Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 colemcm Nov 23, 2014 19:05:18	Not sure if this has been addressed already or not, but I had a thought regarding the type of ranged weapon used to cast these spell. Since the damage type of the weapon used determines the type of damage dealt, using alchemical items (which are non-magical) like acid or alchemist's fire allows the ranger to change the type of damage delivered by the spell. In settings like Eberron, which previously included alchemical items that dealt cold and shock damage, this makes these spells incredibly versatile.
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 23, 2014 19:47:12	acid and alchemist's fire are not ranged weapons in the strict sense - they are improvised weapons which you happen to make ranged attacks with.   That said, I say this "Sounds cool with me, if anything it is a bit of an unwise use of your resources." as my official stance as a DM.
#3 colemcm Nov 23, 2014 20:23:30	True that it's not specifically a ranged weapon, but the spell doesn't require that it be a ranged weapon. It only requires that you throw a weapon or fire a piece of ammunition and that the weapon/ammunition be nonmagical. Since an improvised weapon is a kind of weapon and it is not magical, it qualifies.   I don't see how it's unwise. The damage coding is not changed in any way, only the damage type. If you're goingup against opponents that are resistant to physical damage, but not elemental damage, it's a nice work-around. At the level required to cast these spells, the cost of either item are negligible.
#4 colemcm Nov 23, 2014 20:28:54	I think I see what you meant by a waste of resources. I didn't mean the Volley class ability, but the Conjure Volley spell. Bad choice in wording in my thread title.
#5 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 23, 2014 20:49:37	I was saying it is unwise to spend not only a spell slot, but also are effectively adding a 25 or 50 gp expended material component to the spell.   Also, the material component listed for those spell is actually "one piece of ammunition or a thrown weapon," which is why I said improvised weapons, even if you throw them, don't strictly fit the bill - of course, I'm not opposed to your reading that any weapon that you have elected to throw works, rather than only those weapons specifically designated as thrown. I quite like the visual of a character throwing their unloaded crossbow and it briefly multiplying into dozens of crossbows that crash violently into the spell's targets.
#6 colemcm Nov 23, 2014 21:07:19	By 9th level, I don't think 25 or 50 gp is all that much to spend to bypass physical damage resistance. Could be half as much if you have proficiancy in alchemist's supplies and make your own. As far as a spell slot goes, since rangers have so few known spells, anyone with this spell is most likely going to be using it anyways. The only real difference is the type of weapon/ammunition used.     Agreed on Conjure Barrage of Crossbows.
#7 colemcm Nov 23, 2014 21:14:14	I'm still not convinced on the thrown weapon account. Strictly speaking, there's no such thing as a thrown weapon. There are only weapons with the thrown property. Since the purpose of the thrown quality is to allow you to throw the weapon and since the rules for improvised weapons allow you to throw them, I think it stands without violating any rules.
(Reply to #6) AaronOfBarbaria	colemcm wrote:
#9 mellored Nov 24, 2014 5:16:30	I don't see anything that prevents improvised weapons so it seems legeit. That said, you only change the damage type, not the total damage.  So there's not a huge amount that this would be effective with.     And personally, i would throw a pie. 8d8 bludgoning damage from a rain of pie.
#10 colemcm Nov 24, 2014 7:50:22	True, but it could come in handy if you need to carpet bomb a group of trolls or werewolves.   Since the unarmed strike of a halfling monk is a weapon. . . Maybe?
#11 mellored Nov 24, 2014 7:58:07	colemcm wrote:
#12 colemcm Nov 24, 2014 7:58:36	I think we can come to an accord. All we need is one halfling monk with a pie.
#13 mellored Nov 24, 2014 8:08:41	colemcm wrote:
#14 raleel Nov 24, 2014 8:46:10	huh, with a fiery weapon (heck, a torch, i suppose) it is actually better than fireball.. bigger volume (33510.32 ft^3 vs 100531 ft^3), more damage (8d8 beats 10d6)
#15 colemcm Nov 24, 2014 10:05:58	True. It's received long after fireball is though. By the time they get it, the wizard's dropping meteor swarm.   It could also be used with weapons with specific metallic properties, like silvered or adamantine.
#16 mellored Nov 24, 2014 10:19:11	colemcm wrote:
#17 Mommy_was_an_Orc Nov 24, 2014 10:26:58	colemcm wrote:
#18 colemcm Nov 24, 2014 10:32:44	That's true. I based this assumption off of the spell description, which states that it creates identical weapons, which implies that the weapons hitting them are also made of the same materials.   Rereading the description of alchemist's fire leads me to believe that it would not work with this spell, since it deals its damage at the beginning of the each of the enemies turns and the spell desription states that the weapons hit and then disappear. As Raleel mentioned though, a torch would work for fire damage. They're also a lot more affordable.
#19 colemcm Nov 24, 2014 10:40:19	Bards could get Barrage at 6th (if they're college of lore) and Volley at 10th. However, I don't think that it's unbalanced. The damage of Barrage is significantly less than a fireball and there are a lot more effective ways to to use a 5th level slot than a damage spell.
#20 LordOfTheChance Nov 24, 2014 10:44:23	mellored wrote:
#21 LongTimeLurker Nov 26, 2014 15:36:39	LordOfTheChance wrote:
#22 mellored Nov 27, 2014 8:08:37	it's 1 pie, magically multiplied.
#23 Noctaem Nov 27, 2014 8:11:51	LongTimeLurker wrote: