Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 16:34:23	Clearly, for crit fishing one wants 15 levels of Fighter.  I'm pretty sure that the Crossbow Expert Feat, using a hand crossbow, maximizes my number of chances to hit.  Please correct me if I am wrong.   The question is what to do with the other 5 levels.  Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and War Cleric all have their pros and cons, but I am finding it difficult to determine a clearly superior choice.  In my estimation, gaining extra attacks would have priority (slightly favoring the Fighter), followed by gaining/maintaining advantage and finally damage (favoring the Rogue?).   Am I on the right track, or am I missing something completely obvious?
#2 Koga305 Sep 01, 2014 16:42:13	You want extra damage dice on crits because they are doubled. So Rogue might be a good option (Sneak Attack), or Paladin for Divine Smite.
#3 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 16:50:26	Koga305 wrote:
#4 Jay_Ibero_911 Sep 01, 2014 17:04:26	Chakravant wrote:
#5 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 17:13:36	Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:
#6 Noctaem Sep 01, 2014 17:38:58	Why would you not get the large static from Sharpshooter when you use SA?  I don't see any reason why you wouldn't.  Furthermore you want the Lucky feat since it allows more d20 rolls and so more crit fishing but also it negates advantage vs yourself (incoming attack) and disadvantage vs your enemies (you making attacks).  It's very powerful.
#7 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 17:49:25	Noctaem wrote:
#8 Jay_Ibero_911 Sep 01, 2014 17:50:15	Chakravant wrote:
#9 AndrewJO Sep 01, 2014 18:13:13	Lvl 20 Fighter Champion gets 4 attacks and crits on 18+. If I were you I would just stick with the Fighter and take the Crossbow Expert feat and Dual Wielder feat.  That way you get 8 attacks per turn that all crit on 18+.  If you had taken the Archery Fighting Style, I'd take the Sharpshooter feat as well, that way you could add 10 dmg to each attack and still have a +8 chance to hit.
#10 SpedGuy Sep 01, 2014 18:21:26	Half-Orc adds some critical-hit damage, but only for melee attacks; which inclines me towards the melee path as well.
#11 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 18:22:47	Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:
#12 Jay_Ibero_911 Sep 01, 2014 19:00:50	Chakravant wrote:
#13 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 19:12:53	It seems like in the end the difference amounts to situational modifiers more than anything.
#14 2Chlorobutanal Sep 01, 2014 19:43:59	Without some of the unique functions of 4E critical hits, with things such as bonus dice only on critical hits from magical weapons, I'm not sure I see the point to "fish" for critical hits, especially without a Brutal Critical feature.  Specifically, the power attack / power shot feat benefits (-5 to hit for +10 damage) are completely irrelevant to "crit fishing," as they are not multiplied on critical hits nor do they help one score additional critical hits.  It might dovetail with the concept, but the two are are not strictly synergistic.  The "cleave" feature of Great Weapon Master provides some impetus to create a character with a high critical chance, but in general, critical hits provide a very small (5-15% bonus) to your dice-based damage.   Comparing Superior Critical (Champion Fighter 15) to Brutal Critical (3) (Barbarian 17): Superior Critical with a greatsword (and great weapon fighting style) adds about 0.83 damage per attack (compared to only scoring criticals on a 20). Brutal Critical (3) with a greataxe adds about 0.975 damage per attack.   Without extra damage dice from another source, you're looking at about +1 damage from each feature.  Advantage can increase the numbers, but only up to +2 damage each (at best).   Additionally, 5E revives some of the auto-critical methods of 3rd edition, such as paralysis or unconsciousness.  This makes "fishing" for criticals somewhat less important, and bonus damage on criticals (from extra dice or Brutal Critical) more important, as you can work with a spellcaster to force criticals in some situations.  Sleep, eyebite, or any hold spell can enable a Barbarian or Rogue to deal massive criticals without having to roll a 20.  Assassin Rogues also have additional ways to score critical hits without rolling.
#15 Chakravant Sep 01, 2014 20:41:05	I'll freely admit a crit fishing build in 5e is very much a white room creation.  Even at its best, a few minimal reductions in pure crit fishing are more than made up for in superior DPR.  I still find it useful to know those templates, so I can vary from the ideal with intent.
#16 Daganev Sep 01, 2014 22:14:54	I'm a bit confused on what you want. Do you want highest chance to land a critical, or most damage when a critical lands along with a higher chance to crit? I'm asking cause you said nothing about the barbarian or half orc in your original post.
#17 Noctaem Sep 02, 2014 8:29:01	If you're making a crit fishing build you should look at the Lucky feat.  It's able to cancel disadvantage on an attack for yourself, cancel advantage against you from an incoming attack and adds d20's (not rerolls).  Very powerful in the right build.  I have nothing else to add after the splendid post by Jay.
#18 Yunru Sep 02, 2014 9:01:39	Not to mention it stacks with advantage, so if you've advantage and Lucky a roll, you roll 3d20 and pick the highest.
#19 Noctaem Sep 02, 2014 9:22:23	it's actually pick whichever you want to use as per the feat which beats the general advantage rule.  But yeah, it's the equivalent of the Dice of Auspicious Fortune item from 4e basically.
#20 Sorxores Sep 02, 2014 9:25:26	The problem with SA it only once per turn, if you can choose to apply your sneak after you know you rolled a crit, it's not a big deal, but if you crit twice in the same turn, then one of your crit won't benefit from SA. furthermore at level 5 SA is only 3d6 (10.5) damage (crit into 6d6(21)) but yes with a hafling hide behind a team mate and shoot with advantage is a easy way to improve your crit chance. but to hide behind your team mate, that use your bonus action, so if your dual wield hand crossbow, you cannot use your bonus action for the second hand crossbow. If you go the rogue way for cunning action to hide and gain advantage, do not waste a feat to gain a off hand attack since your bonus action is already used to gain advantage and advantage will give you more crit then a 4th attack. same goes with GWM feat giving you the chance to use a bonus action to make a additional attack on a crit, won't happen if your already used your bonus action to gain advantage   I believe that the barbarian reckless attack with strenght weapon is the best way to go, since you can get advantage without using your bonus action, giving you the chance to swing 4 time with advantage if you crit or kill a creature (5 time with advantage with your reaction) and a melee barbarian will receive more AoO then a range character. Barbarian lvl 5 will also give you resistance to ALL damage type except psychic if you take the bear totem (since Frenzy also require a bonus action to swing a 4th time, so is redundant with GWM feat) the fighter barbarian path also favored teh half orc which will give you one extra dice on your crits   If you do go fighter/barbarian I would suggest fighter16/barbarian4 since barbarian 5 only give ou an extra attack that doesn't stack witht he fighter extra attack so wasted, and fastmovement but the fighter give you an extra feat, if you really want the extr a10 ft you can take mobile which give you 10ft movement and other bonuses
#21 Chakravant Sep 07, 2014 12:30:55	Daganev wrote: