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| #1crimfan07Aug 19, 2014 17:39:58 | It seems that there will be an official Artificer... sometime. However, for those of us currently playing artificers in 4E games who want to convert, I'm interested in options. I've thought of a two possibilities, which depend on the "feel" desired:
Artificer as Mad Scientist: Adapt the warlock. Make a patron that has a clockwork theme and reskin spells and/or create a new spell list.
Artificer as Leader: Adapt the bard. Shift the spell list around and make Int the primary casting stat.
Thoughts? |
| #2melloredAug 20, 2014 8:17:25 | I see the bard as the most likely.
Collage of Artifice: Level 3: Intligent Insperation: You get a number of inserpation dice equal to your Int modifier instead you of your Cha modifier. Use magic device: You can use any magic item regardless of race or other restrictions
Enchant: You can use your insperation die on a weapon or armor. This takes 1 minute, and last 8 hours. Each item can only have 1 enchantment on it at a time. Select 2 echantments. *Elemental Burst: Choose a weapon and choose fire, lighting, or cold. The next time it hits roll the insperation die and add damage of that type. *Elemental Shield: Choose an armor, choose fire, lighting, or cold. The next time the creature using it takes damage of that type, roll the die and reduce damage by that amount. *Speed Burst: Choose a pair of boots. As a bonus action, the target can disengage or dash. He can do this a number of times equal to the maximum of the insperation dice. *ect...
Craft Magic Item: You can create a temporary magic item. To do so you expend X spell slots for Y effects. You cannot regain that spell slot untill you dismiss the effect. If you maintain a magic item for a year and a day, the spell slot cost is reduced by 1. Each additional year reduces it by another 1. If the spell slot is reduced to 0, the effects become permanate.
Disenchant Magic Item: You can disenant magic items. You regain 1/2 magic spell slots it takes for you to enchant one, but cannot gain more then you normally would.
Level 6: Recharge Magic Item: You can expend 1 use of your insperation dice to give a magic item 1 extra charge.
Adept Craftsman: You can use 2 effects on a magic item. The cost reduction applies to the lowest spell slot first.
Level 14: Master Craftsman: You can use 3 effects on a magic item. The cost reduction applies to the lowest spell slot first.
Bonus spells: Magic Weapon, Resist Elements, ect.. (???) |
| #3Setzer_GAug 20, 2014 8:15:45 | I oringally thought Wizard. Many different specialties fit, thematically, some would be easier to reskin than others. I like the Bard idea, I've always liked the artificer as an active academic.
I would suggest level 6 recharge might be better if "The Artificer can recharge magic items and equal amount of charges with an equal amount of Hit Dice. If a wand of magic missiles has 3 charges left for the day, an Artificer could spend 2 of his Hit Dice on a Short rest to restore 2 more charges to the wand."
I also like something like adding summoning spells to his spell list, reskinning them to be inventions or clockwork, or something else steampunky-ish.
I'll add to this later when more inspiration strikes me in the head. |
| #4melloredAug 20, 2014 8:24:09 | The biggest issue with bard is Cha spells, rather then Int spells. Otherwise, the features fit better then mages.
Though I am hoping for a full artificer class at some point though. Not a simple sub-class. There's just so many good ideas you fit into an engineer architype.
Power Armor (iron man). Trap smith. Clockwork Summoner. Alchemist. Seige (catapults, balistas). Arcane Archer. ect...
Probably make it a 1/2 caster. |
| (Reply to #3)AlHazred |
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| (Reply to #5)crimfan07 | All cool ideas!
Mostly I'm trying to respect the bard as a class so as not to break the game that I don't have a good feel for yet, so I focused on substituting abilities. So here goes what I have been working on:
-Intelligence as the casting attribute instead of Charisma. Dexterity would be the secondary attribute for most Artificers. -Jack of All Trades stays as-is. -Song of Rest is replaced by Alchemical Ministrations. It does the same thing, but represents the Artificer's use of alchemical tinctures to treat wounds. -Proficiencies as-is. -Rock Gnome Tinker ability instead of the 3 musical instruments. -Inspiration works pretty much as-is. In this case, it's representing the Artificer's various gadgets and whatnot that are used to enhance self or allies.
I'm not sure what to do with Countercharm. That's a great ability, but doesn't really fit the Artificer. This should become something else, although I'm not sure what. I like the crafting rules proposed above, so maybe that's it.
The Valor college works nicely as-is to do a battle-oriented artificer with just some reskinning. The Lore college needs a bit of work, but it's not bad. Instead of Cutting Words something might be Hindering Device: It works the same mechanically, but it operated through a device of some sort.
The spell list would require some work, but as a start. (I've kept the official names, but some would be reskinned, such as Spiritual Weapon, which is clearly a flying sword or something like that!)
Cantrip: Acid Splash, Blade Ward, Chill Touch, Dancing Lights, Fire Bolt, Light, Mage Armor, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Tenser's Floating Disk, Thunderwave, True Strike, Unseen Servant 1st Level: Alarm, Bless, Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Faerie Fire, Feather Fall, Healing Word, Heroism, Identify, Longstrider, Unseen Servant, 2nd Level: Blur, Cloud of Daggers, Enhance Ability, Heat Metal, Knock, Lesser Restoration, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melf's Acid Arrow, See Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Spiritual Weapon
etc. |
| #7UndrhilAug 20, 2014 21:38:23 | You should not give Mage Armor as a cantrip. If you want it to be a cantrip, give it as a class ability (like the Warlock invocation or the Dragon Sorcerer's dragon scales.) The reason being that it becomes a no-brainer for anyone to take the Magic Adept feat to get Mage Armor as a cantrip. Same thing for the other normally Level 1 spells, actually.
I would also recommend not giving them any of the Illusion spells. Gadgeteers don't make for good illusionists, just look at the Forest Gnome and Rock Gnome....
Other ideas I have for the Artificer -
Level 1: Gain a Spellcube, similar to a Wizard's spellbook. The slots per level would be the same as the Sorcerer. At level 1, you would pick 3 Cantrips and 1 + INT mod. level 1 spells. Your Spellcube can be used as your Arcane focus, or you can store the spellcube and use another arcane focus.
Level 2: Gain the Artifice ability. This allows you to modify a spell you have "prepared" in your spellcube, so that it doesn't require a verbal component. In addition, you can use one use of the Artifice ability to grant INT mod temporary hit points to an ally within 5 feet of you. You can use the Artifice ability a number of times per day based on the table. (Presumably, it would be 2 times per day until level 5, then three times per day until level 11, etc.)
Level 3: Choose Artifice of Healing or Artifice of Buffing. When you modify a spell using your Artifice ability, the spell gains a bonus effect, based on this choice. Artifice of Healing - pick an ally within range of the spell; that ally heals 1d4 + INT mod hit points. Artifice of Buffing - pick an ally within range of the spell; that ally has advantage on their next attack roll.
Additionally, at level 3: Choose a spellcasting class other than the Artificer; you can pick one spell from that class's spell list and treat it as an Artifice spell. This spell will not go into your Spellcube and does not count as one of your prepared spells. Whenever you gain an Artificer level, you can choose to change this spell. This spell must be of a spell level equivalent to a spell level you are capable of casting as an Artificer and cannot be a cantrip.
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How does that sound so far? Obviously, spellcasting ability would be INT and it would get the standard fare of Spell Attack = INT mod + proficiency and Spell Save DC = 8 + INT mod + proficiency. |
| (Reply to #7)crimfan07 |
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| #9melloredAug 21, 2014 5:25:16 |
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| (Reply to #9)crimfan07 |
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| #11Setzer_GAug 21, 2014 7:29:41 | Maybe it's because I just caught up on the Doctor Who serials up until the premire, but I always saw a bit of artificer in there. Monsters running around, and the Artificer tweaking the wand/rod/device just right in order to get the desired effect. I think we're on the right track with a more Vancian idea, I would like a more flexible system for just that situation.
I like the idea of giving the gadgets to other people, seems right to me. Maybe the Artificer can cast on the fly using whatever devices he has on him at the time, but if he wants other people to use the effects, then he has to prepare the item specifically for that. Maybe limit the emount he can prepare and give out based off Int bonus before needing a long rest. Example:
1st level Artificer with an Int of 15 (+2) has 4 spell slots. He knows the dummy fighter is going to just boss dive, so he gives his rogue buddy 2 slots worth of a healing salve (the maximum of his Intelligence bonus) that he made ahead of time. Later, when the Artificer sees the rogue has used all the salve and the fighter is still throwing caution to the wind. He whips out a small globe, gives it a few twists, turns, pushes a button and throws it at oncoming baddies, putting them to sleep. Phew, good thing that last minute calculation worked.
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| (Reply to #11)crimfan07 |
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| #13crimfan07Aug 24, 2014 20:52:17 | Just an update, based on input here and from some other folks I know, this is what I'm using (tentatively). I played my character, a 4th level conversion of my old 6th level eladrin artificer 4E character tonight. It felt like a good conversion in spririt. There were some old abilities I didn't have that I missed and a few things that weren't there before, but basically things worked pretty well.
Artificer Variant of the Bard
There's a spell list, too. I'll figure out a way to post it. |
| #14Danny_MontannyAug 25, 2014 7:23:02 | Am I the only one who thinks that just re-skinning the Wild Magic Sorcerer would be the best one? "Let's see if this gadget doesn't turn me purple like it did last time I used it!"
EDIT: Heck! Even the Dragon subclass would work. You've treated yourself alchemically to have an affinity to a particular element (dragon ancestor), dragons can sense this affinity so you get your bonus like normal. Your treated skin provides you with the AC bonus. You learned Draconic because many ancient Artificer plans are written in it. What up jetpack at level 14! |
| #15melloredAug 25, 2014 7:13:34 |
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| #16reddaemonAug 25, 2014 8:30:36 | If you ask me artificer shouldn't get cantrips at all. They never got them in 3.5. They should probably get infusions at level 1 - 5 like Paladin and Ranger as the Artificer is not a spellcaster. Artificers never got access to very many spells that are available to other classes either. I'll think more on the infusions and try to help give a balanced list of infusions based on 3.5 and 4e and the new stuff in 5e. What you put forth before seems very overpowered for them to get cantrips of spells that are level 1 spells. Shield should not be a cantrip for anyone, that's basically +5 AC every turn.
Infusion slots should be tracked differently than spell slots for purposes of multiclassing, similar to how Warlock's Pact Magic is separate, but infusions should not function like Pact Magic does.
Make Detect Magic a class feature. Also as part of the same class feature, Artificers can identify an item and attune themselves to it within the same short rest period. Call it Magical Aptitude or something. They don't need the Identify spell.
Here's how I think their Hit Die and Proficiencies should look.
Hit Die: d8 Weapons: Simple Weapons Armor: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields Tools: Thieves' Tools, Artisan's Tools Skills: Pick 2 of the following skill proficiencies: Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Perception, Persuasion |
| #17wellofworldsAug 25, 2014 8:41:00 |
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| (Reply to #14)crimfan07 |
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| (Reply to #17)crimfan07 |
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| (Reply to #16)crimfan07 |
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| (Reply to #19)Danny_Montanny |
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| #22NN1Aug 25, 2014 11:26:03 | I don't think we should even touch artificer until we get some more info on magic item creation. Magic item creation was always an integral part of the artificer class. While I understand magic item creation might end up down-played in this edition, they still have magic items and we're talking about artificers. Currently the only magic item we can create is a healing potion that is made with an herbalism kit. Perhaps give the artificer the ability to use a potable alchemy lab (new item?) to make healing potions, acid, alchemist fire, poison, antitoxin, etc. and maybe the ability to craft faster and/or at a discount at higher levels. Maybe not all of this at level one, but come on, we're talking an artificer, they should be able to make things occasionally.
Magic item creation could end up being like one of the other permanent spell effects, where it becomes permanent if you cast the spell on the area or item every day for a period of time (like a year, but it depends on the spell). It wouldn't be for every spell, but a few new artificer spells could have such an effect.
I definitely think that an artificer should gain proficiencies in more than one artisan's tool set, possibly gaining it at later levels.
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Just making it a bard school won't work since you don't make the selection at level 1 and you don't want cha based casting (switching from cha-based casting to int-based casting would be especially jarring). Wizard is the only one with int-based casting, but multiple skills, armor, and weapon proficiencies is beyond the scope of the low level arcane school power level.
Rogue might work, since artificers actually had quite a bit of skill overlap with rogues in 3.5 (I don't know or care about 4E), and gaining int-based casting at 3rd isn't especially jarring. Still, there is only so much you can add in the rogue archetypes. Maybe model it on the arcane trickster, but with int-based casting, and a focus on a different sub-set of spells rather than illusion and enchantment (I'd go with transmutation spells if you don't want to custom-build a new spell list, possibly forced to be cast into an item rather than directly on a character for buffs and ignoring direct attack spells, much like the infusions in 3.5 Eberron). The enhanced mage hand could be replaced by the crafting proficiencies/special abilities to make basice magic and alchemical items (as said above, acid, healing potions, basic poison, etc.) or, alternatively, an enhanced form of mending that allows MINOR alterations to an item. A create homunculus ability, likely at low-to-mid level, would work, likely re-skinning find familiar and possibly improving it similar to how a chain warlock does. Higher level artificesshould have some way to make permanent or semi-permanent lesser magic items, though it shouldn't be at the expense of being able to participate in combat and adventuring normally. I might suggest adding some rituals to the spell list or give certain spells, castable as rituals, for free, sucth as identify and detect magic (or a similar out of combat ability to identify magic items in some manner). A mid or high level ability could be to re-forge magic items into different ones of equal value (the utility of this ability will vary based on magic item accessibility, but it lets the artificer make new, useful things without flooding a game with new magic items). Definitely, I'd want to limit the offensive spell options available to an artificer to fit the style (unless maybe we enforce an arcane focus and head in the wand-ificer direction).
I'm still shaky on the rogue artificer archetype, especially higher level abilities, and I don't have the book with me, but it seems like it could work. Really though, I think an all new artificer class with slightly different abilities would be better. The scary part about adding radically different spells to the spell list, however, is the fact that certain classes can grab spells from an arbitrary class list, possibly leading to unintended consequences (especially with the magic initiate and ritual caster feats). |
| #23crimfan07Aug 25, 2014 16:17:21 | I made an RTF that has a list of spells we thought would be good for this variant.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1702452/bardificer_spells.rtf |
| (Reply to #13)UnadvisedGoose |
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| (Reply to #24)crimfan07 |
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