Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 herbie93 Aug 01, 2015 12:48:04	I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse here but since the search function doesn't work correctly I didn't see anything recent that covers what I'm looking for.   I'm fairly new to 5e and am currently in a campaign running a "bounty hunter" using a hand crossbow. As I have character ADD, I tend to be a few character concepts ahead so if something should happen to the current one I have another ready to go. So in that lies my problem, with the make up of the group (polearm paladin, twf fighter, sorcerer, bard, and soon a blade pact warlock) I feel as though we would still need a ranged combat character to keep things running well. Am I missing something when it comes to non-magical ranged options?   I'm already using the hand crossbow technique, from there it appears there's only a few mechanical options for a ranged attacker to be viable. There's the Eldritch Knight bow bond, although it works it seems more geared towards close combat rather than ranged. The Battle Master abilities work well with ranged attacks, but most of them are versatile abitilites that work with whatever weapon your wielding or in some cases only work with melee. The Shadow Monk as well works, but again most monk benefits are for close combat. Rogue sneak attack (which is what my current character will have after an MC), work wonderfully for ranged, but is also just as good for close combat. And then you have the Ranger, almost unanimously deemed subpar, but gains horde breaker and volley, which again, horde breaker works just fine with a melee attack, and volley doesn't come into play until level 11. So is the only truly ranged combat oriented mechanic available from the Ranger class?    And on a similar line of thought, every ranged character will eventually take the same two or three feats that are almost manditory for them to be good.   It just seems to me in this edition there is nothing that an archer can say "yes I can do this!" (sans Volley) without another character saying "yea so can I, what of it?"   Sorry for the long "rant", if anyone can point me in an interesting direction that maybe I haven't thought of I'd really appreciate it.
#2 jaappleton Aug 01, 2015 15:11:58	Ranger is only supbar when you consider constant single target damage. So against the one boss enemy, yeah, it's a little bit behind. But it's pretty good in all the battles leading up to the boss.
#3 Yunru Aug 01, 2015 18:09:50	Hunter's not subpar. Ranger as a whole is subpar, but only because you have to include Beastmaster in the analysis.
#4 mellored Aug 01, 2015 18:13:23	rangers get several bow spells like ensaring strike, lighting arrow, and swift quiver, they tend to be better at AoE and control then damage. beastmasters are the ones who are behind, mainly because the beast dies and leaves you without damage for the rest of the day. fighters, any type, are well rounded damage and sturdy, but they lack utility. rogues also work as archers, strictly single target but with skills and cunning action. probably the best fit for a bounty hunter as you can track and chase.
#5 herbie93 Aug 02, 2015 18:40:35	Has anyone attempted to tweak the Eldritch Knight archetype to focus on ranged attacks? Maybe toss the spell list around so it includes things like the magic arrows from the ranger? Or exchange one of the class abilities so that you can pick a point within weapon range and count that square as the origin for a cantrip or something. I'm tyring to recall things from the Arcane Archer of ole'.
#6 WizardV Aug 02, 2015 19:39:29	There's a whole guide for EK bow bond. This doesn't require search, the guides are stickied.   http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4144336
#7 herbie93 Aug 02, 2015 20:35:13	Yes I'm aware of that guide, that's why I mentioned the EK in my first post (altough didn't specifically state that as the source). But it's part of the problem, it's a archetype that favors melee but just happens to be able to loosely apply to ranged through a specific set of choices. Beyond some ranger spells (which Mellored pointed out and I appreciate) and techniques there are no other abilities (seemingly) that are unique to an archer character, whereas there a several instances of abilities that strictly apply to melee.
#8 Ravix Aug 02, 2015 20:57:20	My preferred Archer build is Fighter 11/Ranger 3/Rogue 6
#9 mellored Aug 03, 2015 5:27:48	Wizards (and by extension, EK) have no direct archery spells.  Only rangers do.   You may also with to consider a bard.  They can (eventually) steal ranger spells and have more slots.   Though not without trade-offs.  Like a lack of archery style or other stuff.
#10 Danny_Montanny Aug 03, 2015 6:26:52	Lore Bard 10 can have the 4 best Ranger archer spells along with all of the other stuff they get. A Ranger doesn't get access to Conjure Volly or Swift Quiver until level 17. That's just one or the other, they can't get both until 19! So a Fighter/Lore Bard multiclass makes for a powerful arcane archer.   Start Fighter for Archery, then go Lore Bard till 6, picking up Sharpshooter if you're not a Human variant. Then back to Fighter (probably Battle Master) till 6 for 2 ASIs. Then Lore Bard till 10 puts you at level 16 with the same attacks and both archer spells 3 levels ahead of the Ranger. True that the Hunter has some stuff that you don't, but that goes both ways.
#11 herbie93 Aug 03, 2015 6:45:21	Thanks Danny and Red, that's something I didn't know about the Bard, I'll have to read up on that. Still doesn't address that there's no unique mechanics for an archer but hopefully that's fixed with upcoming books or UA's etc.
(Reply to #11) Danny_Montanny	herbie93 wrote:
#13 Phorem Aug 03, 2015 8:08:32	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#14 mellored Aug 03, 2015 9:16:30	Phorem wrote:
#15 Corran21 Aug 03, 2015 11:57:24	herbie93 wrote:
#16 Yunru Aug 03, 2015 12:01:58	I found an interesting side affect of introducing the Musket and Pistol into my campaign was that, while characters without Extra Attack would favour guns. What's that got to do with this you ask? While most characters, NPC or otherwise, can go "I can do this!", none of them can do it as effectively as a martial class with a (cross)bow. The exception being the Rogue, but Rogues with guns are cool.
#17 Kangodo Aug 03, 2015 12:24:44	120 feet? My Eldritch Knight sniped down guards in towers at 600 feet.
#18 herbie93 Aug 03, 2015 13:23:40	That was a lot more than I expected in the amount of times between checking back, I'll try and do this in order haha...   Danny; yes like some other people said, a mechanic would be some sort of rule set or feature that distinguishes itself from others. For example the Sneak Attach feature is a mechanic of the Rogue class. Maybe this is wargaming terminology that I'm bringing without realizing?   Phorem; I'm not meaning to sound ungrateful for the options presented by the book, they're all options I looked at for my current character (except for the bard thing which I didn't know about), and yes many of them are interesting especially when coupled with inventive character concepts etc. What I'm getting at though is I don't understand why you have instances like Rage and Diving Smite (well...I understand Rage) that strictly benefit melee combat as well as several of the Battle Master maneuvers but then there's truly only one class benefit specifically for a ranged attack, Volley, and it's not even available till level 11.   Mellored/Corran; I was waiting for the range thing to come up. Yes I understand doing things at range can be beneficial, but honestly, how often do things come up that allow you to be that far (120-600') away from everything that's going on? Sometimes that seems like more of a disadvantage if it means being separated from your party by that much distance. Then you're all by yourself and not receiving any potential benefits from things like the bard, cleric, or other support mechanics. And should things go south on either end, you're stuck 300 feet from your party, or vice versa, in the middle of combat. Maybe this is a symptom of my gaming environment...   Another part of the problem may simply be that when it comes to ranged combat there are really only two weapon options available, and as soon as the Crossbow Expert feat is taken, they aren't even mechanical different in any way. When it comes to melee combat you have all these weapons options that can significantly change how you work/approach combat, then there's the simple style changes with GWF, TWF, Sword and board, single weapon etc. and then you add on all the normal class abilities that've been mentioned.
#19 mellored Aug 03, 2015 13:31:41	herbie93 wrote:
#20 Danny_Montanny Aug 03, 2015 13:40:26	I do know what a mechanic is, and there's no misunderstanding in the terminology. I was asking what sort of mechanic you're looking for? What exactly do you want your archer to do that can't already be covered through action adjudication by your DM?
#21 Phorem Aug 03, 2015 13:42:02	herbie93 wrote:
#22 Kangodo Aug 03, 2015 13:48:35	herbie93 wrote:
#23 herbie93 Aug 03, 2015 15:57:37	Oh sorry Danny, the way it was worded I thought you didn't understand, my apologies. But to that second point that was kind of what I was hoping to get out of this thread. If anyone had already come up with some ideas for class changes or what have you. But now it seems like people didn't really see any problems so I don't think I'm going to get that. I'm not really a rules designer but the things I can think of quickly are like I mentioned earlier with the old Arcane Archer, making magic arrows, or maybe implementing some sort of point system like the elemental monk path so you spend points and your arrow now has a spell-like effect, so then the class doesn't actually have to cast spells persay. Then as far as different types of weapons, really it's just some changes to stats and prices to compensate, maybe something like a small recurve bow is a d8 but half the range and more expensive so a small character could use it theoretically, or bringing back the repeater crossbows etc.
#24 Danny_Montanny Aug 03, 2015 16:23:36	Let's look at creating an Arcane Archer subclass for the Fighter using the EK spell progression and the Spell Point variant in the DMG. We'll get a progression that looks like:   3rd: 4 4th: 6 5th: 6 6th: 6 7th: 14 8th: 14 9th: 14 10th: 17 11th: 17 12th: 17 13th: 27 14th: 27 15th: 27 16th: 32 17th: 32 18th: 32 19th: 38 20th: 38   Now that we have the fuel, what should it do?
#25 Jared711 Aug 03, 2015 16:44:00	If the GM allows Sorcerer (Favored Soul),  unearthed arcana stuff take that.   You get an extra attack at level 6.  Choose life domain for bless and other healing stuff, or choose any domain you like.   You can quicken fireballs, bless or twin haste.  Reactions for counterspell and shield.   Bard is ok for an archer but doesn't come online until level 10.
#26 mellored Aug 03, 2015 17:28:47	if you just want spells shot from a bow... why not simply reflavor your impliment as a bow? shoot fireball arrow instead of fireball, or cupids arrow instead of charm.
#27 herbie93 Aug 03, 2015 19:34:43	I haven't really read the DMG (as I dont' really run D&D) so I wasn't aware that was a thing. The jump from 17 to 27 seems steep to me, I'm guessing spells would use points based off their level?   I'll have to think things over but the basic idea I had in my head is that it would function almost exactly as the Elemental Master. You gain "arcane bolts", or whatever you want to call them and they mimic an effect of a spell. Bolts would be gained at determined intervals, and some would have level requirements (associated with spell level).   I think the regular EK abilities would still work just fine, you simply give the lower level bolts the cantrip keyword and they still trigger the later class ability and mix some words around. The list of arcane bolts would have options for some control spells as well as straight damage ones. I think that the regular EK is built around defense whereas the Eldritch Archer would be built more around control/dps, so there wouldn't be a large need for it to mimic things like shield etc.   The other note would be to define that using an arcane bolt is your action, similar to how a EK would cast a spell rather than attack, which again would keep the benefits of the latter archetype features.   That's just a quick summary from my head though, maybe I'll have to do an actual write up and collect everything together.
#28 mellored Aug 04, 2015 5:21:13	The jump from 17 to 27 seems steep to me, I'm guessing spells would use points based off their level?
#29 Danny_Montanny Aug 04, 2015 5:27:58	The progression for using spell points to cast looks like this per spell level:   1st-level slot: 2 spell points 2nd-level slot: 3 spell points 3rd-level slot: 5 spell points 4th-level slot: 6 spell points.   That's why there's big jumps in power at those levels. It's where the EK gets access to bigger level spells. Or in our case, the ability to use some of the Arcane Shots to a bigger effect more often.   So if we wanted a Hold Person effect, it'd cost 3 spell points to cast it on our arrow. It doesn't have to be called Hold Person either. Paralyzing Shot sounds pretty cool, so it'd look something like this:   Paralyzing Shot As an action, you expend 3 Spell Points to imbue a piece of ammunition, or a weapon with the thrown property, and make a ranged weapon attack at a humanoid target. If the attack hits, in addition to the weapon's damage, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw or be paralyzed for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make another Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the effect ends.   So wording it like this makes it not a spell and will get around anything that would give the target advantage on a save versus a spell. Not a big boon, but one that gives the sub-class some uniqueness.
#30 Phorem Aug 04, 2015 8:07:24	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #30) Jared711	I took a try at making either a feat or a wizard arch for arcane archer.   http://community.wizards.com/forum/dungeon-master-help/threads/4223936   http://community.wizards.com/forum/dungeon-master-help/threads/4222701
#32 Danny_Montanny Aug 04, 2015 9:50:44	What about the phase and seeker arrows from the 3.5 version? Nothing can do that. Or an chose an element type to add to your normal damage ability. Or a number of other unique things that you could come up with. The Paralyzing Shot was an example on the fly. It could definitely be cast as a bonus action and work like Ensnaring Strike does.   Sure you can flavor stuff as an Arcane Archer. I've got a Half-Elf Fey Warlock that is one. That's not what the OP was looking for, though, so I'm just trying to brainstorm to give them some options.
(Reply to #32) Phorem	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#34 mellored Aug 04, 2015 16:42:57	seems like a feat. Arcane Archer: proficency in a bow and a spell. *you can use a bow as your impiment *as a bonus action you can empower one of your arrows with a spell that takes an action to cast and tagets a creature or location. this takes concentration. when you attack with that arrow, and hit your taget, it takes damage as normal and the spell triggers against that target, or in that location. if you miss, you lose the spell slot. you can target a location and automaticly hit.
(Reply to #34) Danny_Montanny	mellored wrote:
#36 herbie93 Aug 05, 2015 6:59:46	So I was going to post some stuff I had thought of, but coming back and reading everyone's responses are much better than everything I came up with haha.   And personally, I think the feat that came up between Jared711 and Mellored actually solves my "problem" entirely.   The fact it's a feat makes it a trade off, and the prerequisites keep it from being taken immediately at first level by humans except in certain cases with class proficiency and given multiclassing any caster can use it. The bonus action mitigates power creep with other actions since a lot of other features require them.   The only possibly negative thing would be potential weird interactions with certain spells...but the rules are never 100% perfect anyway.
(Reply to #35) Phorem	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#38 herbie93 Aug 05, 2015 8:38:53	Perhaps add the caveat that you must use the normal range of the weapon? Then the spell is in some ways limited by the weapon being used.
#39 Jared711 Aug 05, 2015 9:49:11	Phorem wrote:
#40 Danny_Montanny Aug 05, 2015 10:58:51	A feat can work and is how 5e has approached it even though it didn't make a final cut. Probably because it really didn't work out very well the way it was written and they felt it wasn't necessary to revise it.   I do like the idea of unique abilities that a sub-class could achieve as oppose to just casting a spel at a potentially bigger range and useung your attack bonus vs AC instead of saving throws on certain spells.   I might still make a Figthter archetype that has some cool abilities.