Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Napolean_Warlord Nov 20, 2014 2:52:40	Hello all   I'm running a lightfoot halfling and thinking of switching from AT to a booklock.  Will be playing from levels 5-15 (and perhaps beyond).   I can do a Dex / Cha build and have pretty good stealth + devil's sight.   From a damage perspective EB looks generally competitive with sneak attack + I dont need to worry about getting sneak attack - so its more reliable even if it scales less evenly.     I like pact of the book for getting access to all rituals.  That will give additional flexibility and RP options over time.  The rest of my party generally does light optimization, so I end up focusing alot on dishing out damage, but I'd like to have additional strategic options over time - which I think rituals accomplish but Arcane Trickster does not.  By strategic I include out of combat ritual use to optimize overall party strategy, not just in combat control and DPS.   I'll miss some of the great rogue defensive capabilities, but as I'll stay at ranged I can use warlock powers to stay out of combat.   Anything I'm missing or any other thoughts?  Any argument to dip rogue to play a particularly sneaky warlock?  If my dm lets me sneak attach with EB, could be interesting, otherwise I dont think I'd want to slow my spell/slot/invocation progression.   thanks!
#2 Miladoon Nov 20, 2014 9:20:48	I would stay AT.  No multiclassing.  No EB to the face.   You can get access to some nice ritual spells at level 3, 8, and 12 without requiring a book.  And some of the ritual spells you might want are illusion and enchantment spells anyways.  The extra Feat/ABI at level 10 is pretty nice.  Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Cunning Action, Reliable Talent, Blindsense, Slippery Mind are all in your level 15 grasp.   Mage Hand Legerdemain, Magical Ambush, Versatile Trickster! It is like the passive defense utopia and at the same time you get to mess with your enemy.  Accounting should be minimal with the 1/3 caster slots, and getting Sneak Attack is easy enough that I would not even worry about it.   Instead of worrying about damage output, just have fun adventuring for that ever elusive Wish scroll.  Course, casting a high level spell from a scroll is not as easy now that they nerfed spell scroll casting.  It used to be tied to Arcana and a rogue could expertise Arcana and along with Reliable Talent, well, you get the idea.     Take Sharpshooter, Sentinel, or Spell Sniper at level 10 depending how your adventurers go.  Maybe you will want to add EB to your cantrips or you might find something cool like a sweet shortbow or something.
#3 Napolean_Warlord Nov 21, 2014 1:16:11	Thank you Miladoon   I guess my question might be better phrased as follows: Isn't the full warlock build I described nearly as good at doing rogue things as a rogue, with better general utility?  Obviously melee combat would suck for a booklock, but if I'm out of melee 90% of the time, I think the Booklock could be a better stealthy guy + party face than a rogue equivalent, with good dpr and some other really interesting capabilities.   In part I worry that AT will get a bit boring from mid-levels up.  The spell selection is relatively small, and the tactics are rinse and repeat.  You can say the same about EB, but Warlock's have enough other tricks that I think you can really customize your play style by changing invocations, spell selection and by gathering rituals over time.
#4 spanglemaker Nov 21, 2014 2:36:57	I am playing a Warlock, a spy in the Rashemi Secret Service. As my party has not got a thief, I am covering that role, pretty well. I optimised in Adventurer League play, by swapping out my Arcane Initiate Feat for Dungeon Delver (which is a cool feat), I am swapping backas I have just levelled up, but will definitely take Dungeon Delver later on. Deception and Persuasion has saved the lives of my party a few times. Booklock access to Guidance is really handy as well. Teaching my Heavy Armoured Musclebound friends, how to move stealthily was fun and was mostly effective apart from the Natural 1, rolled by a Fighter.   Book of Shadows is a great Invocation and Devils Sight as well. Normal vision at 120 feet in Magical and regular Darkness, thats tasty and better than Darkvision.   Hex is a great spell, yes you do spam EB, but its darn good when you Misty Step in and EB a cultist. Misty Step is not just for emergency escape.   Misty Visions would be a great invocation for an AT homage, unlimited Silent Image.   For me personally, I have been tempted to multi class of AT or Lore Bard with Warlock. A few extra spell slots, EXPERTISE. But I am enjoying being a pure Warlock, so am resisting. I modified my Background, I got rid of the gaming set proficiency and took disguise kit proficiency, more fitting for a spy.   Miladoon, I dont think the AT is a ritual caster, which means you have to take the feat or multiclass to Bard or Wizard (both ritual casters). ATs are cool- Invisible Mage Hand (rather than the mini SFX force hand of everyone else). Also EB works best for Warlocks, with the right invocations or a Sorcerer with 2+ Levels of Warlock (with the right invocations and Feats Spell Sniper, Agonising Blast, Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear (600 foot EB) - You could sneak attack with a pact weapon (Blade Pact) or Shilelagh (Book Pact). I personally would confirm, wether you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon, if so then EB would be fine.   So again Warlocks make great Party Faces and good sneaks, Expertise from Bard or Rogue will make them awesome, but they still work well without. It must be said that Warlocks like to take their comfort breaks, sneakiness helps with this as well.
#5 Danny_Montanny Nov 21, 2014 4:36:34	Starting Rogue will get you 2 more skills. Of course you could always pick up the Invocation to balance that out. I think Warlocks make great spy type characters. Mask of Many faces is crazy good. Fey pact would probably be best, the 1st level charm seems to fit the concept and access to Greater Invisibility would be hard to pass up. I would probably MC it into Rogue a little personally, but that's just me. Expertise and Cunning Action would open up combat options and give you that bump in your skills you'd want.   I run a Rogue 1/Warlock 3 with Actor, GOO pact, and Book of Shadows. He's a shifty bugger. The concept is for no one to know he can cast, and is just a regular old Rogue, so all if his spellcasting is a Performance (which of course he has Expertise and advantage on). If anyone I catches on, I'll just talk in their head in their own voice to cast doubt (DM gives disadvantage on Insight check). In combat, he does ok with Hex + SA + light crossbow and staying in the back. He was actually doing so much damage at level 2, basically one-shot and killed most enemies that the party was all like, "there's no way he can be so deadly with a crossbow!" "Well, I guess he could be just lucky." They eventually stopped trying to figure me out because they could never beat the high DCs with their disadvantaged checks.
#6 Miladoon Nov 21, 2014 7:40:12	Spanglemaker, Over the course of time, an AT can choose a few spells from any school and that includes spells with the ritual tag.  You are right, the AT does not get the ritual caster feature.  You can sneak attack with a ranged weapon, but not EB.  An AT can cast scroll spells from the wizard list, which is a nice support feature for the party.  Although the wizard spell list does not have all the ritual spells, it has the majority of ritual spells.  So by level 13, an AT can use a scroll spell, including ritual scroll spells, up to the 3rd level without rolling to beat a DC and have at least two ritual spells from any school of magic as known spells.  If you count choices of spells that are illusion and enchantment rituals you can have more than two ritual spells on hand.   NW, I think that the warlock would work fine to do much of the rogue-like antics.  Like you say, it is going to be about play style.  ATs are allowed to swap out a spell whenever they level, so keep that in mind, plus they can cast spell scrolls from the wizard list which has many more utility spells that are not ritual tagged.  Either way, I would like to know how it goes.
(Reply to #6) Ashrym	Miladoon wrote:
#8 Miladoon Nov 21, 2014 15:22:16	Right, the OP is looking for a ritual caster, my thought is that an AT can still cast spells with the ritual tag, but not as rituals.  The effect is the same, but the AT uses a spell slot.  Unless the AT casts using a spell scroll.  In that case, the spell scroll illiminates material component requirements.  I know that does not make the AT a ritual caster.  But IMHO, the spell list for the wizard has more utility than the entire list of ritual spells available to the Tomelock.   Ritual Spell List Thread   Your mileage is going to vary.  I am partial to the AT.   At 5th level the Warlock will have 2 rutual spells in the book of Ancient Secrets.  Probably of first level unless the DM is kind and allows more spells from the two levels of adventuring and finding scrolls to add to the book that the Tomelock skipped to get to to level 5.    Nicer that they will have 6 cantrips, three from any list, at level 5.