Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ppaladin123 Aug 25, 2014 15:25:38	Just wondering what  everyone's opinion is on these classes and which to go for if you want to build an "arcane rogue".   The Arcane Trickster has a fairly limited spell list but obviously fills the roll of stealthy skill monkey/backstabber fairly well. And the AT features like using mage hand to steal/disarm trap and grant combat advantage and the "spell steal" feature are quite nice/flavorful (though the latter comes very late in the game).   On the other hand, the bard can also do this (even gets expertise for skills) as a full caster. A lore bard is one heck of a skill monkey/stealthy type but is never going to have the melee/ranged combat ability of a rogue. The valor bard gets two attacks instead of all that sneak attack dice and can augment that with regular castings of haste. His damage is probably more consistent than the rogue but will never have the same potential for spikes with crits (though he can pick up a paladin smite or two to use after a casting of hold person/monster).   Another option would be to multiclass the arcane trickster with the wizard and get a lot in combat and out of combat magical power (the bard dosn't get enough spells known to cover both roles without the ritual caster feat)  at the cost of lower HP and reduced sneak attack damage. Are there any obvious cut points though like with the eldritch knight/wizard combo?   A a side note....none of the above get constitution save profienciency (dangerous for a melee caster) or wisdom save proficiency (very dangerous on a caster that could cause a TPK with an AoE spell if dominated). Is it worth picking these up with feats?
#2 Overpromises Aug 26, 2014 15:24:16	Rogues do eventually get Wisdom saving throw proficiency. Rogues and monks are the only two classes that can eventually get proficiency in Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom saving throws at all times. (School of Transmutation wizards need to be in possession of their transmuter’s stone and have chosen the Constitution saving throw proficiency at the time).   Sneak attacks are really pretty easy to get in a party, so the rogue is likely to do significantly more weapon damage overall. Arcane trickster will be better at important skills than a College of Valor bard and can have expertise in thieves’ tools unlike any bard. A high level College of Lore Bard would be better at a few difficult skill checks per day.   The bottom line is that rogues are better at everything but casting and a few bard-only class features. Since you said you were looking for an “arcane rogue”, the other bard class features wouldn’t seem to be a high priority, leaving casting.   I recommend the Arcane Trickster in most cases unless you specifically want to be a full caster or to have very high Charisma.
#3 woif Aug 25, 2014 18:35:43	To be honest I would level mostly into rogue and picking up a few levels of wizard if/when you feel you don't have enough spells. Off the top if my head I would probably do 3 levels in rogue, 2 in wizard (to pick your school), then 3 more in rogue. At that point you'll know much more about your character and be able to better plan when you want to pick up levels in either class. I would recommend against bard for what you are asking unless being a full caster is really important to you.​ ​ ​ ​
#4 ppaladin123 Aug 25, 2014 18:55:55	Overpromises wrote:
#5 Kalani Aug 25, 2014 19:01:07	Personally, I am more inclined to dip rogue for Expertise, and go Bard myself - but that is because I would prioritise spell use in this build. Thats the thing I love most about 5E....There is no "right" way of doing things. Each build has its advantages and disadvantages, bringing the choice down to player preference, and which build achieves their goals best.
#6 ppaladin123 Aug 25, 2014 19:02:34	woif wrote:
(Reply to #2) Ashrym	Overpromises wrote:
(Reply to #5) Ashrym	Kalani wrote:
#9 Mephi1234 Aug 26, 2014 4:29:53	Depends what you want out of this.      Arcane tricksters are still primarily rogues.    They do sneak stuff the best, just enhanced by magic instead of dominated by it.       Enchanter / illusionist wizards are still very much wizards, who specialize in being jack-of-all-spells; they still have lots of other paths to explore, plus lots of ritual utility.  They also seem to lack inspirations for "positive" enchantments like the bard gets.   Here, you'd be just a skillful wizard, which can be cool, but you'll be primarily focusing on spells for lots of what you want to get done.   Bard played as a beguiler is fun, and probably the only "dedicated" enchanter/illusionist in the game, considering that makes up a significant portion of their spell options, though they don't get the hit-two-people-with-an-enchantment.    But they have more options than the wizard or arcane trickster by default when it comes to choosing spells with a beguiler theme.     And you can't beat the lore-bard's self inspirations at 14 for skill checks!
#10 woif Aug 26, 2014 10:03:04	ppaladin123 wrote:
(Reply to #10) Ashrym	woif wrote:
#12 mellored Aug 26, 2014 13:30:14	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #12) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #7) Overpromises	Ashrym wrote:
#15 woif Aug 26, 2014 15:58:58	Ashrym wrote:
#16 Forgember Aug 26, 2014 16:04:59	IMO, Bard wins, best skill monkey in the game for sure, healing magic on their regular spell list and if you go Lore College dip into great combat spells starting at 6th level. Grab the Urchin/Criminal background for Thieves Tool prof and extra rogue flavor. Might be fun to do it as an aging Half Elf you could claim you learned to play your instruments during your rather frequent trips to the slammer.
#17 ppaladin123 Aug 26, 2014 17:26:38	Actually I think that eventually getting access to dominate person/hold monster/mass suggestion/irresistible dance/dominate monster etc. is kind of important so I think I'd go with a Valor Bard
#18 bishopcruz Aug 28, 2014 20:53:29	What about dipping 3 levels into AT as a Bard? You get expertise on 5 skills, + Thieves' tools, get +2d6 sneak attack once per round, and if you go Half-Elf you end up with 8 skills, which is pretty badass. Not to mention, you only lose 2 levels of spellcasting, can do cunning action, and have all of your bardic abilities. Biggest issue is losing out on 1 ability score increase/Feat. and figuring out when it is best to take the 3 levels of rogue. Having a bard who can sneak, pick locks and disarm traps, has 7 cantrips, (at range), and is a skill monkey seems like a great way to do it. I'd go Valor Bard with this build, but lore bard would still be pretty good too.