Bow Bond: An Eldritch Knight’s guide to Archery
Table of Contents:
- Introduction
- Attributes and Class Features
- Races, Feats, and Backgrounds
- Spell choices
- Equipment
- Multi-classing and builds
I’ll be using the standard rating system
Red Don’t do it. There are much better ways to get there.
Purple Ew. Niche or RP concept choice only.
Black Okay. Middle of the road, or only good for specific builds or campaigns.
Blue Good choice. Recommended options, you’re almost always better off with these choices.
Sky Blue Pick me! Best options for most builds and games.
Gold take it.
- Introduction
This is a basic guide to a flexible build. These builds support a wide variety of concepts from the agile in your face with a hand crossbow, to the Wood-elf Scout or a Halfling Sniper. Essentially any character concept that involves a bow or a crossbow can follow this guide and add on whatever RP concepts work for your character.
Mechanically this is a chassis for any martial ranged character with a dash of spellcasting focused on buffs and utility. There are two basic early options that will drive a many of your choices, Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter. After that you’re really just accumulating the pieces as they come.
You’re going to be taking Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter at the first opportunity. First level for Variant humans, 4rth level for everyone else. The Crossbow Expert is going to go Hand Crossbow and shield and be a close to melee range character. Sharpshooter builds go better with Stealth concepts and are generally a backline character.
What this guide isn’t. If your concept is spellcaster with a Bow, you’re in the wrong place, sorry. If Spell Save DCs or Cantrip DPR is a concern, move along.
Strengths
- RP versatility. This build works for almost any bow or crossbow concept.
- Attribute flexibility. This build needs Dex and that’s it. Everything else is flavor.
- Single target damage, and Multi-attacks
- Tactical flexibility. Ranged damage, mobility, Hit Points, AC, and utility. You’re going to wreck a few encounters for your DM
- Front line or Back line combatant depending on what your group needs.
- Be a Ranger without ever taking a level in Ranger.
Weaknesses
- No AoEs.
- Possibly a weak spellcasting stat
- No melee weapon means no opportunity attacks if you find yourself on the front line.
Crunch vs Concept
I'm of the opinion Concept > Crunch, but within that conceptual framework you should be squeezing in every mechanical advantage you can. For ranged characters, currently, Crossbow Expert is about as mechanically manditory as you get. Its effectivly a +2 to AC, Bonus Attack a round, and lets you use ranged weapons in melee without penalty. Its right up there with Sentinal and Polearm Master in how game changing it is for a character. I sincerly hope that down the road Archers get some love so the iconic Archer concepts are mechanically equal to the Crossbow users. D&D is all about iconic. In the mean time, Hand Crossbows > all other ranged weapons.
Edit: Thank you to all the folks taking time to comment below. Several suggestions have been incorporated into the guide.
2 Attributes, Class Features and Skills
Attributes
One of the main strengths of this build is you only have one Attribute that matters.
Dexterity – this is the one. Start with a 14 if you have a +2 or +0 from Race. Start with a 15 if you have a +1 from Race.
Strength – 8 is all you need.
Intelligence – it is your spellcasting stat, if you’ve got nothing better to do go ahead and grab a 14 here. Otherwise, seriously a 10 is fine if you’ve got other priorities for your concept.
Wisdom and Constitution – Hit points, saves, skills. If your concept doesn’t drive you to put stats elsewhere, bump these up. You can get by with 10s though if you have too.
Charisma – if it fits your character concept go ahead with the right background you can easily be the party face, otherwise 8.
Class Features Fighter / Eldritch Knight
Armor and Weapon – You have them all, really doesn’t get better.
Hit Points – d10 ftw.
Saving Throws and Skills. Could be worse, but nothing great.
Fighting Style Archery - If you don’t take Archery you’re reading the wrong guide here.
Ability Score Improvement – or why you’re not a Ranger
Extra Attacks – why you’re not a Ranger part 2.
Second Wind, Indomitable – all good things.
Action Surge – Nova round, recharges on a short rest.
Spellcasting – Buffs and utility found here. See spell selection section for details.
Weapon Bond – Better than herpes I guess. Bond your favorite bow and a throwing dagger. A lot of what you do works with a throwing dagger so if you ever find yourself out of Ammo you can throw a dagger and pop it back to you.
War Magic, Improved War Magic, Eldritch Strike – You’re not a spell caster, don’t worry about these. If/when they kick in they’re a tiny drop of gravy on the crappy situation you’ve found yourself in.
Arcane Charge – Not bad, but tied to your Action Surge limits this one.
Skills
First off your fighter choices:
Acrobatics Dex based skill, take this above your other Fighter choices.
Perception Most tested skill in the game. If your concept doesn't lean to anything else, this is the default choice.
Insight Social version of Perception. If your campaign is more social than dungeon consider Insight.
The other fighter class skills I would consider only for concept reasons, or if you've got a high matching stat and a low Wisdom.
Non-class Skills:
Stealth So many good things about starting a fight from far away while hiding.
Slight of Hand Dex based skill so you're good at it. Take it if you can.
Deception and Persuasion Social skills, if you're not the party face then Deception and Persuasion
3 Races, Feats, and Backgrounds
Races
Variant Human : The clear winner. Get the feat of choice for you build, grab a skill, melt faces.
Wood Elf : Excellent choice for Stealth or nature themed concepts.
Lightfoot Halfling : Another great choice for stealthy characters or crossbow builds.
High Elf +2 Dex never wrong. Int and bonus cantrip for anyone wanting to focus more on spellcasting
Half Elf Party Face, skill Monkey, and bonus to two off stats of choice.
Stout Halfling, Forest Gnome, Human: They buff dex, and depending on your character concept are decent choices.
Pretty much everything else Unless it’s a core part of your character concept, take a race that buffs dex. But if you’re set on a Dragonborn with a Bow you can make it work, just not as well.
Crossbow built Feats
Crossbow Expert Take this with your first possible choice.
Sharpshooter I'd take this after getting Dex to 20.
Shield Master Evasion plus. Can't go wrong.
Resilience (Wisdom) Nasty effects, grab this at some point.
War Caster Warcasting does a couple nice things for melee builds. This is an Archery guide. That said, for Crossbow Experts that make their living on the front lines this gives you an Oppourtunity Attack.
Skulker has great synergy with Sharpshooter, but if you're spending your time in or near the melee scrum this becomes a late pick or skipable.
Tough, Lucky, Mobile good later picks if you're not bumping an off stat.
Feats for Archer Builds
Sharpshooter Your main DPS booster, take it early.
Skulker has great synergy with Sharpshooter. Wood-elf and Lightfoots can put this one off or skip it completely in some games. Any other stealthy-Sharpshooter build should grab this by 8th level. If you're not sneaky this becomes much less useful.
Magic Initiate For Hex, and a couple more cantrips. Magic Initiate if you dip rogue 2 or have other uses for your bonus action.
Mobility Get out of melee without spell slots! If your DM allows re-training of feats Variant Humans should grab this at 4, swap out at 8 for Skulker. Pick this back up later. Other races can if putting off 20 Dex till 12th level doesn't bother you.
Resilience (Wisdom) Nasty effects, grab this at some point.
Crossbow Expert WTH right? Yeah, but the whole lets you fire in melee thing works for any ranged weapon so this is one option for dealing with being in melee, but you've got better.
War Caster is for melee builds. If you have a bow, you need to get out of melee.
Tough, Lucky good later picks if you're not bumping an off stat.
Backgrounds
For Variant Humans, Multi-classers, or don’t care about stealth skill this is a concept choice.
If you have a Stealth Concept, and didn’t take Variant Human or Half-Elf, and your DM is a jerk and doesn’t allow custom Backgrounds you are stuck with either Urchin or Criminal Backgrounds to pick up Stealth. Criminal variant Spy sorta works for scout concepts. Urchin works for outdoorsy/loner concepts if you pick a Wood Elf city or similar. If you’re planning on Multi-classing Rogue you can pick up Stealth too, that also opens up all backgrounds.
If you don’t have a Stealthy character concept, or can get Stealth some other way (Race, Multi-class, custom Background) then do whatever you want here.
Default recomendations:
Urchin Two Dex based skills, two useful tool proficiencies, flexible concept that works for the standard orphan adventurer concept. No reason it wouldn't work for a outdoorsy background as well. Swap city for forest and carry on.
Criminal Hello other Stealth Background.
Outlander gets you tracking from the survival skill and wilderness survival as a class feature. *poof* you're a ranger!
Charlatan, Noble, or Guild Artisan if you're the party face.
Sailor, Soldier - gets you skills you can take as a fighter and Athletics isn't likely something you'd want.
Sage Int based skills, if you're pumping Int and have a heavy spellcasting concept than Sage
Acolyte, Entertainer concept choice only.
Hermit, Folk Hero you're better off tweaking the flavor of some other background.
4 Spell Choices
Or why Int 10 is just fine for an Arcane spellcaster. We’re taking buffs first, utility second. You’ve got most of your character resources pumping ranged combat. You should always be better off shooting your bow than casting a cantrip. You’re in a crazy situation otherwise.
First off big thanks to Leugren for this:
Abjuration and Evocation Spells Available to Eldritch Knights (http://community.wizards.com/comment/51251591#comment-51251591)
Huge help to have all these in one spot.
You do get to change out one spell per level (with some restrictions), so if you’re not using a spell dump it for something else. At 8th, 14th, and 20th you can pick from any school, other spells known need to come from the abjuration or evocation schools. Note, at 13th level you’re going to drop your 8th level spell choice for Hasten . You can pick it back up at 14th, or pick another 3rd level spell from any school.
Ultimately we’re here for Hasten . We get it at 13th. What to do until then?
Cantrips I generally agree with the ratings found here
Thanks to FluffyBunbunKittens for the list, a few specifics that I’d like to mention.
Mending – You have a DM that rolls to see how many Arrows break after each combat? Take this cantrip and tell him to nevermind. Also, utility.
Minor Illusion – Instant cover for stealth.
Any Damaging Cantrip You're going to be Attacking, not spell casting. However there really isn't much else going on here so it won't hurt to grab your favorite.
5 Equipment
At this point really the only Equipment choices you need to think about are Armor.
If Stealth is important to you:
16 Dex:
At Level one. Studded Leather or Chain shirt both start you at 15 AC.
Starting at Level 3 Mage Armor gets you 16 AC.
400 GP Breast Plate, also 16 AC. Or if you happen to loot one along the way, this can save you a spell slot.
At 18 Dex
Studded Leather and Breastplate are 16 AC
Mage Armor is 17 AC
So unless you've got magic armor, Mage Armor is the better choice. Personally I'd keep a suit of studded leather stuffed in a backpack just in case.
At 20 Dex
Studded Leather is 17 AC
Mage Armor is 18 AC
If Stealth matters to you, Mage armor with a Studded Leather back up is probably the way to go. But if you haven't bumped dex yet and there is no magic armor a Breastplate gets your 16 AC.
6 Multi-classing and Builds
Some sample build ideas.
Human Demon Hunter. Trained to find evil wherever it hides. A swirling cloak and the snap of a crossbow are last images of a Demon Hunter’s target. The Demon Hunter can stand shoulder to shoulder in the front lines, or move around the battlefield taking out high value targets.
Race Variant Human; Class Fighter; Background Acolyte
Level 1 Attributes Str 8; Dex 16; Con 14; Int 12; Wis 15; Cha 8
Skill proficiencies: Stealth, Insight, Religion, Acrobatics, Perception
Starting AC 17 , Leather, shield, Dex. Starting HP 12
Progression:
1 Crossbow Expert
4 +2 Dex
6 Sharpshooter
8 +2 Dex
12 Resilient Wisdom
14 Shield Master
Notes and Light Maths:
Cantrips vs Weapon attacks needs to be commented on, specifically when you would want to use cantrips vs a weapon attack. The most likely cantrips you'll be considering are Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp. Both scale up the same, 1-4 1d8; 5-10 2d8; 11-16 3d8; 17+ 4d8. Most of the time a fighters Multi-attack feature is going to overshadow this, but there are times to consider it.
For the purposes of this exersise I'm going to assume Human with Crossbow Expert at 1, Sharpshooter at 4, 16 starting Dex and Int. Maxing Dex at 8th, maxing int at 14th. This is a spellcasting focused build. Pure theory crafting DPS, I wouldn't actually recomend that progression.
So, Cantrips
Level 1 and 2: No Cantrips.
Level 3 and 4: +5 to hit, 1d8 damage and debuff. - Note, still have bonus action.
Weapon
Level 1 to 3: +7 to hit, 1d6+3 damage, two attacks per round (action and Bonus action)
Level 4: +2 to hit; 1d6 +13 damage, two attacks per round (acion and Bonus action)
So really at no time 1 to 4 would you throw a cantrip when you could be making a weapon attack. Also, you see the insanity of Crossbow Expert plus Sharpshooter at low levels. Sharpshooter, with its huge static damage bonus and accuracy penalty has crazy synergy with your team. Bless, Fairy Fire, any one granting Accuracy or Advantage to a Sharpshooter is going to make a DM cringe.
Level 5 ; Multi attack vs 2d8, Multi Attack wins. However, if you're in a situation where you can make a single weapon attack *or* throw a cantrip (friendly mage throws haste?) :
Cantrips
+6 to hit, 2d8 damage and debuff. - still have bonus action.
Weapons
+3 to hit, 1d6+13. Triggers bonus action attack if you didn't use your action to multi-attack for some reason.
So it depends. Didn't trigger your bonus action attack? Weapon attack, bonus attack. Really want to land the debuff? Cantrip. Accuracy buff running? Weapon attack. Best damage output depends on AC of target, Weapons do 16.5 per hit; Cantrips are 9 per hit. So 20 AC is essentially even, cantrips are 2.7 on average weapons are 2.4 average. 21 AC + Cantrips pull ahead by fractions. However its never more than 1.
Level 6; Weapon users pick up another +1 to hit and damage, narrowing the accuracy gap to 2 points.
Level 7: War Magic. Cantrips now trigger a bonus action attack. You already had that with Crossbow Expert when you Multi Attacked. Really this is only going to matter in rare tactical situations where casting a Utility Cantrip is more important than Multi-attacking.
Level 8: Max Dex, Cantrips still +6 to hit and 2d8 damage; Weapon +5 to hit 1d6+15 damage. At no point ever would you attack with a Cantrip over a weapon unless landing the debuff was more important than damage.
Level 9 and 10: Proficiency increase bonus to both Weapon and Cantrip accuracy at 9, a wash.
Level 11 3d8 for Cantrips. 13.5 Average damage on a hit for Cantrips. 18.5 average damage on a hit for Hand Crossbow. Better accuracy favors Cantrips vs higher AC , but again, its a less than 1 point per round on average, Weapon damage pulls ahead at medium to low AC.
Level 12 +2 Int and more Multi-attacks. At 13th you're going to be able to throw Haste yourself so you'll commonly have an action to burn on attacking where you can't multi-attack. This is where Cantrips are the strongest but again its only by 1 hit point per round vs Higer AC (23ish) targets. So, if you've picked up a +1 hand crossbow by 12th level, and it seems likely that you would have, there is no difference between Cantrip and Weapon damage in the situation that favors Cantrips the most. Weapon damage pulls ahead as AC drops or anytime you can Mult-attack.
Level 14 +2 Int, more Cantrip accuracy so in some situations you're a tiny bit better off with Cantrips. Again not much more than a point or two.
Level 17 4d8 so Cantrip average damage per hit is now 14. So as long as you've never found a magic Hand Crossbow Cantrips are a better shot because of Accuracy when you can't multi attack. Of course if you're 17th level and your fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, I have to ask, what did you do to piss off your DM?
So there you go, Cantrips vs. Attacks. Cantrips are a tiny bit better at a limited range of levels, but only if you can't multi attack, and haven't found a magic weapon. And that is maxing out your int. So by dumping Int you give up 1 or 2 points of average damage per rounds at high levels, vs high ACs, if you haven't found a magic weapon. This is why you can dump Int as a EK. You're spending 9 attribuit points at char gen and giving up two feats (or other stat boosts) to pick up a situational damage boost, that goes away in most games as you'll have a magic weapon that pulls weapon damage even with Cantrips. In general this concept works for melee EKs too, there will be a few levels where Cantrip damage is fractionally better but Multi-attack wins. Polearm Master and Two-weapon Fighting Eks are pretty much the same as Crossbow Experts in that you have the bonus action attacks. Tanky-melee-Gishy builds without the bonus action attack will see more mileage from War Magic, but that isn't the focus of this guide.
Sub-guide S.A.D.gasm - Notes for Champion or Battlemaster Ranged builds.
SAD - Single Attribute Dependancy is a beutiful thing. Ranged and Finesse fighter builds need Dex and nothing else. I focused on Eldritch Knights since they have the most mechanical choices, and most folks look at the EK and think "oh, I should max out Int too" and its really a concept choice to max Int, not a mechanical choice. Here are my quick notes on Champions and Battle Masters.
Champions at 10th take Defense , all the other non-spellcasting advice up above applies.
Battle Masters are IMO better mechanically than Eldritch Knights. Take out all the spell-casting from above and toss in Martial Adept at mid or late levels. Crossbow builds Trip and Goading attack . Archers Evasive Footwork , Goading attack and Push or Trip .
Trip is so seriously good for handcrossbow builds. Your DM will hate you the first time you walk up to the BEG, fire off trip, give yourself advantage and proceded to Action Point - Multi-attack Nova and solo the BEG in a single round.
Warcaster
Lots of comments on Warcaster, see below. IMO you'd take it for the OA it grants. Somantic components are a minor issue for an EK, in the absolute worse case scenario you're occasionally using your bonus action and the otherwise useless Weapon Bond ability to pick up the weapon you dropped to cast your spell.
Crossbow Expert
My reading of Crossbow Expert is that you get the bonus action attack with one hand crossbow. Others disagree. Check with your DM before equiping a shield.
Reserved
And... done. Off to Format.
Hi,
Interesting guide thanks. 
My 2pcs on feats:
You need war caster to use a 2 handed weapon and cast spells.
My 2cp on cantrips:
Your cantrip selection doesn't synergize at all with the war magic feature.
Mandatory cantrips in my opinion:
- Shocking grasp: allow you to move out of OA range without using the disengage action, pretty useful for a ranged character.
- Ray of frost: allows you to slow your target and kit him to death with your superior mobility.
Usefull cantrips:
- Light: light your arrow/bolt and shoot to illuminate an area or a target.
- Chill touch: healing debuff at range.
- True strike: usefull for setting up a sharpshooting attack on your next turn. Looses its interest once you can attack three times per action..
My 2cp on spells:
Once you've got haste you can retrain drakness, no need for another concentration spell.
You will stay at range most of the time, so you won't have to use Shield (keep it) and FireShield (not very useful in your build) as much as a melee EK, that frees spell slots for other uses.
You won't wear any armor? Because if you do, Magic Armor is useless. Wearing armor is great, it frees spell slots.
1st level spells:
- Thunderwave: Push back multiple targets, great utility for a ranged class. Synergizes with teleport, a must have.
3rd lvl spells:
Counterspell is mandatory for every EK, your build rely on magical buffs you can't let enemies dispell you.
A part form that there's no reason to spend a spell slot on anything but Haste.
4th level spells:
Fireshield is not very useful for your build.
Icestorm is great for your build.
To sum up:
EK Level Spell(s) learned
3 Shocking grasp, Ray of frost, Shield, Thunderwave, Longstrider
4 Any
7 Any
8 Misty Step
10 Any
11 Any
13 Haste, Counterspell
14 Misty Step
16 Any
19 Icestorm
20 Dimension Door
I suggest you fill the "Any" with utility spells you can cast before a long rest.
MightyThokk wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
Jell_Moo wrote:
EK/Wizard is a good MC because it opens up spell access and tradition abilities. Thunderwave is a decent spell even though it's a damage spell because it separates the caster and opponents from melee range with the push effect.
Kurgag wrote:
This particular guide appears to be directed at building an archer with buff spells, not a hybrid archer/attack spell caster, hence the lack of dispel magic, counterspell, or offensive cantrips or spells. (Int is even listed as a semi-dump stat, due to the lack of save DC or caster ability check spells).
However, I don't think Extra Attack just beats War Magic outright for all EKs.
At level 7, a melee Eldritch Knight could shocking grasp for 2d8 damage and attack for, let's say 1d10+4. Alternatively, they could Attack twice for 1d10 + 4 + 1d10 + 4. That's 18.5 damage in the first case or 19 damage in the second case. However, if shocking grasp has advantage, then it'd probably be more damage to use War Magic, plus you get the shocking grasp effect on the target.
In the case of an "Arcane Archer" that has similar Int and Dex scores, the comparison could be fire bolt + longbow (2d10 + 1d8 + 4) versus longbow x 2 (2d8 + 8). In this case, War Magic would do 19.5 and Attack would do 17. Assuming similar chances to hit, War Magic is slightly better damage.
By level 18, instead of doing a cantrip plus bonus action attack, the EK could substitute a higher-level spell, such as lightning bolt (28 average AoE damage) instead of 2 attacks (2d8+10, or 19 damage). It also opens up possibilities for status-affecting spells instead of strictly damage, while still retaining at least 1 bonus action attack.
Additionally, Eldritch Strike creates some synergy between the attack of War Magic and the spell being cast, upstaging the expected damage from the spell by approximately 10-20% (assuming it has a saving throw).
The ultimate utility of either style can of course vary based on the feats and other buffs the EK has, but I think a dual-stat EK can be quite capable with attack magic or counterspell. That's not really the focus of this particular guide, though, and attack magic would be sort of a bad pick for an EK with a moderate or low Int score.
I'm a little suprised you don't rank High Elf higher in the race list. High Elf was made for dex-based Eldritch Knight's. Even if you're using most of your spells as buff spells instead of attack, having the option to hit with a shocking grasp or thunderwave when needed can be very nice. The additional cantrip from the wizards list gives you one more bit of utility.
Kurgag wrote:
Magic Initiate can be a good feat for one reason: It lets you learn a level 1 spell from any class. Enjoy having Hex on that target you're shooting a bajillion times.
I know it clashes with Haste, but 1d6 per attack + disadvantage to one creature's Dex (and thus init) checks Vs an extra weapon attack.
Assuming we've Sharpshooter, a Hand Crossbow, Crossbow Expert, and are level 20, that's +17.5 vs +13.5
At level 11 that'd be +14 vs +13.5 so a lot closer, but the EK can't get Haste that early.
Because it also applies to bow builds and he mentions where things differentiate.
I would still stick with a melee build, as Intelligence with attacking cantrips and spells (Ray of frost, Magic missile, Firebolt and other bolts) already cover the ranged role. Non magic version of ranged fighter (weapon) can cope this role equally if not better.
MightyThokk wrote:
I wouldn't count Half-Elves out of good races, maybe black as those extra points can go to dex and con or dex and int. I suppose CHA does nothing for you unless you just feel like being a face. If you work the the stats a different way, a class in Ranger (2 levels), Paladin (3 levels and so unlikely with the stupid double stat requirement), or Warlock (1 level) will get you either Hunter's Mark or Hex, both of which are awesome. I especially like Hex here as you might occasionally have force a creature to save and you can make sure they have disadvantage before that.
FYI
ottolukes hamster ball.....best name ever, i shall steal it and make it my own
Ashrym wrote:
Keaerin wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
Squad wrote:
RCanine wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I kind of see it the other way, MightyThokk -- you need a feat to have a crossbow be able to keep up with a bow. Picture this if you will...
At first level, you play anything other than a human, you get no feat. Well, at this level, heavy crossbow or longbow, it's all the same as far as combat numbers are concerned. You're looking at a 1 point average difference in DPS, with the heavy crossbow edging the bow out. When you get to fourth, you can take Crossbow Expert and now your crossbow is... still the same! Okay okay, you get another attack at the next level, and now you're doing 2 points more average damage per round. Meanwhile, the bow guy gets Sharpshooter and starts ignoring cover at a low level, hitting more and doing more damage overall because, well, missing does no damage.
Now your dude hits level 8, finally gets Sharpshooter to go with his Crossbow Expert and now he's nailing dudes to the wall all the time too! But the guy with the bow just took his 2 point dex bump and... effectively nullified the crossbow guy's damage advantage. Plus he got +1 to his AC, reflex save, stealth, acrobatics, etc. Maybe you're playing an elf in heavy armor who just ignores his high dex, I dunno...
Optinally, you get to play a variant human who takes a feat at first level! Crossbow guy, you take... Sharpshooter! Why? You don't even get a second attack to make use of Crossbow Expert until level 5, and you'll have to take that second feat to catch up to the guy with the longbow and Dex bump at level 4! (Sorry if that was covered, there was a lot of WoT and I lose things).
Spiraling arguments concerning elven rogues and bards could go here, but we're still in an Eldritch Knight thread I think.
Edit: I did entirely disregard the desire to use a shield!
Honestly, I plan to just re-fluff the heavy crossbow as a great bow with the exact same mechanical effects.
MightyThokk wrote:
MightyThokk wrote:
er... so then what is the difference between Sword and board, two-weapon fighting, and a two handed weapon? Because seriously, that rulling 'effs clerics and paladins. Hard. In a place you really don't want to be 'effed.Edit: Oh.. and Rangers. Because 'eff Rangers.
MightyThokk wrote:
Isn't better a sword and board fighter with war caster and sentinel for an ek? Or better variant human, polearm master, war caster, sentinel?
Kurgag wrote:
i've given examples in your quote.
There's no confilct at all for cleric, the Holy symbol description chapter 5 states that you can use a Holy symbol on your shield. For Druid using shield, you can still use your free item intraction to free your hand and then cast a spell (as suggested in your quote) or decide to wear your totem (druidic focus) on your shield like a cleric.
We are discussing fighters casting spells without focus and using weapons in the same turn here.
Whir wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Because it specifically works with a loaded hand crossbow? I fail to see your point.
Yunru wrote:
Oh gee:
- As part of the (previous) attack action?
- As your free object interaction?
I am so stumped as to how I could possibly reload a crossbow.
Judou_Hanabi wrote:
I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct
Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
Yunru wrote:
The rule is under the rules for ammunition; at any point during an attack you can load the weapon for free. Simply start with the weapon loaded, then load it after firing.
As for why it mentions "loaded"... Because it does. Why doesn't matter when it doesn't change the outcome of what it does.
Edit . . .
Coredump00 wrote:
Whir wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
Squad wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Squad wrote:
Squad wrote:
bid wrote:
What about rogue assassin 3/ warlock 2/ ek X?
Rogue for advantage ion first round and crit on surprised enemy, warlock fo hex and 2 fluff imvocations...
Updated with suggestions, clarifications, and some very light math/proof of concept stuff.
Thanks again to everyone for their comments. Off the top of my head Yunru, Squad, Bid thanks your suggestions are incorporated. Kurgag you made me look at War Caster enough times to see that it grants an OA, so thank you for that. Sorry if I missed anyone, feel free to take credit here ; )
Comments and sanity checks esspecially welcome on the Cantrips vs attacks section. The damage calculations were pretty much eyeballed, and I'm sure the regular Character Op folks have a more robust formula.
I believe you're rating Mirror Image too low. You may like Teleporting but Mirror Image is one of the few low level Defensive Spells that stacks because it doesn't have Concentration. You cast Mirror Image and you can still cast Haste. Your survivability increases greatly and it will stack with Haste and Shield for your defenses but Invisibility doesn't stack with Haste. Either you're getting Haste or your'e getting Invisibility.
You should make Warcaster a Manditory feat before 15th level. Casting a spell (most likely a Cantrip) as an Opportunity Attack is nice as you could use Shocking Grasp then walk away during your turn. However, you need to look at the few spells per day an Eldritch Knight receives as a 1/3 caster and how quickly you'll lose concentration spells like Haste to damage at higher levels. Higher level monsters will be doing 38+ points of damage on a hit. That's a DC19 Concentration Check to keep your Haste going. When you're recasting Haste you're losing a spell slot and LOTS of attacks/DPR. You'll probably have a 12 Con giving you only a +7 to Concentration checks. You're not going to make those checks without Advantage. This is crucial when facing bosses.
If your using your spells only to buff yourself, you don't need a high Int. Starting with a 16/16 Dex/Con likely leaves you 9 points to put into other attributes. So that's a +5 to concentration checks, at level 1. Then there's the fact that Con is likely your second stat to buff (starting at level 14 if you pick up two feats first). That's a full +5 stat mod to concentration checks at level 16. So yeah, +10 to concentration checks at level 16, +11 every level after that. So you'd have to roll under an 8 (35% chance) to fail a concentration check if you're hit for 38 damage.
Sure Warcaster is useful, but it's by no means manditory.
Yunru wrote:
MightyThokk wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
OK... got a question to the OP and anyone else who is good at doing the number crunching...
I know you are a big advocate of the "Haste" spell.... which among other things gives an additional attack per turn
It is also apparent that with Crossbow Expertise builds, you are advocating taking the Sharpshooter feat as well.
With that said, are you also advocating taking the -5 to Hit for the +10 damage with each attack? If so, how reliably are you believing that you are going to hit with that large penalty?
Follow up question...
If you were to take the feat Magic Initiate for the spell "Faerie Fire" for advantage, wouldnt that increase our DPR more than the extra attack from "Haste"?
Hex increases DPR more than a single extra attack. Considering how much more effective advantage is with low modifiers, probably. But both Hex and Haste have an advantage over Faerie Fire: The opponent can't dodge them.
When you say that the opponent can dodge "Faerie Fire" are you referring to the saving throw mechanic? If so, fair enough...
But you dont address the issue of actually hitting the enemy....
You can have 100 attacks per turn with +100 damage added to each hit but if you do not hit then at the end of the round, you do 0 damage which more to my point. More attacks with more damage modifiers are nice and all are worthless if you do not hit anything because of a big penalty of -5.
Assuming the creature fails its saving throw... I have 2 chances per attack to roll high enough to mitigate the to hit penalty and actually apply damage.
Taking all things into consideration... what is better to do? I was also asking for empirical evidence to support any opinion
Well I could run you the numbers, but I don't want to. It's simple enough though. Just model the opponent's AC as 14+lvl/3. Long and short is around level 6ish the -5/+10 causes an increase in DPR.
Would have to run Faerie Fire vs Hex and vs Haste. But Haste vs Hex? Hex.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
Kurgag wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Nah, the best is to pick up Hex and have someone else cast Haste on you :P
But seriously, as a Fighter you've more than enough feats, especially Variant Human, it gives you something to fall back on and it only costs you 1 bonus action per target.
Take a human variant build of this:
Lvl 1: 16 dex, crossbow expert, 2 attacks at +7 vs AC, 1d6+3 damage each
Lvl 4: 16 dex, crossbow expert, magic initiate, 2 attacks at +7 vs AC, 2d6+3 damage each
Lvl 6: 18 dex, crossbow expert, magic initiate, 3 attacks at +9 vs AC, 2d6+4 damage each
Lvl 8: 20 dex, crossbow expert, magic initiate, 3 attacks at +10 vs AC, 2d6+5 damage each
Lvl 12: 20 dex, crossbow expert, magic initiate, sharpshooter, 5 attacks at +6 vs AC, 1d6+15 damage each or (when you run out of Haste) 4 attacks at +6 vs AC, 2d6+15 damage each
Now you've still 3 ABIs left, to spend in Con presumably, possibly Warcaster.
I fail to see how picking up Hex, at least on such an ABI abundant class, is a hardship.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Judou_Hanabi wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I wish I hadn't asked, but also relevant:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/530129211504091137
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
MightyThokk wrote:
Wanted to let you know I really liked the guide. I'm basing a battlemaster off the template.
I am also quite happy with this guide.
We had a big PVP because someone kept insulting my race and now all of our characters are dead.
Now I'm also going to make an Eldritch Knight - Archer.
So far I have the following:
The idea is to have something based on this:
I decided to go with High Elf because I really enjoy the race and I think their bonuses are relevant to my character-goal.
In this thread I have read that offensive spell-casting isn't something we should really go for, but I am wondering how that applies to my character.
My 6 rolls are as follow: 17, 17, 17, 10. 10 and 8.
That would allow me to put 17 in: Strength, Dexterity and Intellect.
The 10's could go in Wisdom and Constitution.
The -1 modifier would go to Charisma, because he's a bit arrogant.
With an Intellect-modifier of +4 does this increase the power of offensive spellcasting or do you think it would still be beneficial to only buff yourself and go with regular attacks?
I understand that spellcasting limits the Extra Attacks, but until level 11 you would be trading in one attack for one spell.
Only buff. The maths been done: You just lose too much from not getting Extra Attack.
Thank you, I've been playing for some time now and I am really happy with this path.
In other news, Elemental Evil is out and has some great new spells.
There are a few spells I find quite interesting:
Thunderclap: Cantrip AOE
Absorb Elemental: It seems to be like Shield, but against spells without attack rolls. Too bad the damage only works on melee attacks.
Catapult: Maybe not good, but I would love to catapult some stuff against the enemies.
Storm Sphere, Tidal Wave and Vitriolic Sphere have some good AOE.
We could even cast Whirlwinds.
I'm not rating them because I didn't go deep enough into this, it are just a few spells that I found interesting.
Flame Arrows. 3rd level transmutation, on the Wizard spell list. Concentration, so it doesn't work with Haste, sadly. +1d6 damage for an hour or twelve ammunition is used(whichver happens first). That could be as good as Hex/Hunter's Mark if combats aren't too long and doesn't require retargeting with your minor action. Number of ammunition allowed increases with spells lots. Hours doesn't increase so you can't leave it on someone all day like with Hex/Hunter's Mark.
Investiture
The two new walls might have some use as well.
Maximillian's Earthen Grasp as well.
Absorb Elemental works even if there is an attack roll, so that's nice. Resistance against the triggering attack and further attacks for a round isn't terrible but I agree about the sadness of only getting the damage on melee attacks.
IxidorRS wrote:
Nice guide, thank you.
I must admit, I am surprised Find Familiar isn't one of the recommended spells.
It has a lot of utility, and if you take care, you only need to cast it once and you can retrain it in to something else.
In all this talk of how awesome Haste is, I find it weird that no one has mentioned that the casting time is 1 action. How many attacks are you sacrificing to get one additional attack at subsequent turns? Of course, using Action Surge helps you capitalise on the investment quicker.
Lokiron wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
UngeheuerLich wrote:
Yunru wrote:
The reason nobody played a crossbow expert prior to 5E was because the mechanics didn't support it. There were many that wanted to, its just that the feats/powers/etc were lacking to the point of near nonexistance. The few crossbow-related abilities in 3.5 for example only came about late in the product run, and were largely inferior to using a longbow.
Again, it was an issue with player desires not being supported by the rules (I know I would have made a crossbow expert before now if there was support for it).
In 4e I had a Thri-Kreen Ranger who use a Hand Crossbow. Of course, that was because he was holding it in his second set of claws as a backup weapon.
My point is I had a character using a Hand Crossbow, even though Crosbow Expert didn't exist.
4e Rogues rocked the hand crossbow thanks to Two-Fisted Shooter. That's about it, though.
In either 1E or 2E I had a dual handbow magicuser/thief. Required some special gear to pull it off, but it was fun.
Feat Suggestion. What if they swapped out the CE bonus attack for allowing handbow reloading and Shield.
Without the shield I don't see a huge reason to follow the build.
Compare it to a Ranger with a Bow and Sharpshooter.
-Higher level spells, and way more that can be used to restrain or summon(blockers and restrainers)
-Wicked Longer Range
-Now, one might argue that it has a higher number of attack rolls, but look at horde breaker, volley, and swiftquiver. I think that a Ranger might be able to easily march a fighter in attacks. The only huge bonus is from action surge and maybe haste and I think that might be comparable to being drastically more likely to hit with the +10 from sharpshooter because you have already restrained 3 guys with entangle. Not to mention hunters mark for low level damage boost.
Lemme know what people think about the comparison. I know for a fact that most people feel the Ranger is underpowered. I tend to agree accept when it comes to building a battlefield control archer they are hard to beat.
I have a question about the emphasis on the spell Hasten.
Isn't it true that the spell only allows an extra attack with a single weapon attack? I mean it only gives one extra shot a round right?
Haste only grants you a single extra attack. That is correct. In many respects it mirrors the benefit from the Extra Attack class feature, and stacks with said.
Phorem wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Alright guys, I have this build a shot just to see the DPR in action.
I had a ton of fun. My character is a 9th level EK right now. I am starting to really plan out his future.
I playing a human. I have my DEX up to 20, and have the Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter feats.
I'm definitely getting him up to at least level 11 as a Fighter before anything else for that 3rd attack (4th if I use my bonus action).
My question is this: am I better off continuing on as a Fighter (level 12 gives me a feat; not sure what I'd use it on, and level 13 gives me Hasten, which is AWESOME), or do I multiclass into Rogue after Fighter 11?
I believe I could still use Hasten scrolls, since all Wizard spells are on my list, correct? If I go Rogue, I'm definitely going to pick up Magic Initiate at first chance for Hex. I know the Hex is only 1d6 necrotic damage, but with 4 attacks per round, it does add up.
I know Hex is discussed earlier in this thread, but my other reason for choosing it is for Sneak Attack dice. Anybody who's played a Rogue knows just how easy it really is to pick out targets for Sneak Attack damage, especially at range.
Which is a better damaging option?
Both Haste and Hex are concentration spells.
Yunru wrote:
Lilika wrote:
Hex will probably
FunkySpunk wrote:
Kalani wrote:
cowleymen wrote: