I have read many threads that discuss the Two Weapon Fighter(TWF) as being underpowered as far as DPR at higher levels, and that it is a poor choice. There are a few major benefits that most do not consider which I would like to discuss. Next, I'll go over a brief DPR analysis and I would like to get your thoughts.
1. When using your ability score improvements to max out Dex instead of Str, you also gain the additional benefit of better AC
2. The feat defensive duelist is an incredible benefit adding your proficiency to AC(as a reaction). +6 is not too shabby with the "Bounded Accuracy" concept. – Only applies if you allow feats.
3. Probably one of the most under discussed aspects of fighting with two weapons is that, at higher levels, you are fighting with two ENCHANTED weapons, probably with Bonus elemental dmg; fire, ice, etc. not just one. This will come into play in the DPR analysis.
DPR TWF vs GWF (Battle Master):
Let's assume for the sake of argument that each fighter has maxed their ability bonus (+5) and has achieved 4 attacks at lvl 20. Both are using enchanted weapons +3 and the weapons do an additional 1d6 elemental (fire damage). The combat will only go 1 round and the fighters will burn through their Maneuver Dice with Menacing Attack to do an additional 1d12 damage per hit. For simplicity, the fighters will “Hit” every attempt. Last but not least, I will assume that the average roll on a D will be 50% i.e. I will assume that a D6 will do an average of 3, d12 = 6, etc.
TWF – Scimitar (1d6)+3(Weapon Enchantment) +5 (Dex) = 11 + d6 elemental = 14
Attack 1 – 14 + Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 20
Attack 2 – 14+ Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 20
Attack 3 – 14+ Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 20
Attack 4 – 14+ Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 20
Bonus Action Attack – 14 + Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 20
Total = 100 Dmg
GWF – 2d6 weapon +3(Weapon Enchantment) +5 (Str) = 14 + d6 elemental = 17
Attack 1 – 17 + Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 23
Attack 2 – 17+ Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 23
Attack 3 – 17+ Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 23
Attack 4 – 17+ Battle Maneuver “Menacing Attack” d12 = 23
Total = 92 Dmg
The GWF can reroll 1’s and 2’s so that needs to count for something. Even if you bumped the 2d6 Dmg average to 8 instead of 6, it brings the total to 100 Dmg instead of 92.
It appears to be a wash. Yes the TWF has to sacrifice the bonus action but the flip side is a much better AC. I could be way way off base with this analysis which is why I am submitting it. Please tear it apart. On the flip side, I would submit that a TWF/Veng Paladin would be a good candidate for the DPR King thread. The stats go insane adding +2d8 per hit for oath of vengeance and 1d6 Hunter’s Mark, not to mention being able to attack with advantage.
Batla76 wrote:
Also you're discounting Great Weapon Master.
I included Battle master dice for GWF and TWF for the one round. When you run the stats, please do so with magic weapons, this is a HUGE deal for the TWF because with that extra "bonus action" attack you get by using TWF, you get the extra weapon damage from the enchantment that the GWF is not getting in a bonus action.
FrogReaver wrote:
You get an extra attack with pole arms as well.
Using the great weapon master -5 Attack and +10 dmg with a +3 weapon will be more beneficial toward the polarm fighter than it will be with your two weapon fighter.
That is not completely correct. i.e. Hazirawn Hoard of the Dragon Queen +2. and that is a low level module. In beta, many items were listed as +2 or +3 but it seemed to cap at +3
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Batla76 wrote:
Yes, in this case good point. Agreed on the DPR. But a 25% less chance of hitting -5 Atk might skew it a bit. I don't think my example would end up as the best all around DPR but having a very good DPR and great AC seems to warrant a second look.
FrogReaver wrote:
What ac are you achieving?
A str fighter in plate gets 18. It's hard to see the two weapon dex guy getting more.
I guess that the point that i'm trying to make is that I can't see any way that weapon stats would cap at +1 up to lvl 20. They went to +3 (back during beta which we are no longer playing) so there is no reason to assume that they can't possibly ever be introduced. The weapon bonus and enchantment is the huge thing overlooked in the stat comparrison.
IxidorRS wrote:
AC 23 a 25% harder probability to hit than 18
Standard Leather 12,
Dex+5,
Defensive Duelist +6 (Proficiency)
It should be noted though that the +6 is used as a reaction in melee. A benefit is that it saves you from having to use a battle maneuver die to parry. The downside is that if you use your reaction to add +6 to AC, you can't use a reaction to riposte.
FrogReaver wrote:
There is also the limit of 3 magic items in this edition. The two-weapon fighter has two swords and some armor, the GW Fighter has 1 sword, armor and a ring.
Polearm Mastery get involved for the Strength Great Weapon fighter while the dex-based Two-weapon fighter can grab a longbow of butt-kicking and archery style with his second choice....
Basically, I think the GWF does higher damage in a pure-melee vacuum, but the dex-based twf is at least on equal footing during actual encounters. So do what you want and you won't be losing out on either choice. It's like they planned it that way or something.
So.... OP, I agree with you in some ways - the Dex-TWF-fighter should not be getting the bad reputation that seems to be going around. However, in a straight up attack action vs attack action comparison, the GWF will win. That's why the dex fighter needs to sneak up, get an ambush round in with the longbow to use the martial adept trip attack, win initiative and close to melee, nova, action surge and be 3 full attack actions ahead before the GWF gets to take a turn. Alternately, use the ambush action to disarm the gwf and grab his great weapon. Then it's a two-weapon fighter against a no-weapon fighter. Stealth + Ambush rules!
Batla76 wrote:
And again, I'm not disagreeing or arguing that point, nor am I saying this is the best in any way. Just not as bad of an option as it seems to be at first look.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Batla76 wrote:
Defensive dueist works on one attack per round.
No idea what 25% harder probability to hit means.
Your character actually has 17 ac which is lower than the str fighters with a once per turn ability to give him a much higher ac.
Seems like comparable ac to me. Definetly not drastically better, but it is a bit better.
Batla76 wrote:
Your damage is going to range from lower to much lower of the most optimized great weapon and hand crossbow builds.
You are also assuming battle maneuvers which is a terrible assumption imo. You are looking at the 1st round of combat only.
Make better assumptions ;)
Now with that said a dex two weapon fighter isn't a bad class it's just not a super optimized build.
When they says 25% harder to hit, they mean that since the AC is 5 points higher, there will be five less possibilities on the d20 that will hit the fighter's AC. Ex: If you have a +10 to hit, you could hit an AC 18 target on a roll of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc. but can only hit an AC 23 target on a roll of 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, etc. Since there are five less rolls that can hit the AC 23 target and five rolls make up 25% of the rolls possible on a d20, the target is 25% harder to hit.
Actually, I believe both of you forgot about the Dual Wielder feat (+1 AC when wielding a separate weapon in each hand), thereby putting the AC of a TWF at 18, the exact same as a GWF. Then, with the Defensive Duelist feat, that AC becomes a 24, thereby making it 30% harder to hit.
In addition to improving your AC, the Dual Wielder feat allows the character to use two-weapon fighting even when the two weapons don't have the light property, thereby allowing the damage dice of the TWF to go up a step from d6's to d8's (rapiers also allow the TWF to continue to use Defensive Duelist). This is something that even two-handed crossbow build can't do, thereby allowing the TWF to deal more damage than the crossbow expert. Admittedly, the crossbow expert has more potential by adding +10 to each attack, but only by taking a -5 penalty to attack rolls through the sharpshooter feat (which actually becomes a -3 with the archery path), very similar to the GWF. So, to summarize, the TWF can deal more damage than the GWF or the crossbow expert without taking a penalty to accuracy and has a much higher AC than either build thanks to its feats, thereby clarifying how Drizzt can be the greatest swordsman while still not depending on the GWF build or some pansy crossbow bolts 
FrogReaver wrote:
Defensive dualist can be used with a shield and Str and dualist. Also, you don't have unlimited battlemaster dice.
TWF is behind, but not terribly behind.
AC is the same {leather + dex + DW = 18}
Damage per attack
- GWF = 6.5{1d12} + 5/6{GWF} + 5 = 12.33
- TWF w/ DW = 4.5{1d8} + 5 = 9.5
Bonus action:
- GWF w/ GWM = 12.33 * (1 - .95^4) = 2.29
- TWF = 9.5
Before battlemaster's dice:
- GWF = 51.6 * hit + crit
- TWF = 47.5 * hit + crit
TWF is 4 points behind, less than a maneuvering dice, maybe 10% lower DPR. But it allows for ranged combat and better dex checks.
bid wrote:
Bid, thank you for this reply. It is what I was hoping to look at! I do have a question though. Under Bonus Action it shows 2.29 for GWM. What bonus action does damage under GWM? That may be where my math is off. I thought the bonus action dmg was the primary benefit of TWF.
Thanks!
bid wrote:
Yunru wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Batla76 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bid, you and I both know that all the best dpr builds focus on using the -5/+10 feature. Whether you look at the dpr Kings thread or the my challenge (at will dpr) thread.
The dpr difference is just huge between no -5/+10 and using it
bid wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
In actual play the Str based GWF struggles later on, because of everything higher level has good mobility. He is left huffing and puffing around trying to throw as many hand axes as the DM will allow.
So the reality of the situation is the dex based twf fighter has more overall utility due to the fact he can still be reasonably effective with a bow.
Hell, I'd hate to be a Barbarian in that party.
The dispute was about the margin by which the -5/+10 dmg feat made the greatweapon fighter better at DPR than the dex two weapon variant. You claim it's only 10-11% better. It's actually much better than that for the great weapon fighter in most circumstances and it will rarely be worse than the pure dex fighter build.
I suppose to drive home that point I'll post a complete dex build lvl 1-20 fighter on my Challenge (at will DPR) thread. I'll also post a complete great weapon fighter build there and compare them lvls 1-20 across AC values 7-25. I'll post the results here and my numbers there. It'll take a bit to get both builds fleshed out so don't expect them in the next 5 minutes.
bid wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Really? What would make a better comparison?
mellored wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Feats can add more DPR than +1 to hit and damage depending on the party composition.
bid wrote:
How is it more fair that the str fighter doesn't max his str and the dex one maxes his dex?
mellored wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
So in an actual game where a polearm master fighter is playing and builds
Human Variant (Polearm Master)
Lvl 4; +2 str
Lvl 6: +2 str
and a Dex TWF builds
Human Variant (Dual Wield)
Lvl 4: +2 dex
Lvl 6: +2 dex
Now suppose both character hit level 8. The polearm fighter decides he is going to take the greatweapon master feat to up his damage. The dex fighter objects and says but I don't get a feat that ups my damage I can take at this level. The str based fighter says yea, that's one of the few perks of going str with polearms over going TWF with DEX (which gets higher initiative, the ability to use bows well, the ability to stealth better and ......). The dex based fighter reluctantly agree and takes a non-damage feat.
The dex based fighter gets perks for going dex. The str fighter gets perks for going str (one of which is the ability to grab the great weapon fighting feat). Just because the dex fighter doesn't have to expend a feat for access to his perks doesn't mean the str great weapon fighter should not get to use his perk just because it requires a feat. That's not very fair.
Now with that said if anyone wants to look at how a dex TWF fighter compares to a subpar polearm master figher that's fine. But don't act like its a more fair comparison.
It's not fair to the Polearm fighter to have to limit himself to poor Ability increaes or feat choices just because the dex fighter doesn't have as good of a feat as he does in the great weapon master and polrarm master feats.
Heck if the most fair thing to do is to not use damage feats/stat bumps for damage if the class you are comparing against doesnt get them then that means what the TWF chooses limits what the Polearm fighter can choose and thus the TWF would look better by using 2 short swords and no feats for damage. That would cause the polearm fighter who wants polearm master and great weapon master to only get 16 str as opposed to the dex fighters 20str....
What is trying to be passed off as fair in this thread is the most unfair way to compare that I have ever seen.
To be fair the polearm fighter should choose the best feats and ability scores he has access to when he gets a feat or ability score. The dex fighter should do the same.
So the feats for the polearm fighter would look something like: (Maybe some would value certain feats differently but the point is you have a preferred order for which ones you deem more imporatnat for combat)
Human varient (polearm master)
Lvl 4: +2 str
Lvl 6: +2 str
Lvl 8: Great Weapon Master
Lvl 12: Resilient (Wisdom)
Lvl 14: Toughness
Lvl 16: Alert
Lvl 19: Lucky
(Didn't get to choose defensive Duelist)
The feats for the dex TWF fighter would look something like:
Human Varient (Dual Wielder)
Lvl 4: +2dex
Lvl 6: +2dex
Lvl 8: Resilient (Wisdom)
Lvl 12: Toughness
Lvl 14: Alert
Lvl 16: Lucky
Lvl 19:Defensive Duelist
What some are trying to pass off as fair is to totally restrict the polearm master fighter from taking one of his best choices (+2 str) because the dex fighter doesn't get a similiar feat choice that the polearm master will be taking.....
Such a notion is obviously unfair because it allows the dex fighter to pick the best stat and feat choices he can at every level.... however restricts the polearm master from doing so. Basically to try and make it "fair" they state the polearm master must take inferior choices just because the dex fighter cannot take something that helps damage in the place of great weapon master. It's a totally ridiculous proposition.
Rant over!
FrogReaver wrote:
Thats a a different comparison and one that, If done, imo it needs done with the knowledge that higher damage helps increase survivability too.
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
Frog,
I would be very interested to see these stats. One of my main questions about this is that If you get to add weapon enchantment dmg from the bonus action weapon hit from the TWF that it will be quite beneficial.
Could we see the GWF with a +2 weapon with a +1d6 elemental enchantment versus the TWF with TWO +2 weapons, each with +1d6 enchantemnts?
Thanks!
FrogReaver wrote:
As far as survivability, the Dex TWF would look something like this:
Studded Leather AC 12
Starting Dex = 16 - AC 15
Lvl 4 +2 Dex = 18 - AC 16
Lvl 6 +2 Dex = 20 - AC 17
Lvl 8 - Dual Wielder - AC 18
Lvl 12 - Defensive Duelist - Once per round reaction AC of +4 - 22
Lvl 14 - Mobile - No attack of opportunity after attack, enter and exit square: Defensive Duelist - Once per round reaction AC of +5 - 23
Lvl 16 - Alert - +10 initiative Dex/Feat
Lvl 19 - Lucky reroll failed saves: Defensive Duelist - Once per round reaction AC of +6 - 24
By mid to high levels, you could probably assume that the fighter would have an enchantement on their armor and/or a ring of protection etc. So this 18 AC is a minimum AC. It is the same as full plate but with no disadvantage to stealth. When wandering around dungeons it is not too shabby, especially given that most games have some sort of dungeon or sneaking element. The once per round 24 reaction AC is really nice, especially for the battlemaster. The Battlemaster does not have to use a die to parry and can instead, use a die for more damage.
Should i count the polarm master bonus attack as getting and magic bonuses? Or do u believe just the +1d6 won't apply or the +1 or +2 hit and damage won't apply?
Batla76 wrote:
Frog,
For now, if you don't mind, let's compare the polearm attack without the magic bonuses. I have not kept up with the debate on whether or not you get to add magic or elemental bonus damage when using the opposite end of a weapon for bludgeton damage.
FrogReaver wrote:
mellored wrote:
Batla76 wrote:
GWF does do more dmg under perfect circumstances.
But TWF is for sure better if forced to go range, and high AC targets (sure everyone get bless, but GWF is not getting ADV all the time).
However, if your DM allows Xbow's to be dual wielded and loaded, that's a juicy option.
VeroMaestro wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
We we have done this already 
Besides the original question being examined was about the Twf being okay at dpr vs the gwf. It wasn't so much about saying he's still okay for all these other reasons
VeroMaestro wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Yep. But I don't think the numbers I've posted so far indicate a little damage difference. It's a big damage difference imo ;)
Maybe it will look better once my new numbers are posted. Assuming I don't play the new call of duty all night again...
Batla76 wrote:
mellored wrote:
To to compare things you have to start somewhere. Dpr is a relatively straightforward staring point. Survivability is a lot more tricky to calculate.
We have 4 different defenses, hp, range, stealth, and other factors that play into survivability. I'm not sure where to even begin making that comparison or how to determine if something should be considered a minor difference or a major one
Lindonius wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote: