Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrogReaver Oct 04, 2014 11:54:14	Example:  Lvl 5 rogue vs Lvl 5 fighter.   I know how to compare the classes level by level.  However, my goal is to be able to compute a single value that can serve as a comparison between all the adventuring levels of those two classes.   Does the community have a preferred method for doing this?  Or do we need to develop a system?
#2 Leugren Oct 04, 2014 12:13:56	I think you'll find it extremely difficult to abstract everything into a single meaningful value.  There are just too many variables, not the least of which is party composition.
(Reply to #2) FrogReaver	Leugren wrote:
#4 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 13:02:26	You could just average the sum of the level by level dpr, which'd you can then compare with another character's.
#5 Jell_Moo Oct 04, 2014 13:17:08	I'm a little confused here... Which class features are being included in your numbers? Also, why those particular weapons?
#6 Leugren Oct 04, 2014 13:21:15	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #4) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #6) FrogReaver	Leugren wrote:
#9 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 13:26:59	... that's not how averages work. An average balances high end damage with low end damage. If it means the fighter seems better over those two levels, that's because the fighter is better over those two levels.
(Reply to #9) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#11 Leugren Oct 04, 2014 13:28:30	FrogReaver wrote:
#12 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 13:31:06	And why are you calculating damage increases? Averaging the DPR of each level gives you the Damage Per Campaign. Averaging the percntage damage increase gives you... how much you increase per level on average?
(Reply to #11) FrogReaver	Leugren wrote:
#14 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 13:38:12	No, averaging the DPR is the best method. It gets you the average damage your character will do over the course of the campaign. There is no better way to compare the damage a character can do across a campaign. Okay, admittedly it assumes that you spend equal amounts of time on each level.
(Reply to #12) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#16 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 13:43:12	And that's why you don't just discard the level by level dpr after you've used it for calculating the average.
(Reply to #16) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #5) FrogReaver	Jell_Moo wrote:
(Reply to #14) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #18) Jell_Moo	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #20) FrogReaver	Jell_Moo wrote:
(Reply to #21) Jell_Moo	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #22) FrogReaver	Jell_Moo wrote:
#24 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 15:21:27	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #23) Jell_Moo	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #24) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#27 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 15:45:41	Yes, because your examples have been unrealistic outliers, that outside of your theorycrafting won't occur. You won't get much more feedback than "just average the DPR over levels" because that is what you are asking for, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
#28 menakles Oct 04, 2014 15:55:03	I think this thread has become a bit confused over discussion of how best to calculate DPR, but rereading it, I can see that this was not the purpose of the OP.   He is looking for a number to compare meaningfully characters damage output over the course of 20 levels. Simply adding up the DPR (howerver it is obtained) won't do as damage at higher levels is much higher and will drown out the DPR from lower levels. The data needs to be normalised. Fortunately there is an easy way to do this.   Nominate one class, fighter say, as the base class, then divide the DPR of the class you are looking at at each level by the DPR of the base class. If the DPR is less than the base class at a given level, you have a value less than 1, if the DPR is greater you have a value more than one. Summing these 20 values over the 20 levels would give a number that 'could' be used to compare classes relative to a base class. The base class would, of course, have a figure of 20. Numbers over 20 represent more DPR over the course of 20 levels than the base class, numbers under 20 represent less DPR. You could even multiply the result by 5 to give an indexed figure.   Note, I'm not saying this is a meaningful thing to do. Nor am I commenting on the OP's suggested way of calculating DPR....which I think he/she was using just by way of example... All I'm doing is suggesting a simple way of doing what the OP asked about in their original post.   Here's an illustration of what I mean in case I wasn't clear enough   LEVEL       BASE CLASS DPR(B)    CLASS X DPR(X)      X/B     1                            5                                   6                    1.2       2                            7                                   9                    1.29     3                            8                                  10                   1.25     4                          10                                  11                   1.1     5                          12                                  12                   1     6                          14                                  13                   0.93   etc.....adding the values for L1-6 gives a figure of 6.77 against the base class 6, so over the course of the 6 levels I could be bothered to type in, it out DPR's the base class by about 13%....whatever that means.
(Reply to #27) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #28) FrogReaver	menakles wrote:
#31 Yunru Oct 04, 2014 16:01:51	But the characters with higher damage at lvls 11+ are the characters better at DPR for exactly that reason. It's like saying "the average money a person will have in a lifetime favours rich people." Well no ****. Isn't that want you want anyway, to find out who does the most over the course of the campaign?
(Reply to #31) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#33 Yunru Oct 05, 2014 2:22:58	11-20 That's it gets truly deadly and the heavy hitters break away from the average. Up to level 5 all characters are roughly the same assuming they can attack with their primary stat. At level 5 Extra Attack normally tips the difference and then at lvl 11 the divide widens.
(Reply to #33) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#35 Yunru Oct 05, 2014 2:48:39	Because same damage is still nothing to sneer at, you'll just take them down slower. But in later levels when taking them down slower isn't an option, you're going to want to put out a lot of damage. Of course if you abandon the idea of having a single number to compare, just plot their DPR against level on a graph.
(Reply to #35) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #33) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#38 Yunru Oct 05, 2014 3:22:30	Your method adds unnecessary complication for no reason. That's the only complaint I can make (and be right). So yeah, go ahead, break a leg (why is that supposed to be a positive phrase?).   Although if you're looking for more than an average across the enitre campaign, as I said mapping the DPR against level for both characters produces a neat little graph.
(Reply to #38) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#40 Yunru Oct 05, 2014 3:52:08	Actually if you don't care about complexity and want to be accurate, you'd ideally work out how long each level lasts and weight the DPR for that level accordingly. For example, you're supposed to Blitzkrieg through the first 3 levels, so the DPR for levels 1 through 3 wouldn't count as much as the more prolonged levels.
(Reply to #40) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote: