I recently posted a Wizard Guide, and I rated a bunch of blast spells (especially from levels 4-8) quite poorly. I am now starting to get a number of people referencing this very good Wizard guide - specifically the graphs at the end plotting spell damage. He goes into WAY more detail than I do regarding spell damage, and if you are planning to build a wizard that focuses on blasting, his guide is the best there is, but I do note that his graphs plot damage against spells of similar area, so there is a perspective I think is missing that I wanted to show.
The point normally made is that "Spell X does more damage than Fireball using a Y level slot, so why rate it so poorly?"
It's a good question, but the answer is easier to explain with a little graph of my own. I've used the same format as TheBigHouse's excellent guide, but I've put a number of "standout" spells on the same graph.
I've also added a line that I call the "Good Damage" line. It connects the damage of fireball using a 3rd level slot and the damage of Meteor Swarm using a 9th level slot with a straight line. This is represented by the blue line. Spells that do damage equal or above this line I consider good damage for the level. Those that fall below the line just don't fit into the "top" blast spell damage IMO.
I realize the plot points on the Blue Line at 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8th level are all theoretical. There are simply no blast spells that reach those points, which is why I don't think using these slots for blasts is as effective.
I should also point out that the Delayed Blast Fireball line assumes a full minute of "powering up" the spell.
Finally, I should mention that I'm using the same method to calculate damage as the aforementioned guide. I encourage you to compare this graph to the ones presented in the guide. These spells look quite different on this graph don't they? (The plot points are the same values - just the perspective has changed, with the exception of Cloud of Daggers which I think was plotted incorrectly on BigHouse's chart. Damage should increase 5 per level - not 10 per level)
So without further ado, I present:
EDIT: Now the chart begins at Magic Missile level 1 as it was explained to me that Fireball skews the results (not sure I see it, but OK)
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Ok, I really believe, that blast spells shine when dealing with many enemies.
And they do. They are not as good as well placed hard disables, but they are doing a good enough job. Especially, because they don´t require concentration.
For the Good Damage line, what is your reason for starting with Fireball and ending with Meteor Swarm? I'd be interested to see the full Fireball line.
Two other observations:
- Damage isn't always the only quality of a spell; e.g. Erupting Earth creates difficult terrain.
- CoD is a concentration spell, allowing one to potential add its maintained effect to future spells cast.
EDIT: also, how many enemies per blast are we assuming?
So what you're saying is...
"Blast Spells should be for recreation only"?
I agree.
However, Erupting Earth isn't a damage spell. It's a no-concentration permanent difficult terrain spell that also happens to deal damage.
It's better compared to Grease, since that falls into the same category of no-concentration difficult terrain creation. Erupting earth is twice as large but can't cause the prone condition, but instead deals damage. Is that worth a slot two levels higher?
Since prone is more of a minor inconvenience in 5e - it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunities and it doesn't even take their entire movement to dispel - you could argue that having to walk across 20' of (40' of movement) difficult terrain is as bad as having to walk across 10' of difficult terrain and falling prone along the way (35' of movement) except the former is guaranteed.
At the very least, I like Erupting Earth more than Fireball, even if it's got greasy redundancy with a first level spell.
durntaur wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
I don't think fireball should be used as the baseline for this experiment. It was intentionally made more powerful than recommended for a spell of its level (p.283-4 DMG) because it's an iconic spell
edit: Sorry tempest, didn't realize you already said as much in your first post.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
So... you took the top 2 blast spells in the game, and showed that everything else is worse.....
Yes.
Anyways, blast spells are situational. You only use it on a group of enemies.
mellored wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
mellored wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
You're missing a few things:
The best blast spells change once you get access to Cha or Int mod added to damage/spell types. Suddenly Scorching Ray and Storm Sphere get WAY better for blasting.
Other potent combos are Wall of Fire + EB with knockback. Anything that lets you add your +Int/Cha mod ups the minimum damage significantly. Combo a Melfs Min Met (bonus) + Scorching Ray = minimum 5 chances to add Int mod (+25 total) at level 8.
RulesJD wrote:
I think, damage of blast spells is where it needs to be. Just remember: enemies don´t level up, just because you do. 28 Points on average may kill minion type enemies in one go.
If you think those damage spells are too weak still, use the optional system shock rule in the DMG. It is not unrealistic to do half a creature´s maximum damage with one go. This may easily result in a nice extra effect and up the efficiency of blast spells significally.
You also need to remember, that there may more than one player blasting. 3rd level spells are easy to come by. Two spellcasters blasting everyone with a fireball may end the encounter immediately.
Also worth remembering that monster Dex saves flat-line, so those blasty spells will do consistent damage across high and low CR.
intently wrote:
Hey Treantmonk. Thanks for the nod. I want to say I totally agree with your analysis. I find my self kind of torn on it. We all know that fireball is godly when you hit level 5 and trails off after that, and pretty much every other spell mirrors that trail off.
Also, as others have said, blast spells are still fantastic for dealing with large groups. I'm going to link this post into my guide, so those to are intersted can see the excellent work you have done here.
TheBigHouse wrote:
Say Treantmonk, what are your thoughts on the Shatter spell? While it doesn't exactly dethrone fireball, it's a level lower, targets a different save, and deals a damage that is less commonly resisted.
My personal opinion for blaster-type wizards is that you generally are best off grabbing a few low-mid level spells that cover several elements and types of areas, then scaling them up as needed. Unfortunately our evoker is something of a youngling and seems to believe that being an evoker means only grabbing and casting blasty spells. I'm trying to educate him, but for now I'll just be happy if I can keep him from specializing himself into uselessness. (Why are young players all frikking pyros?!? Don't they know that every man and his dog is resistant to fire? Actually, they probably don't.)
FuelDrop wrote:
FuelDrop wrote: