Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarrion May 20, 2015 7:45:07	There is a prevalent notion that the Barbarian Frenzy ability has some issues that make it a less than worthwhile option. I happen to share this opinion and have come up with a "fix" I'd like to run by the boards. Feel free to post your own ideas in addition to critiquing this one. FRENZY: Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. When you use the Reckless Attack ability, your Strength-based melee attacks deal an additional 2 damage and your critical hits knock the target prone for the duration of the frenzy. My reasoning: the basic idea behind Frenzy is to add damage to the barb. A bonus action attack is a big damage boost, but the exhaustion penalty outweighs the benefit. By instead adding a small flat damage boost, we can lessen the offsetting penalty. Luckily, we can utilize an already existing Barbarian mechanic for this while reinforcing the intended flavor of the Frenzying Barbarian at the same time. This also frees up the bonus action so that Frenzy plays more nicely with GWM, Polearm Master, and Two-Weapon Fighting. Thoughts?
#2 Tempest_Stormwind May 20, 2015 8:16:50	Is this on top of the existing Frenzy, or replacing it? You mention exhaustion, but the text here is standalone.
(Reply to #2) Endarrion	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#4 Suppoko May 20, 2015 10:47:23	Level 1 of exhaustion is really not a big deal IMO, 1 extra attack per round far exceeds the disadv to ability checks considering that the duration for freny can last quite a while depending on the encounter. You took away quite a bit of overall damage and the level of exhaustion in favor of +2 (possibly +4) and a no save knockdown? I would rather have the extra attack personally.
(Reply to #4) Endarrion	Suppoko wrote:
#6 AaronOfBarbaria May 20, 2015 11:15:26	I think people are stressing too much on the exhaustion level - after a certain level, if you've got a party with good synergy, the exhaustion fades away before it becomes a big deal.   The one thing I have thought might actually be a decent house-rule for those that are really worried about exhaustion taking their barbarian power-houses down too many notches is this: exhaustion levels gained because of frenzy do not have their penalties applied while the barbarian is raging.
(Reply to #6) Endarrion	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#8 Tempest_Stormwind May 20, 2015 12:30:01	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #5) Suppoko	Endarrion wrote:
(Reply to #9) Endarrion	Suppoko wrote:
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	Endarrion wrote:
(Reply to #10) Suppoko	Endarrion wrote:
(Reply to #11) Endarrion	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #12) Endarrion	Suppoko wrote:
(Reply to #13) AaronOfBarbaria	Endarrion wrote:
(Reply to #15) Endarrion	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#17 Tempest_Stormwind May 20, 2015 17:26:48	Endarrion wrote:
#18 Suppoko May 20, 2015 17:45:06	to me it's the difference of getting something for nothing (being a barb gets frenzy) and paying for it (choosing a feat instead of +2.) You're making a mountain out of a molehill, I don't know what game your in clearly but if you feel the need to have to frenzy more than once or twice a day then you need to talk to the DM about scaling back the encounters. I think the frenzy should be limited to use on the BBEG or his strong henchmen not just a group of bandits or what have you.
(Reply to #18) Endarrion	Suppoko wrote:
#20 Endarrion May 21, 2015 6:47:17	Tempest wrote:
#21 Mommy_was_an_Orc May 22, 2015 7:32:03	I think the general problem of Frenzy is threefold: Polearm Weapons are a really great option for a Barbarian anyway - it makes it a little easier to reach opponents and it works really well with reckless attack in that you can attack an opponent without being next to them - so you can beat them up, then move away if they don't drop. It is a really good idea to have a bonus action option that you can use every combat. Preferably every round of every combat. And Frenzy really only does that for 1-2 combats out of the 5-8 combats per day. So that's 3-7 combats where it would be good to have a bonus action - Polearm Master fits that bill all the time and Great Weapon Master, once you hit 5th level, does it about 19% of the time unless you drop an opponent at which point it is 100%. That Polearm Master also grants a reaction attack option is just amazing. Rage itself is a bonus action, which means that at the point in time that you're likely to get your bonus action attack, you're also at the point where Great Weapon Master means it is likely you drop an opponent in that round and almost certainly by round 3. That's problematic because in most combats, basically, Frenzy represents a single attack. ---- Here's what I'd do: Frenzy: If you are damaged, you may enter Rage as a reaction. You can also choose to damage yourself with damage equal to your level without using an action(aka biting the shield), which then lets you enter Rage using your reaction. As a Berserker, you may choose to replace the Barbarian bonus to damage chart as follows - at levels 1-8, you do 1d6 instead of +2, levels 9-15, do 1d8 instead of +3, and at levels 16-20, do 1d10 instead of +4. This is considered a weapon die for purposes of critical hits - for Brutal Critical, you may choose from either your actual weapon die or this weapon die for purposes of extra dice on a critical hit. Mindless Rage: You can't be charmed or frightened while Raging(etc...). You can choose to change your resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from Rage to Psychic Resistance by making a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action once per Rage. That seems fun and flavorful and in keeping with Berserker. You do a little extra damage all the time, you frenzy when hurt(and can hurt yourself), and you can do even more damage, but that has its own risks.
#22 Suppoko May 24, 2015 6:54:49	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
(Reply to #22) Endarrion	Suppoko wrote:
#24 Endarrion May 24, 2015 19:14:30	Here's another fix I was thinking about: When you reach 3rd level you can enter a Frenzy. When you do so, you can make one additional attack whenever you take the attack action on your turn. You can make this additional attack only once/round. You must take a short or long rest before using this ability again. I can't decide if this is a good enough once/short rest ability, but it seems to address the issue. Here's a more complicated fix. Third level frenzy: When you rage you can decide to Frenzy. Any enemy you hit with a strength-based melee attack must succeed on a Wis save against a DC = 8+prof+Str or become frightened of you until the end of your next turn. You gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls against frightened creatures. This increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 20th level in this class. Once/short rest. 10th level: While Frenzying, you can dash as a bonus action. You must end your move within melee reach of a hostile creature. That kind of switches the 3 and 10 abilities but keeps the flavor. I actually really like this, but I'm not sure if it's super abusable. The dash ability is to keep the flavor of rampaging across the battlefield and to help keep the Barbarian raging. Maybe switching it to a bonus to AC against opportunity attacks would be better.
#25 Lilika May 24, 2015 23:56:18	First things first it's been said that a Barbarian doesn't do more damage than a Fighter, this is not true.    http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4108666   According to this thread the Berserker is the top dps, beating the Fighter. Frenzy combined with Reckless Attack this makes the Barbarian one of the most damaging single class.   Yes exhaustion is bad, but I see you only using this ability when things are looking bad or, you are facing the big bad guy at the end of the dungeon.  So probably 1 to 2 times a day.  If you read the Barbarian guide on these forums you will see that the barbarian is risk vs reward (at least the Berserker path, not so much the Totem path).     Also while it has been said that Polearm Master is better than this, that may be true, but you only have 5 feats, and Polearm Master conflicts with several of the Berserker Path abilities already (Frenzy and Retaliation).  A polearm does less damage than a 2 hander, and I would see a Berserker choosing other feats such as 3 ability boosts, Wisdom Resilience, and Lucky, just to name of few over Polearm Master.   I am planning on building a Barbarian, Frenzy is the one ability that has me leaning toward the Path of the Berzerker.  Part of the fun of the Frenzy ability is knowing when to and when not to use it.  With great power comes great responsibility.
#26 Mazzy May 25, 2015 2:01:06	Lilika wrote:
#27 Noon May 25, 2015 2:55:13	Endarrion wrote:
#28 Saeviomagy May 25, 2015 5:15:33	I think the issue is that at some point bonus action (attacks and otherwise) became really easy to get, to the point that basically everyone has one if they want it. Make frenzy an extra attack instead of a bonus attack and it becomes very appealing.
#29 Mommy_was_an_Orc May 25, 2015 8:26:24	Suppoko wrote:
(Reply to #29) Endarrion	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote: