Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Shadewyn Aug 27, 2014 11:08:12	Building a damage based character across the various editions has always come down to improving one or more of the following;   Number of attacks (current winner is base line fighter in 5E with 3 bonus attacks) Accuracy of attacks or bonus to hit (+2 archery as a static bonus stands out along with various advantage abilities) Strength of attack or damage bonus (with stat cap at 20 pretty much everyone is capped at +5, with minor loophole for some spell boosts) Chance to critical hit (currently fighter champion only has this) Boost to critical hit damage (currently the barbarian only has this) In the basic PHB you can see various classes and features that once again touch on all those areas.  However the cleanup of the action economy, and restriction of customization to multiclassing for the most part has dramatically lowered the ability of folks (such as the 3E & 4E char ops) to really go wild.   Across the initial 12 classes at level 20 we see an average damage potential of about 50 a round (not that you will reach that level in all games but its an easy way to compare across all when so many of them gain their boosting features at different levels)  that possible 50 potential would be modified of course by misses and saving throws, but that just scales it back for everyone and we do not have to engage in monster modeling math.  The real average per round with be some fraction of the potential based on how hard the encounter is.   Random examples of base level 20 classes for reference in spoiler   Show For simple math assuming every character at 20 has +5 to a stat and the weapon choice average potential damage is 5 with two weapon fightng feats or range of D10 weapons.   Barbarian (bezerker) ~ three weapon attacks (extra and frenzy @ +10 each) with rage and boosted stats (@ +6 each) = 48 with boosts to accuracy and critical hit damage Bard (valor) ~ three weapon attacks  (extra and dual wield @ +10 each) with +6 from combat inspiration to ally = 36 with lots of utility spells Cleric (war) ~ two weapon attack (main and dual wield @ +10 each) with +9 from divine strike = 29 with a few bonus attacks per day and lots of utility spells and accuracy boosts Druid (moon) ~ presumably the advanced wild shapes will be the main damage form so hard to say now until more details on beasts and elementals are released Fighter (champion) ~ five attacks (4 extra and one dual wield @ 10 each) = 50 with a limited daily surge and expanded critical hit range Monk (open hand) ~ four attacks (2 extra and 2 flurry @ 10 each) = 40 with limited uses of quivering palm Paladin (vengeance) ~ three attacks (2 extra and 1 dual wield @ 10 each) +3 per attack from hunters mark = 39 with  accuracy bonus features and utility spells Ranger (hunter) ~ three attacks (2 extra and 1 dual wield @10 each) +3 per attack from hunters mark and once per turn +4 from slayer feature =  43 with lots of utility spells Rogue (assassin) ~ two attacks (normal and dual wield @ 10 each) + 35 from sneak attack = 55 with accuracy and critical hit chance boosts related to surprise and initiative Sorcerer ( wild) ~ cantrip base of 20 with metamagic to double cast = 40 with limited daily spells to roll a s many dice as possible for spell bombardment feature for boosts such as  meteor  swarm (40D6 or 140) and quickened sunburst (12D6 or 42) Warlock (any) ~ cantrip eldritch strike invocation boosted to four attacks (@ 10 each)  with + 3 per attack from hex = 52 with limited daily  attack spells and some utility Wizard (evoker) ~ empowered cantrip of 25 = 25  with a limited daily spells such as meteor swarm (40D6 + 5 or 145) but lots of utility spells
#2 Yunru Aug 27, 2014 11:26:09	Anywhere there's (variable) numbers, there's optimizing. It's the nature of such things.
#3 mellored Aug 27, 2014 11:40:32	It's possible. But you arn't going to see as big of a difference as you did in pervious editions.   For instance, a greatsword is more optimal then a greataxe. But you'll only see a few points of damage difference.     Multiclassing in general is going to be weaker then straight classes.     As for the above, you want to be an assassin, and use your action surge on your first round for the crits.
#4 rarejon42 Aug 27, 2014 11:41:42	http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4108666
(Reply to #2) Shadewyn	Yunru wrote:
#6 mellored Aug 27, 2014 12:11:09	Shadewyn wrote:
#7 IxidorRS Aug 27, 2014 12:14:38	mellored wrote:
#8 Timborama Aug 27, 2014 12:24:13	IxidorRS wrote:
#9 NN1 Aug 27, 2014 13:01:40	In any system with character options with even tangential mechanical consequence, there will ineveitably be the potential for optimization.  5E did a much better job of restricting the difference between an optimized character and the average non-optimized character, but you can still seek synergy between race and class, pick spells that are more versitile, and synergize different abilities.  The capacity for optimization will only grow as new books are released and the pool of options widens.  Even if Wizards is extremely careful, tiny opportunities for increased power accumulate over time.  3.X wasn't very balanced to begin with (it didn't necessarily set out to be, fighters started strong, but fell behind casters quickly).  A core-only druid was terrifying at mid levels, but with a library of wildshape options, new spells, and feats, the druid pretty much beat any normal class at everything with even minor optimization.
(Reply to #6) Shadewyn	mellored wrote:
#11 Psikerlord Aug 27, 2014 20:37:32	Optimizing is very possible, but the degree of minmaxing lower than some editions. Plus only phb to work with. I like the balance for now.
#12 Captnq Aug 27, 2014 21:03:14	It's balanced... but boring.   Sorry, but it is. And I'm not a player, I'm a DM. This game serverly limits my ability to do stuff unless I want to homebrew. I could always homebrew. I don't want to make up my own stuff, I want someone to work it out for me. That's why I pay money.
#13 Chakrum Aug 28, 2014 2:47:52	The game is just getting started. You bored with the balance because you came from a system with years of suppliments released that gave you many more options than when it first released. In time 5E will get more options I'm sure. I just would prefer it at a slow rate and well thought out so we avoid bloat for as long as possible.
(Reply to #13) reddaemon	Chakrum wrote:
#15 Daganev Aug 28, 2014 7:12:27	And yet others complain that there are too many options, 12 classes and 40 subclasses and the DMG isn't even out yet!
#16 Jay_Ibero_911 Aug 28, 2014 7:26:10	To be fair, every edition has been somewhat limited at the start. Even 4th edition didn't have too much in the way of options with just the PHB (although they did rapidly add to the available options with new books and with Dragon mag). Of course even with just the PHB, before it was even "officially" released, someone had optimized a build to the point of slaying Orcus in one turn....So I guess even for a new edition 5e is fairly limited...
(Reply to #16) Shadewyn	Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:
#18 Mommy_was_an_Orc Aug 28, 2014 10:02:11	Considering there's a Barbarian 5 build that can do double the damage output of a bog standard Fighter 5(and potentially triple)...and that's not considering the suboptimal builds who MC before 6th and then realize the boatload of suck that exists until extra attack/3rd level spells...   Optimizing is more than possible...
#19 Kalani Aug 28, 2014 10:07:58	reddaemon wrote:
#20 mellored Aug 28, 2014 10:21:38	Shadewyn wrote:
#21 Suzume_Stjohn Aug 28, 2014 10:47:14	As a complete side note, when I saw this thread, all I could think was, "Do you even lift, bro?!" ;) as others have stated you CAN its just a lot harder choices for smaller payout than in previous editions.
#22 Kalani Aug 28, 2014 10:52:16	I have good authority that a lot of monsters (inc. high level monsters) have AC in the 13-20 range (Cam Banks, a dragonlance author has a copy of the MM he acquired in GenCon). A 1st level character can hit such creatures with a moderate degree of success (but die on the creatures next turn, or if it has legendary actions - at the end of their own turn).    You could go your entire adventuring career with a 16 primary stat. You will miss 10% more than a character who maxed out their primary stat but will gain other advantages in compensation, such as more rounded ability scores which shore up weaknesses, increased HP (maxed Constitution perhaps), increased defenses (maxed Dexterity and or Wisdom/Constitution if wearing light armor or having the Unarmored defense ability), more feats (increased versitlity and/or specialization), and almost certainly, a combination of the above.   I have run the numbers and a 10% penalty to hit in 5E is the difference between hitting 50% and hitting 40%. This compared to in say 3.5 or 4E, with its uncapped ability scores - where the difference may be as high as 30%, meaning the difference between hitting 40%, or hitting 10%. Ability scores were much more important in the previous two editions than they are in 5E.   10% is within a margin of error. Once you take these numbers outside of whiteroom theorycrafting and into an actual game session, the advantage of a +10% accuracy will be variable depending on a large variety of factors - the least of which being the DMs choice of opponents. Some DMs prefer opponents that may have low defenses, reducing the value of the accuracy bonus. Other DMs favor monsters with nigh impenetrable defenses, elevating its importance. Most will choose a mixture. In addition to the above, you must also factor in injury, tactical positioning, spell use, debilitating effects, visibility, cover, monster abilities, and a lot of other significant variables, all of which will serve to elevate and/or lower the importance of that 10% accuracy boost within each encounter.   Ultimately, there is too many variables to gauge its importance.    For example: Having a +5 ability modifier does not help you much when the current situation imposes disadvantage on your attack roll (reason is irrelevant). If you had instead multiclassed (which delays ABIs), or had taken a feat, you may be making your attack with a +3 modifier and without suffering disadvantage, or possibly even +3 with advantage. Using a more concrete example - an enemy warlock who has filled the area with magical darkness  and has the Devil's Sight invocation.   A rogue with a +5 ability modifier will suffer disadvantage on their attack rolls due to the blinded condition, while the warlock attacks with advantage. A rogue with a +4 modifier and the Alert feat still suffers disadvantage on their attack rolls, but the warlock is no longer hitting them with advantage. If they had instead multiclassed into warlock, they may have a +3 modifier, and the Devil's Sight invocation themselves, negating the opponents advantage. If an ally is adjacent to the enemy (unless hidden, you know which square enemies are in because you can still hear them) - you would be attacking with a +3 modfiier and advantage.   This is just one example wherein the +5 ability modifier is actually a disadvantage. In 5E everything is an opportunity cost. You pay the cost to gain advantage in some situations, at the expense of other areas, more versatility, etc.
#23 Shadewyn Aug 28, 2014 14:22:43	For the feat versus ability choice think of it this way ...     16 to 20 = +2 or 10% boost in accuracy and some damage   Is there a comprable feat that boosts accuracy?  No ... so then how about +10% damage boost?   AOO feats?  maybe as they get you addtional attacks but you already have ways of doing that -5 (or 25% miss) for +10 damage looks good on paper but if you take the 4th level venomfang fight where +10 per swing would have been relevang in the starter set you can see how this feat actually lowers your damage overall against higher AC targets (which looking at the horde of the dragon queen also seems to be where the bigger stuff is that needs the extra dmage and doesnt already just die in one round). Elemental spell?  Save or Die beats this but maybe some may take it? So there really isnt a compelling damage choice   Now there are lots of neat FLAVOR choices and bells and whistles to help customize.   I think the design team was so afraid of "feat tax" that anything that did damage is so underpowered
#24 mellored Aug 28, 2014 15:33:20	Shadewyn wrote: