any other options? Would the Magic Initiate feat be of help at level 12 for a competitive cantrip?
whitishknight wrote:
whitishknight wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Gruff_Ironfist wrote:
My 2gp feedback. Currently playing a valor bard at level 9, my other half she played a lore bard so I can draw some comparisons.
Bardic damge overall is goign to be low. I suppose the valor bard could upgrade to a two handed weapon. Splashing 2 levels of warlock will deal more damge.
My bard still deals a moderate amount of damage via the shield bash feat thogugh around 20 per round. The bard is excellent with the shield bash feat as you can take expertise in athletics, cast enhance ability on yourself and you are proficient in dex saves to avoid being nuked by AoE spells.
The way my bard deals a lot of damage is indirectly via the others. I have a rogue and a great weapon fighter in the party so knocking people prone is a great way to deal ore damage indirectly as the GWM fighter swoops and and sucks up the -5 penalty to hit. I normally give inspiration dice to that fighter to enable her to do that as well.
Another trick is using dissonent whispers the spell deals 3d6 damage and if they flunk the save you trigger an attack of opportunity which enables more damage with the rogue and fighter. Dissonent whispers can also trigger an attack from you and with the war caster feat that can be a spell like hold person/monser or whatever.
Spell selection als matters as bards can take thunbderwave and shatter which are not brilliant at damage it is the best they have. Lore bards can take fireball and other spells mlike that at level 6 my valor bard at level 10 will likely take destructive wave and maybe haste.
An archer valor bard can take swift quiver and combine it with the sharp shooter feat.
Also you can enable more damage via spells like Faerie Fire, greater invisability on someone who deals lots of damage and even destructive wave can deal 10d6 damge and knock them prone enabling damage from great weapon fighter types.
You kind of need the warcaster feat though for the valor bard at least (I have that+ shield bash feat). Valor bard inspiraiton dice are best yosed to add a bonus to an attack roll, a bonus to a saving throw or as a reaction to increase your AC and cause an attack to miss (treat them as a shield spell in effect).
I have not tried it but a valor bard using spells like faerie fire or invisability, greater invisability etc to enable advanatage using the reat weapon master feat could actually do decent damage. Spell selection will have to revolve around enabling yourself though- faerie fire, dissonent whispers, invisability, greater invisability, haste, etc.
I have not seen a high damage bard in action though and it is only theory crafting at that point. My bard usually deals around 1d8+5 damage with advnaatge on 2 attacks via the shield bash feat (+12). I lucked out though and got the gauntlets of ogre p[ower from the LMOP otherwise try ands get 16 strength/cha at level 1 or buff strength to 18 and make do with 14 or 16 cha.
Also chang ethe way you think about damage. If an inspiration dice enables a hit that would have otherwise missed count that as the bards damage. If you grant advanatge and enable other treat some of that as your damage as well at least in your head and you will notice the bard is actually doing a lot of damge indirectly. Party composition also makes a huge difference and by that I mean a rogue, great weapon maste ror a sharpshooter type PC.
Gruff_Ironfist wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Is it just me or does this guide read less as a guide for all bards and more as a guide for just valor bards? Even the advice for lore bards in the guide seems to presume that lore bards should aspire to be valor bards.
Aldarc wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
you play it like a valor bard with no armor, but more skills and cutting word. I.e. stand in the back.
But i'll put up a sample build.
Lore bard is warcaster at level 1 if human followed by stat boosts to 20 charisma ASAP. After that it is really resilient feat and then you have the option of any feat. At least if you want to be optimized.
If you are not human your feats are selected for you until level 16.
IMHO of course.
Zardnaar wrote:
Aldarc wrote:
Added a sample lore bard, and yea, he dipped life cleric 1.
Reworded the valor and lore parts a bit. Hopfully that's more clear.
Feedback is still welcome.
I always have bard feedback. :D
Tasha's Hideous Laughter annoys me. I find it ends quickly because the target makes a new save with advantage every time it takes damage so it's best use is removing something from combat and not attacking it until other targets are dealt with.
Defensive duelist does have competing reactions if the bard is planning on adding his or her own opportunity attack to dissonant whispers or other similar effects. It's a bit of a double edged tool with lore bards in particular because cutting words also uses reactions so it can replace cutting words in some cases to make it last longer or after inspiration dice are all gone, but using it means cutting words is also not going to be available.
The paladin 2 splash is a good splash because it has a similar effect to cleric 1 in the armor and additional spells available but it also adds a fighting style, can be used with the few offensive paladin spells because of a shared casting ability score, and opens up smite burst damage for the bard regardless of subclass.
Ashrym wrote:
What's the consensus on multiclassing into Wizard for 2 levels? I've read this guide, and the guides on Cleric and Wizard, and there's little in the way of Bard/Wizard multiclassing.
I see the benefits of having Spellbook and Wizard Ritual Casting, which are both superior to the "spells known" format of the Bard. I also think Portend is good enough for a Multiclass.
I guess it depends on whether your DM thinks you can use Bard spell slots for Wizard spells, and how often the DM drops scrolls/tomes/whatever. Is there an official ruling on this via Twitter?
Relevant Spellbook text below (emphasis mine):
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell
of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is
of a level for which you have spell slots and if you can spare
the time to decipher and copy it."
I currently have a Knowledge Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6 I've been playing, and Spellbook, Wizard style Ritual Casting and Portend look really, really great in addition to being thematic for this character.
I'm not giving up the 9th level spell slot at Bard 17, and I'm not too hard up for another Feat or ABI, since we rolled stats and we're all on the high end of abilities.
Thoughts?
OfficerRando wrote:
mellored wrote:
OfficerRando wrote:
mellored wrote:
OfficerRando wrote:
Thanks Ash!
It's not as great a I initially thought, but, you can't turn down basically "free" access to more rituals!
EDIT: Wrote up a thread asking this question in the Rules Forum, here: http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4172131
Looks like the "tummy feels" of the community at large says no, you cannot do this, with no rules support as to why not.
EDIT 2: Just cleared it up via a leaked 5e FAQ and Errata.
OfficerRando wrote:
Aldarc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
Need an opinion from you fine folks.
A friend is running a One-Shot for 10th level characters, and since I have no idea what everyone else is going to bring, I'll bring a Bard, favoring Lore over Valor due to personal taste.
Straight Lore Bard 10 is obviously an option, but it's missing a few things I want
- Medium Armor and Shields
- Guidance
- Eldritch Blast
So I figure my options are:
- Go Lore Bard 10 and use Additional Magical Secrets to snag Guidance and Eldrith Blast
- Play a variant Human and take Moderately Armored
- Have 5th level spells
Or:
- Take one level in Cleric
- Take two levels in Warlock
- Have more versatility, but not 5th level spells. (Only 5th level slots)
There's some other pro's and cons (Having Wisdom save proficiency over Dexterity save proficiency), but really it boils down to having 5th level spells (Contagion, Conjur Volley, etc.) or not expending Magical Secrets on cantrips.
What do you guys think?
I don't think any of those options is particularly poor, but missing spells known, bigger inspiration dice, expertise in 2 skills, and 1 ASI from MC rules is a pretty big drawback when you give up higher level spells known for almost the same number of lower level spells added. The cantrips are still restricted to 2 dice and guidance is pretty much overkill on skills with the bard. Guidance also requires concentration so would interfere with longer duration spells. I would just go human lore bard 10 with medium armor from the bonus feat, forget guidance because it's not worth it, and maybe take eldritch blast using secrets but at 2 bolts a magical weapon can still work well enough, and then have room for a 20 CHA instead of 18.
Ashrym wrote:
OfficerRando wrote:
What's the rest of your party?
If you got a good front line, constituion saves are less needed. But so is armor.
Also, you can go a straight 10 lore bard, and still grab medium armor, guidance, and eldrich strike.
Added concentraion and ritual tags.
OfficerRando wrote:
No mention of Elemental Weapon for Magical Secrets?
Yunru wrote:
It's situational but yes, in some cases. Very tasty when paired with Elemental Affinity, but by itself I guess it depends on how magic item heavy a game you're playing.
mellored wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Edit: I'll mention it in the multi-class sorcerer section.
Two comments
1. For Lore Bard magical secrets, it says in description that spells gained don not count against spells known. Unlike Magical secrets gained at higher levels.
2. If planning to multiclass from Wild Sorcerer to Bard for 3 levels only to gain more spells (main reason) and some armor, which route would be better, Valor or Lore and why? I was thinking Valor for medium armor, but cutting words keeps drawing my attention. But Sorcerer does get a similiar ability with Bend Luck which costs 2 sorcery points. I would like medium armor and would already lose a feat with dipping into Bard.
I am currently a 6th level Wild Sorcerer with feats Ritual Caster (human variant) and Alert.
ScuroNotte wrote:
mellored wrote:
ScuroNotte wrote:
I'm curious what bard spells would be the driving force behind a sorc dipping 3 into bard. But from an armor + spells perspective, yeah, valor.
Eggnogfool wrote:
Eggnogfool wrote:
ScuroNotte wrote:
mellored wrote:
you made valid points and Valor Bard is the right choice.
Thank you for your help/insight
Much appreciated
ScuroNotte wrote:
mellored wrote:
General question. I understand that you can add 1/2 proficiency to any non proficient skill/ability like initiative. Does it also work for weapons you are not proficient in (if any)?
Nope. Attack rolls are not ability checks.
DaveDash wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
Though i guess i should say, IMO: Life Cleric 1/Lore bard 19 is probably the most optimal build.
Picking up goodberry and eldrich blast as your additional magic secrets.
Of course, it depends on the party.
Yunru wrote:
Regarding cutting words used against damage rolls, does it decrease damage by the roll or total damage dice?
DaveDash wrote:
mellored wrote:
[quote="Ashrym"]Bard subclass is almost irrelevant as far as swift quiver goes.[/quite]Valor get's martial weapons.
Though if you dip for archery style, then lore potentially comes out ahead since you also get armor.
If you don't dip archery style, then a 4d8+cha spiritual weapon (23 vs 19) will do more damage without being MAD.
(without concentration. shorter range, even more with crits).
The bard could push that a bit further by taking shillelagh
mellored wrote:
OfficerRando wrote:
Does Jack of All Trades affect the Spell Casting ability number? And if so, does it increase your Spell save DC and Attack modifier?
Nopr. They're not ability checks.
Ashrym wrote:
ScuroNotte wrote:
ScuroNotte wrote:
ScuroNotte wrote:
+4.5 
>.<
LOL.
IMHO, a Lore Bard with a single level dip into Cleric (Life) is a great start to a build.
You get heavy armor, and you get a bonus to all your Cure spells. Pretty sweet!
I'm currently loving playing my 7th level Human Lore Bard (4), GOO Warlock (2), Life Cleric (1). I have an excellent array of trained skills, a few bonus languages, and medium armor and shield proficiencies. He could certainly be more optimized, but he has a ton of utility.
Feats: Actor and War Caster
AC: 18 - Breastplate w/ +2 Dex mod and Shield
Eldritch Invocations: Agonizing Blast (Cha to Eldritch) and Mask of Many Faces (Disguise Self as Cantrip)
Spells - with mix of classes, have a good bit of extra cantrips:
0 - Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion, Hex, (Disguise Self)
0 - Cleric: Guidance, Mending, Spare the Dying
0 - Bard: Mage Hand, Prestigitation, Vicious Mockery
1 - Warlock: Dissonant Whispers, Tasha's Hideous Laiughter
1 - Cleric: Command (Domain), Identify (Domain), Detect Magic, Sanctuary
1 - Bard: Healing Word, Faerie Fire
2 - Bard: Hold Person, Invisibility, Silence, Suggestion, Detect Thoughts
Eldritch Blast does 2x 1d10+5. Lots of controlling and utility spells, can disguise myself very well both magically and naturally, and communicate telepathically via Warlock patron. I can perform well solo or in a group. I picked up Thieves Tools so that I can also serve as a trapmonkey.
Next level I'll recoup all Inspiration points upon a short rest. Progression is certainly behind that of a pure Bard, but the only thing I'm really losing out on is the last Magical Secrets - arguably a fair trade off with the added spells from Cleric and Warlock - and a feat/attribute bump.
Found a very nice nova for bards.
Valor bard 18/Fighter 2, with archery style, lighting arrow, and wish (simulacrum), disintigrate, and foresight.
Pre-cast simualrcum, foresight, lighting arrow, and use an insperation die on/for your simulacrum.
1: Attack 16d8
2: Bonus action charge another arrow.
3: Multi-Attack 14d8
4: action surge scorching ray 14d6.
And then your simulacrum does the same (though without foresight, so probably disinitrate instead of sorcing ray).
@mellored Read my character Backstory I wrote the other day. Tell me what you think.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4191446
Noctaem helped with some revisions.
HermanTheWize wrote:
mellored wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
One day the world will know of 4.5 and the great battle that continues to this very day. 
Note: Saw this and liked it. 
>.<
HermanTheWize wrote:
Lately I'm loving a lot Fire Shield (picked with magical secrets) on my valorous bard (level 13 currently), way more than what I suspected at the begininng.
As a precastable no-concentration spell is fantastic since it gives one free resistence to common damage types (and scorcing rays, fireballs and cone of colds are tossed a lot during this level range).
And the damage is much more useful to me than a wizard or a sorcerer since as a valorous Bard I have more staying power than the other arcane spellcasters, thus dropping me in melee become more problematic for the enemy: I keep casting my control spells and if the enemies reach me in melee I often go the offtanking route with Blade Ward to keep my current concentration spell up.
It's working great.
Any spell worthy of magical secrets in the new supplement? Some of them look pretty strong.
Magic Stone + Eldritch Blast for valorous bards that want to be a CHA-powered machinegun full-time.
Can't say the other spells strike me as magical-secret worty.
Investiture of stone, maybe, if you want to play an off-tank (at least you would use it better than the other arcanes)? The at-will prone effect could also help grabbing builds, maybe?
As a side note Thunderclap (now on bard list) is a nice addition for melee valorous.
diplomancer wrote:
Updated.
Also tossed in vitrolic sphere, since that's decent AoE damage.
I still believe that magic stone is worth mentioning.
If Shillellagh is an interesting option for melee Valorous, then Magic Stone is just as good for ranged Valorous.
Dark_Kain wrote:
It's still one every 3 rounds and you can start battle with the spell precasted. It is manageable.
I mean if it is precasted you probably need to expend one bonus action on the spell in the entire battle.
Dark_Kain wrote:
Any other spells people think i missed?
mellored wrote:
added bones of the earth to magic secrets as well.
non-concentraion restrain aganist 6 targets is pretty solid. assuming you have a ceiling.
Dark_Kain wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Sadly true. It is still a fun spell, and I love the imagery.
Kalani wrote:
mellored wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Dark_Kain wrote:
diplomancer wrote:
I know, I wasn't disagreeing, just putting my thoughts out there to see if they made sense. I've seen some people talking about a Melle Str Valor Bard (not necessarily in this thread), and it just didn't see a good idea to me. As I am still new to this edition (last edition I played was 2nd), I wanted to know if there was anything I was missing.
It is good to know that the foremost Bard expert agrees with me on that (I mean that sincerely, I loved your guide, even if I still feel Lore Bards are better) :p
diplomancer wrote:
For most classes Dex > Str. Unless you grapple
diplomancer wrote:
I just wanted to add in, in my opinion, the best Level 10 MS option is Circle of Power. It is legitimately terrifying. A Paladin-only spell, it gives all friendly creatures within 30 feet advantage on all saves against spells and magical effects.
But it gets even better. It also functions as Party-wide Evasion, but not just for Dex saves--for ALL saves. Failed save = 1/2 damage, successful save = no damage.
Seriously, did the designers realize Bards got this 7 levels before Paladins?!
Matau99 wrote:
diplomancer wrote:
Drow Elf: For lore bards. Darkvision, +Cha, and a few extra spells per day. The sunlight sensitivity doesn't hurt spell casting but will hinder valor bards too much.
The sunlight sensitivity hurts spellcasting, if the spell has an attack roll.
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Hephalumph wrote:
©Crown of Madness: A powerful effect, but you need to watch initiative order to get any use from this, and even then it's usually only good for 1 round before the enemies spread out. There's potential with good setup, and possibly a web spell.
I'm finding this spell to be more useful than I first anticipated. I took it as a "trap option" on my trap build bard experiment and it's surprisingly similar to dissonant whispers and compulsion as a tactical spell because it either denies actions for damage or it forces the enemies to move and trigger opportunity attacks.
It also applies some soft control to prevent the target from moving towards enemies, and if you continue to select an enemy for him to attack it can keep him away from a PC fighting that target, in the attempt to save that particular PC some hit point damage.
The charmed condition means the target cannot attack the spellcaster either (without a save at advantage), and in the case of a lore bard who does poor damage to start with it's not much of a loss (possibly an improvement) to have the target do more damage than the bard would have.
From what I find, the bard picks the most likely target, preferably where there is good concentration for opportunity attacks, the target loses it's next action and inflicts damage on one of it's allies, movement either happens or it doesn't (it doesn't matter which), and opportunity attacks ensue. If the movements took place then the bard simply drops the spell on his next turn or determines some niche reason why it's worth maintaining but typically drops it and continues. The spell has been effective up to that point regardless of whether the bard maintains it or not. If the target is still within range of one of it's allies then maintaining the spell costs that creature another action and inflicts damage again exactly as before but without the need to spend another spell slot.
It's deceptively better than it first looks playing the opportunity attacks angle and knowning when to cast it, and when to drop it. Now I realize I usually want the enemies to move and spread out, so that's the reason to cast it, and if they fail to comply the consolation effect is still pretty good.
Ashrym wrote:
Haha....
grapple bard + crown of maddness. Grab the enemy, and drag him around after his allies.
mellored wrote:
Moved it back down to blue.
mellored wrote:
I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but I didn't see it mentioned in the guide.
The Paladin ultimate smite spell (Banishing Smite) doesn't seem to have the "melee" requirement that other "Smite" spells have, meaning it might be a pretty good option for a Bow using Valor Bard to take at 10th level. It's a pretty nasty spell, adding 5d10 damage and a no-save "maze" style effect.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
I would have a hard time spending a 5th-level spell slot on most paladin or ranger spells given alternatives from the bard and other lists. Destructive wave or circle of power, maybe, but when spells like animate objects or hold monster came up at 9th level access to more 5th-level spells is variety over potency at 10th level. Just putting that out there for a bit of perspective. ;)
Ashrym wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
I guys, I choose to roll a bard in my group cause we had a ranger, a cleric and a fighter; due to the lack of rogue and wizard I rolled an half elf dexterity base lore bard to be able to disarm trap, scouting stealth and so on. I really like the character I'm the face and the skillmonkey of the group and the support I give in combat is extraordinary good thanks also to the fact that I made very good rolls to create it , al 4 level in bard I maxed out the Cha to 20, dex 18, con 16, wis 14, int 12 and bumbed str to 10.
Now I'm Bard 4/Warlock 2, I went warlock cause the other characters were not so optimized and I really need some decent damage output; at this point the others characters are decently optimized thanks to my suggestion too and I can explore my full role of support.
I suppose the campaign will end at 11-14 level and I've a doubt: is it worth to go warlock 3 to take pact of the tome and book of ancient secrets and then full bard for all the other levels?
In this way I could take Guidance, a couple of other cantrips (shocking grasp and mending), the 2nd level slot and potentially ALL ritual spells of 1st and 2nd level to best support my group out of combat too and I can increase my scouting role with find familiar.
Obviously I'll slow down my casting progression of another level.
Numenero wrote:
Well, I was in doubt that Warlock 3 could slow too much my progression in the spellcasting, but Warlock 5 will kill it completely If the campaign will end at 14 I will have the 4th level of spells, maybe the 5th.
what 4th and 5th level bard spells do you want?
mellored wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
mellored wrote:
Edit: Badly, given the CR restrictions.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
mellored wrote:
For Adventure’s Leage, a purely healing/utility bard that assumes at least 2-3 melee in the party. I could use some help choosing spells and some tweaking with the build. I am still thinking about the half elf instead.
Race: Human (Variant)
Background: Entertainer
Alignment: LN
Life Cleric 1 Lore Bard 19 (Start with Cleric for Wis saves)
Armor: Chain mail (Lv. 1) -> Plate (as soon as can afford it)+Shield
Point buy array: 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8
Attributes and feats:
Lv. 1: STR 8, DEX 8, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 16, Inspiring Leader
Lv. 4: STR 8, DEX 8, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 18, Inspiring Leader
Lv. 8: STR 8, DEX 8, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 20, Inspiring Leader
Lv. 12: STR 8, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (CON)
Lv. 16: STR 8, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 18, CHA 20, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (CON)
Lv. 19: STR 8, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 20, CHA 20, Shield Master, Resilient (CON) (I was thinking of a feat instead of the 20 WIS)
Magical Secrets is where I need help choosing my last 2.
So far I have
1 Goodberry
2 Aura of Vitality
3 Counterspell
4 Circle of Power (which requires a concentration, I don’t know why it says in the guide that it doesn’t. Was there an errata?)
5 Magic Jar
6 Foresight
7 Wish
Wis save spells are really great with this build.
Thoughts? Ideas? Anything is appreciated.
Moardie wrote:
I absolutely adore your guide. I've learned a lot of you, Treantmonk, and Professor Q!
While I absolutely love your guide, I have one point I would like you to consider.
The fact that technically speaking you CANNOT re-train your Bardic secrets. With that in mind, it really adds a lot more weight to the spells you choose. It's pretty clear in the PHB (I wouldn't say absolutely clear) and it didn't come up in the errata. It's just something I really think you should consider.
I was wondering if I could get some feedback on my spell list! however, before we get started. A couple of things I want you to know about how I'm running him, and how I play overall.
I've taken the Actor Feat, Mask of Many Faces, and Tongues, and I know how to rollplay my ass off. "MY NAME IS JAK, OF HOUSE BAENRE. I WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS INSURRECTION, LEST IT BE THE DEATH OF YOUR HOUSE. SO IT SHALL BE, A DUEL THEN. SWORD? OR SONG?"
I'm aiming for Bard 17, Warlock 3 GOO. (Realistically, Bard 12, Warlock 3)
This is my current spell list, and I'll explain some of my choices.
- Cantrips: Eldritch Blast (Reppeling Blast), Frostbite, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Vicious Mockery
- Lv. 1: Bane, Charm Person, Disguise Self (as an Invocation), Dissonant Whispers (Warlock), Healing Word, Hex
Bane is one of my absolute favorite spells. It's my go to "we're starting our adventure spell". Pop a Bane, wait and see what comes out of the wood work. Either blind the biggest threat if I'm playing with a lot of melee, or Dissonant Whisper him if he gets to close to me and the backline.
- Lv. 2: Blindness/Deafness, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion
Phantasmal Force sees a lot of contention at different tables, so my go-to is to "place" the creature inside an Iron Maiden, and slam the door shut. If the DM lets me restrain and blind him? Hizzle yizzle! If I can only pick one condition, I'd prefer restrain, but I'll settle for Blindness too.
- Lv. 3 Counter Spell, Hunger of Hadar (both with Magical Secrets), Hyonotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hit, Plant Growth, Tongues
Hunger of Hadar is my go to spell if I'm grouped up with a lot of Fireballs. It's beautiful to vanquish your foes in a wave of Darkness and Fire. Hypnotic Pattern is my go to in a melee oriented party. What also seems to work out great, is how Hunger of Hadar works well when I'm with Mages, but it's also great at controlling mages! Same goes with how Hypnotic Pattern helps enable my melee buddies, while also shutting down their melee. Plant growth is just so goddamn sexy when you can get it off. "Every enemy within the 100ft radius? Yeh 15-20ft radius plant growth around them please, (repelling blast anyone?)
At Character Lv. 9 I'm going to take Bard 7, swap out Phantasmal Force for Confusion, and take Polymorph.
Confusion is primarily going to be used as an alternative to Hypnotic Pattern, when I'm against enemies who can't be charmed/ are difficult to charm. Polymorph? Turn that BSF into a t-rex, and do everything I can to make his day oh os fun.
At Character Lv. 10 I'm going to take Warlock 3, taking, Chill Touch, Guideance, and Ray of Frost as my Tome cantrips. I'll be swapping out Charm Person with Phantasmal Force, and be taking Mirror Image
My cantrip list now is so versatile that for whatever the situation or enemy, I have a go to cantrip, while I'm concetration (and popping healing words)
From here on out, it's Bard all the way.
So Character Lv. 11/ Bard 8 I'm going to take Freedom of Movement, and that's when my Charisma will be 20.
Freedumb of movement is for my MVP BSFs who want to wade into Plant Growth.
At Bard 9, I'm taking Geas, and swapping out Leomund's Hut for Mass Cure Wounds.
Bard 10, I'm taking Ice Storm, and Transmute Rock
Between Transmute Rock, Plant growth, and Reppeling Blast enemies will NEVER HAVE A CHANCE TO MOVE. It's also why I'm taking freedom of movement, throw it onto my MVP melee buddies I play with. Also, throwing Hunger of Hadar ON TOP OF PLANT GROWTH/TRANSMUTE ROCK? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
At Bard 11, I'm taking swapping Suggestion with Mass Suggestion, and taking Otto's Irresistible Dance.
At this point, I honestly don't know how things are at this tier of play.
Finally at 12, I'm going to take the Alert feat. For a sexy +11 initiative, slam bam thank you 'mam. I will (ALMOST) ALWAYS get my major CC off before anyone even blinks!
I would absolutely love to hear your input. Thanks so much for your time, and your lovely guide.
bid wrote:
Moardie wrote:
ZenWatuchie wrote:
mellored wrote:
Quite enjoyed the guide and found it to be very illuminating for a newcomer to the 5E system. Many thanks!
bid wrote:
mellored wrote: