Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Hagaurd Sep 22, 2014 16:43:45	The point of this post is to discuss how to manipulate paladins to use charisma for the following Hit with melee attacks Dgm with melee attacks Hit with Range attacks bonus on all saves DC for spells     As I see it, there are two potential builds.  Build 1: Paladin 6, Warlock 3.  Get the tome build for warlock and pick up Shilliali (spelling is hard).    Build 2:  Paladin 6, Bard 6, pick lore bard and select shillaili and haste as your bonus spells at level 6 bard.  This build is much slower but the extra perks of inspirations and skills and expertise and spells may outweigh the warlock option.    There is a huge advantage to having only 1 primary stat in 5e, it would be maxed out after 2 stat bumps as opposed to a pure paladin who would need to bump strength and charisma to get the same effect.   Whatcha think?
#2 GladiusLegis Sep 22, 2014 17:10:19	I don't see how either build is any better in practice than a straight Paladin. Also much slower to develop.
#3 obsid Sep 22, 2014 17:43:35	I think you are takling about a lot of levels in which you have a crappy primary stat (assuming you are going to have a low str score).
#4 Hagaurd Sep 22, 2014 19:18:24	You could go level 1 paladin, then either 3 levels of warlock or 6 levels of bard, then back to paladin.  This way you are moderately effective at mid levels.
#5 Litania84it Sep 22, 2014 19:35:20	It's much better than a normal paladin if you want to take feats and are concerned with max damage output, since it's one of the few ways to get more than two attacks. Shillelagh and polearm master nets you 3 attacks keyed off cha while still holding a shield, and assuming improved smite and duelist you'll be hitting three times for 2d8+7 each.   If you're going the bard route and grab shillelagh with magical secrets, then you could also splash 3 warlock levels and get blade pact. Assuming your DM rules that invocation prerequisites are character levels and not warlock levels, you can grab lifedrinker and your attacks will be 2d8+12 each.   You can use the extra feat for resilient:con, mounted combat, defensive duelist, sentinel or any number of other goodies.
#6 GladiusLegis Sep 22, 2014 19:44:31	If you're going Paladin 17/Warlock 3, you're already one feat down from a straight Paladin. If you go 16/4, you get that feat back but lose 5th-level spells, which is a pretty big deal. And in either case you lose the Aura Improvements, which also hurts.   A straight Paladin can just as easily take Polearm Master and get those three attacks. And Great Weapon Style makes up some of that difference vs. the Shillelagh (not to mention the bigger die from glaive and halberd's main end). The damage increase from the Shillelagh build is slight at best, and not worth the stuff you give up, IMO.   From what I understand, it's become a near-consensus that Lifedrinker works off Warlock levels, not character levels.
#7 1eejit Sep 23, 2014 3:12:12	You'll still need 14 dex in Medium Armor or 15 Str in Heavy (to avoid losing speed) to get a nice AC with that. There's not really much point.
#8 Timborama Sep 23, 2014 6:26:36	1eejit wrote:
(Reply to #7) Litania84it	1eejit wrote:
#10 Hagaurd Sep 23, 2014 9:56:12	If you go the 6 paladin, 6 bard build, you can pick up haste at level with your bonus spells.  Movement will not be a problem, and your constitution savings throw will be +7/8 so you need not worry about concentration checks.  You will also be doing 4 attacks per round.  Here is a seperate rules question which pertains to paladins.  If you multiclass with a primary spell caster, can you use higher level spell slots for smite?  Because it specfically says you must burn your paladin spells but technically you don't have any paladin spell slots, only multiclass spell slots?  The same question goes for bonus spells which bards get, the wording of the bonus spells entry is you must pick spell which you can cast according to the bard spell table, but a multiclass bard sorcerer does not use the bard table, they use the multiclass table.   Could a Sorcerer 11, Bard 6 use their bonus spells to pick up forsight (9th level spell) because technically they have a 9th level spell slot or could they only pick up a 3rd level spell because according to the bard table they only have 3rd level spells?
#11 mellored Sep 23, 2014 10:14:24	The mobility feat offsets heavy armor's slow and then some.  Could be cheaper then boosting Str. Or, just be slow.  It's not the end of the world.  Warlocks get a nice ranged attack.
#12 GentlemanLoser Sep 23, 2014 10:43:24	(Assuming that Invocations have Character Level prerequisits)   Paladin, Oath of Devotion / Warlock, Pact of the Blade (third level taken at Character Level 12 for Lifedrinker)   This gives you Strength + Charisma to both hit and damage with your Greatsword.