Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 GabrielPendragon Jan 21, 2015 18:13:00	Ok so how likely would it be to be able to make a character, likely a paladin or cleric, who's primary weapon is an army of hirelings? at about 250 unskilled hirelings would be spending about 50 g per day, outfit them with slings or even a pile of improvised weapons, and swarm campaigns with them? Pair it up with a party of archers and mages for best effect. Using persuasion checks to keep them all rallied and fighting, promises of money and paradise worked pretty well throughout the crusades.   Thoughts?   IIRC the rewards for organized games tend to be 50G plus extra things.   Also late game this character could look to upgrade to skilled hirelings, then soldiers, or even maybe an undead army...
#2 Azylynne Jan 22, 2015 2:34:23	It would really depends on your DM.  As a DM, for me, it would depend on a few factors: other players and what they want out of the campaign experience, the campaign itself and whether having mass "armies" lend to the actual campaign, and where the characters are located and their reputation. If my other players don't want a mass horde of NPCs around and become really annoyed, I probably won't allow for too many hirelings etc. especially if they start taking away from the players.  I have one group that just hates NPCs to the point where now they are meta-gaming against NPCs.  Another group I had ran round with hirelings and mercenaries.  One character basically ended up marrying his NPC henchmen while another went on top build a massive army to fighty against the ruler of the land.  It really depends.   As for the campaign itself - well, if the campaign was set up for eventual massive combat and the PCs becoming great generals and warlords leading their masses, this type of horde of hirelings campaign can totally work.  But if I was running something much smaller scale, like a smaller dungeon crawl, or a campaign filled more with mystery and investigation, or much smaller scale action, I probably won't not encourage an army of NPC hirelings.   As for character reputation - well, if the characters treat their NPCs like crap, NPCs will NOT really be wanting to follow these guys, especially if they were used like meat-shields and fodder as opposed to beloved work force.  Likewise, most locales (again depending on campaign) do not have 250 people sitting around the local mercenary mart waiting to get hired on by adventurers.  Also as NPCs die off, other NPCs, at least for me, would not want to hire onto an outfit that results in so much death, and such low pay.  If the forces acquire large sums of gold and are only paid a pittance, these NPCs would riot and leave the PCs.    Ultimately, I don't think D&D5e is a system created for a few people leading a horde of foot soldiers (maybe Exalted, or some other game sytstem, no idea).  However, I also believe that the game is somewhat flexible, along with a lot of GM tolerance, to allow for me.  It's up to the DM/GM ~ you know?  But if say I was running AL and someone tried that on me, I'd shut it down fairly early after the players lose a chunk of their money.
#3 EzechielDantan Jan 22, 2015 5:00:27	GabrielPendragon wrote:
#4 RPGBG Jan 22, 2015 5:32:54	It's not something that you should base your character arround. Gathering the townfolks can be cinematic solution the first time, but gets old pretty fast and it is 100% dependant a DMs call. Mobs don't work well with dungeons (cramped space) and they don't work well with dragons (dragonbreath). Te game is called dungeons and dragons...
#5 Noctaem Jan 22, 2015 6:26:36	There's also the question of how all those hirelings are managed in and out of combat.  It gets annoying to have one player take 20 minutes to do his turn because he's got 100 hirelings to manage or the DM to be bogged down by the same thing.  It's a neat concept that I would use in a 1 player and DM type campaigns but not in a group setting.  It's just way too annoying for everyone involved.
#6 Razintarr Jan 22, 2015 7:03:39	It needs to be a group thing, not a one-character-thing. Certainly not something you should drop on an unsuspecting DM or fellow players. Player A takes his turn, then player B and than player C and his 25 npc hirelings will make for a bogged down game that isn't enjoyable at all.   That said, playing a mercenary company is a great premise for a campaign. Seeing the army grow in number and getting better equipment can be very rewarding. The playercharacters can all take leading roles in the company, like the captain, the company chaplain, the treasurer. Adventures will take a fresh and new viewpoint.   A mercenary company has a whole different impact on a situation than a group of player characters. Adventures would have to be tailormade. Probably with an "away-team" element. For example the company gets hired to defend a city from the attacks of a dragon and his kobold army. The company stays in town to defend it against the kobolds, while the player characters go out to kill the dragon in a regular dungeoncrawl. Or in a siege the company harasses the defenders while the players take a secret passageway into the castle and fight their way to open the gate.   There are no rules for large scale combat (yet), so a straight up fight between 100+ mercenaries and a 100+ enemies would be hard to handle. But you can scale it down. For the defense of a town against the kobold army, you can play it as a series of encounters that determine the outcome of the fight as a whole. For example 10 mercenaries on the wall that have to prevent a battering ram of reaching the gate, by killing a certain number of kobolds that push it.
#7 7he_professor Jan 22, 2015 9:13:41	GabrielPendragon wrote:
#8 GabrielPendragon Jan 22, 2015 11:31:37	I was expecting the dm to take control of them honestly, its not like they are trained to work with me, just throw rocks and beat things with clubs, and I know managing morale would be a pain. But I think it could be an interesting character to play, but I see the point about people liking to feel like badasses and not support. So awesome to prearrange with friends at home, and really dickish to drop onto an unsuspecting dm, Check.
#9 Noctaem Jan 22, 2015 11:36:59	GabrielPendragon wrote:
#10 awaken_D_M_golem Jan 22, 2015 14:35:51	I took the Noble Knight background, and yacked with my DM about it.   What we decided to do, was the Untrained thing is seriously Untrained. Previous edition Common Humans were 10 10 10 11 11 11 stats. That's a 15 Point Buy, plus the +1 per stat for Regular Human, because  Variant Human has a trained feat and a train skill = not Untrained anymore. So one dude is armored with good Wis + Cha, Help action in melee on occasion. Other dude is un-armored with Dex + Con, has some more cheap weapons.   Then the Knight is Trained but has almost nothing trained quite yet (presumeably is being Trained in something the PC is trained in). Perception skill only, and 1 feat.  Less than half of the Fighter 1 class goodies. Split the difference of standard PC point-buy and the 15 above. And is paying for the Training so not as "expensive" as a normal Trained hireling.     The way I figure it, an Untrained Hireling is not trained in anything !! Trained Hireling is at least trained in 1 thing, but no certainty they've more than that 1 thing trained.
#11 BRJN Jan 22, 2015 18:14:32	As a one-off, it can be fun to run a character plus a half-dozen very simple support troops (archer, say).  My 4e Warlock's first real victory came when he planted a power that made the enemy's AC full of holes, then the dozen Archers we brought along all got their turn: a bunch of hits !   The next turn my power wore off and the archers tried again - a bunch of misses !  But by now the enemy was bloodied and trying to flee. To make things easier, the archers were in a loose skirmish line with orders to stay put and fire every turn the monster was visible.  They all acted at once and all did the same thing. Rolling 12 d20s at once was something a PC usually doesn't get to do.   With all that, I would not want to play a campaign with a horde of allies around, due to constraints of time.
#12 Undrhil Jan 22, 2015 21:12:42	So, all that talk about "never say No" is just baloney then?  Cause, that's what I am hearing in this thread where someone has an interesting idea.   So, you don't want to take control of his army, make him take control of it.  Basically, figure out how many of the enemies each dozen or so of the army can handle and remove those enemies.  Then, make sure the party *only gets experience for the enemies they actually fought.*   The guy with the army will figure out on his own that this isn't a good trick.  But, it could help to wittle down some of the larger combat scenarios (12 skeletal archers and 4 zombies?  Yikes!)   And if the players want experience for all of the enemies, then be sure the experience is split amongst all combatants.  Once the hirelings get 300xp accumulated, they will become level 2 adventurers and will no longer be satisfied with a mere 2 sp for their services......
#13 RufusRockbottom Jan 23, 2015 0:36:15	I thought the Dm's guide mentioned something about hirelings not having access to magic and only being of a low level, of course nothing is stopping them from learning magic as they themselves level up?
#14 Tashiro Jan 23, 2015 1:24:27	This amuses me to hell, because I'm fully behind PCs having NPCs to back them.  Hiring people to help you with what you're doing, raising an army, or what-have-you?  I'm totally down with that.  I'd also be splitting the XP however, between everyone involved, but unless I read otherwise, I'd be giving hirelings half shares of XP, so every two NPCs is the same as one PC.  They'd not level as fast, but they're still having adventures and progressing.  If you could keep them alive, they'd level eventually, and slowly gain experience.   This is where you get your 'trusted lieutenant' and so forth, of course.
#15 Tashiro Jan 23, 2015 1:27:26	Giving this more thought, I'm more than cool with it. Finding the proper NPC can help you round out the party, giving a little more oomph, and is a good way to part you from your gold as you cover their expenses.  In my last game, which was BECMI, the PCs wound up de-petrifying a bunch of people, and hired them on to help staff their airship - I was totally cool with that, and if they wanted to bring the NPCs along for actual adventures, I was cool with that, too.   But yeah, I figure the PC would negotiate a deal with the NPC, for a portion of the treasure, or for pay, and the NPC would take a fraction of the XP everyone gains.  The more help you have, the less XP you get as it's divided between the group.  So the PCs progress a little slower, but they're generally gathering strength as well.  I think that's fair.
#16 Noctaem Jan 23, 2015 6:00:10	Undrhil wrote:
#17 pudd Jan 23, 2015 6:34:54	This army of minions was an idea I've been thinking about for a while. Sadly as many have said it would make their turn take quite a while and it would slow it down quite a bit. I still have some ideas though... An option may be to recruit these hirelings but have them work in the background providing information, materials, or money, instead of running through dungeons with you. This way they are still helping your cause but they probably won't take up a turn in combat. Another idea might be to have them form a group of their own (I think someone has mentioned this earlier) and assign them a task of some sort like searching for a person or item. Possibly have a D100 roll to determine the result with varying degrees of success or failure. 1-5: the whole party might die, 6-10: D3 random party members die and the task is a failure, etc up to 100 when it's a perfectly successful mission and they walk away almost untouched and with pockets of gold. You could work out modifiers to the mission based on the party's skills and features: paladins get a bonus vs undead, ranged get a bonus vs melee, etc. Pretty much the Garrison Missions in the newest WoW expansion. My last idea is something that the whole party would need to be cool with otherwise it makes it difficult. Maybe to complete task they switch characters to one of the NPC hirelings because the usual PCs are stuck in a dungeon or otherwise occupied. This would also help people to understand other classes a bit more because they would be using something different. It might also require players with a bit more experience as well just so they can get the hang of the new character a bit faster. Kind of like a backup party I suppose but they're meant to be NPCs so probably aren't as powerful as normal.
(Reply to #12) Coredump00	Undrhil wrote:
#19 spanglemaker Jan 23, 2015 11:07:33	I like the concept of an army of minions, I first saw it as a viable concept in Savage Worlds. There were limits if I recall correctly and the way the concept was described was a little different. The one I saw was a caster, and their sfx was minions. In 5e I was working on a Warlock character who is a tad lazy and uses Unseen Servant to do pretty much everything.    In 4th Edition, I recall that summonings basically took the players actions/ turn. In 5e the Rangers Animal Companion and the Chain Warlocks Familiar do this as well if I recall correctly. I reckon this was done to stop a player hogging the limelight. It also means that you have to plan and make sacrifices, as to what you want to achieve. I would suggest checking out the summoning spells we have available in the PHB. How conjured animals, Fey, Elementals etc work could give a hint on how to work this. Any npcs who worked as minions would gain experience, as they level up and as you level up. Things could get interesting, as they may seek further financial re numeration ie Danger Money, better accommodation, better supplies, a stipend between adventures so they can spend their share of the gold ( which comes from your share of the party gold. You are playing in a party of 5, then your 5th of gold is going to have to provide for the upkeep of your minions, who at first may be grateful, they may later hero worship the PC or want their fair share ( of your 5th).
#20 Yunru Jan 23, 2015 14:44:31	Train them bitches in magic, bitches love magic. That and an army of 300 CheerleadersDiviners ftw.
#21 BRJN Jan 23, 2015 18:43:00	pudd wrote:
#22 GabrielPendragon Jan 25, 2015 22:15:28	Friend suggested as a better idea, hire a small number of skilled hirelings as officers for groups of unskilled hirelings, numbers he suggested was 3 skilled and like 10 unskilled under each and use them as units. Thus also leaving extra starting gold to help outfit them with better gear.   With the other extreme being a group of bards spending their entire 200 starting g to all buy 1000 hirelings each. Also pointed out that it shouldnt be too hard to handle such groups as a DM, for example simply telling the PC that they couldn't find that many hirelings to hire, or that the entire group breaks at the start of the first fight and all flee, or that they aren't getting paid enough when the first fight breaks out and either walk off or turn on the PC's. Or other such responses. Also handling large number groups as swarms instead of individuals.