Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 starfire311 Apr 17, 2015 9:22:34	At first I really like the idea of archetypes, but lately they have been bugging me. I have an assassin and was thinking it could be really cool to multi-class into an arcane trickster, it would fit the character's concept pretty well, and then I realized oh wait a sec, arcane trickster and assassin are the same class. Why can a berserker multi-class into a Arcane Trickster, but an Assassin can't? Seems like a flaw/limitation of the system to me.
#2 HermanTheWize Apr 17, 2015 9:32:06	starfire311 wrote:
#3 starfire311 Apr 17, 2015 9:50:26	Yeah, I guess my frustration is that I am losing my love of archetypes, as I see their limitations. Assassin, Thief, and Arcane Trickster are really 3 different classes that share some similarities. Prohibiting a Thief from also being an Arcane trickster, while alloing a Berserker to become an Arcane Trickster just seems like a bad design implementation. Yes I know they wanted to make it as simple as possible while keeping as much depth as possible, it is just starting to bug me, when I see 3rd handle this case better and even 4th handle this case better.   This can easily be addressed with a certain amount of houseruling IMO, and allowing you to multi-class into the same class inorder to get another archetype, to count the total level for the class abilities and the individual level for the archetype abilties. So, a Assassin 4/Thief 4 would count as an 8th level rogue for Rogue abilties, but a 4th level Assassin for Assassin Abilties and a 4th level Thief for Thief abilties.
(Reply to #3) HermanTheWize	starfire311 wrote:
#5 HermanTheWize Apr 17, 2015 10:13:22	A good idea would be to make a new archetype for your specific needs. A more stealthy archetype for your theif side and a slightly better damage bonus from your assasin side.    Blend both into one or make both of the things you get weaker. You shouldn't be as stealthy as a specialized thief, or as skilled with a blade as a pure assassin.   Make an outline for this "Assassin / Thief" hybrid archetype and post it onto the forum for balance advice.
#6 starfire311 Apr 17, 2015 10:31:46	HermanTheWize wrote:
#7 Stormborn20 Apr 17, 2015 10:44:11	starfire311 wrote:
#8 Weedeater Apr 17, 2015 13:34:20	Yeah but if it worked like 4/4=8, every fighter would dip champion to get improved crit range.   probably all berserkers would dip to get bear totem.   it doesn't really make sense.    If you want to be a magic assassin you need to multiclass or home brew.
#9 Dyndrilliac Apr 17, 2015 14:31:58	As I was reading this thread, I came to a conclusion: I think this situation would be best handled by creating a new Warlock archetype that combines some of the assassin/rogue features with magic.   Pact of the Dagger   When you choose this pact at level 3, all spells capable of being learned by an Arcane Trickster are added to the Warlock's spell list if they are not already listed. You also gain proficiency with the disguise kit and poisoner's kit. You also gain the benefits of the Expertise feature and the Sneak Attack feature as if you were a Rogue at half your Warlock level rounded down (this scales up with your Warlock level). This pact prevents you from gaining any instances of the Mystic Arcanum feature. Instead at levels 11, 13, 15, and 17 you may choose one feature from either the Assassin or the Arcane Trickster according to the following table:   Level 11: Assassinate or Mage Hand Legerdemain Level 13: Infiltration Expertise or Magical Ambush Level 15: Impostor or Versatile Trickster Level 17: Death Strike or Spell Thief   Having both Assassin or Arcane Trickter features would be OP. As would giving the Warlock equal level Expertise/Sneak Attack (hence why I chose to impose the half level rounded down restriction). The idea is to force the player to choose, otherwise you might as well just declare them the winner and go play something else. I think trading Mystic Arcanum for allowing the player to pick and choose which Assassin/Arcane Trickster features they want (with the caveat that they can't have both the Assassin and Arcane Trickster features for a given level) is a fair trade-off.
#10 cannonfodder Apr 17, 2015 15:11:55	Why not multiclass wizard and grab mage hand?
#11 Kentus Apr 17, 2015 16:11:33	If your DM is OK with this, you may use your Ability Score Improvements to get the archetype-features of the class which are at best the same level as your rogue currently. May seem strong at first, but if you consider some feats and the fact, that you still have this much actions, I think it's manageable. And it makes it much harder to get your ability points high.
#12 strider13x Apr 18, 2015 16:44:42	Or take Arcane Trickster and pick spells that involve Poison and Disguise stuff. BAM! Your a spellcasting Assassin. Or look at Shadow Monk. Really lots of ways to get what you want...
#13 FrogReaver Apr 18, 2015 18:54:27	I think level 3 subclass features were designed around the premise that you would not get 2 while maintaining full class progression.   I could easily see most every class in the game taking specific dips for their level 3 / level 6 features.  Heck could you imagine a cleric that gets this benefit.....   All in all the way the game is, it isn't designed around doing what the OP suggested.  However, the idea to make a new blended subclass works very well.  Just don't dump two level 3 life features out right away.
#14 Noon Apr 19, 2015 22:40:02	The berserker example is pretty flawed - it's pitches this as if that class is free from a limitation the rogue class has.   And all char gen is based on limitation. It's what makes it more than a pure magical tea party. Char gen frees you by letting you make a character within constraints - if there were no constraints no one would play with your character, they'd just say 'nice idea for a novel'