My game group and I are starting at 3rd level and I was hoping to solicit some advice / opinions on my build and character concept. My background / history write up could use some work and there are a few elements I'm having difficulty with.
Valis the Lost
In 1372 DR, the Church of Kelemvor's Eternal Order sent a small assembly of their greatest and most accomplished knights on a secret mission against the forces of the Whispering Tyrant (Tar Baphon). Under the guise of loyal lieutenants, subservient to the dark lich, the knights were able to infiltrate the Whispering Tyrant's keep, but found only defeat and death. What has been lost to myth and legend, however, is the tragic story of Lord Valis. A valiant swordsman and well respected knight, Valis was thought to have been a casualty of the final battle. His fate was decisively more grim....
Taken prisoner by the cultists of the Whispering Way, Lord Valis was subjected to a dark and powerful curse, his face fiendlishly defiled, yet even the powerful Tar Baphon could not corrupt his soul. Seeing that his plans for the young paladin would not see fulfillment, the Tyrant cast him to stone as an example to all who would defy his wrath. Lost to time, Valis remained frozen for the next 113 years.
Modern Day ( 1485 DR ) Upon construction of the Drunken Goblin Alehouse and the new establishment's wine cellar, workers uncovered what appeared to be a maze of catacombs beneath the pub's foundation. While the dark tunnels were devoid of any clues as to it's original purpose, a stone statue of a knight was unearthed and brought to the surface to serve as a showpiece for the newest and largest drinking establishment north of the Dalelands. Nicknamed the "Lost King" the statue remained a conversation piece until a travelling cleric, stopping by for an afternoon ale, noticed the curious statue and quietly cast a divination to discern it's true nature. Returning to the pub that night, under the cloak of darkness, the mysterious cleric (the intent and motivations of whom remain unknown) used his divine influence to resurrect Valis. Unable to fully eradicate the Tyrant's curse, he cast a spell to cover Valis' face in shadow, permanently hiding it's unholy countenance and placed a strange amulet around his neck before vanishing.
Many years have passed, but through faith in the divine, Valis now continues his quest against the forces of darkness while searching for the mysterious Cleric that brought him back to the living.
Above background edited and improved.
Valis T'Saran
Class/Level - Paladin 3 (Oath of Devotion)
Race - Human (Variant)
Background - Spy (a fellow player has a thief who is my criminal contact as per Criminal background)
Alignment - LN (Kelemvor)
Abilities - STR 12, DEX 16, CON 9/19, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 16 (based on a 27 point buy)
Skills - Athletics +3, Deception +5, Intimidation +5, Perception +2, Stealth +5
Feats - Sentinel
Languages - Common, Sylvan, Abyssal
AC - 18, Initative 0, Speed 30ft
Hit Points - 34
Fighting Style - Duelist - +2 to damage with one handed melee weapons.
Weapons - Scimitar +5 to hit and 1d6 +5 damage
- Flail +3 to hit 1d8 +3 damage
Armor - Breastplate and Shield
Magic Items - Amulet of Health CON 19 (a Table G pick as we are all starting at 3rd)
Equipment - Explorer's Pack, Thieves' Tools, Holy Symbol, mundane adventuring items and essentials I won't bother to list, riding horse
Personality Traits - What other's infer as an almost palpable coldness, is more of a cautious attitude and suspicious nature. Usually calm and patient, but extremely focused and decisive in times of danger. Protective of the innocent, disciplined, principled, and merciless towards fiends and undead as per the tenants of the Church of Kelemvor.
Ideals - Virtue and Vigilance. Uphold all that is good in the world and always be on guard to stand against evil.
Bonds - The Wilderness, all of the God's creatures, and the natural order of life.
Flaws - Living Anachronism - from a much earlier time in history and unfamiliar with the modern world.
Highly claustrophobic.
When using the Sacred Weapon ability, my weapon does not emit a bright light, but rather a sickly green, most likely an after-effect of the curse Valis endured. (for character concept / flavor. No in-game mechanical benefit)
Added: Character reworked and improved with mechanics from Kalani's Dex-adin build. Much thanks. 
Why is your attack mod for longsword/flail +7?
I get +2 (proficiency) +3 (Str mod) = +5
Anything else? Or did you miss-type?
The Duelist fighting style gives you +2 to damage, not to attack.
Character Appearance - you old schoolers will recognize the 1st edtion Anti-Paladin picture from Dragon Magazine. This is was a base for my character concept and background history.
ArialBlack wrote:
Struggling with a few things:
1) The shadowed face idea might hinder social interactions and roleplay. I'm thinking it would probably have some positive effect on intimidation or a negative effect on persuasion. I may need to scrap that idea altogether.
2) I'm wondering what type of damage is dealt with the Sacred Weapon ability. It just says positive energy. Is it implied that this is radiant damage or is it irrelevant since it gives a bonus to attack rather than to damage? If it doesn't have an actual "damage type" due to being an attack bonus, then a player should be able to flavor it however they want right?
3) I also specifically chose the LN Kelemvor as my God and alignment even though it goes a bit against type for Oath of Devotion paladins, as I like the concept of the Church of Kelemvor's Eternal Order and their mandate to eradicate the world of fiends and undead, but prefer the more classic Oath of Devotion abilities. Since LN and LG are only one alignment step apart, I'm assuming this shouldn't cause any issues provided I stay within the Oath of Devotion tenants. Thoughts?
If you're going to use a 1-handed weapon + shield you should really consider going DEX as your primary instead of STR. This is because dex improves:
AC
Initiative
All the dex skills
dex saves (common save to make)
while str improve:
str skills
str saves (rare save to make)
There's just a lot more to gain by going dex instead of str if you're not going 2 handed. Go with medium armor and you can get higher AC than via STR as well. You just need to use a weapon with the finesse trait, like the rapier or scimitar.
Noctaem is correct and is probably referencing my DEX-adin vengeance paladin build - who just happens to be a champion of Tiamat.
AC - Medium Armor
- Half-Plate + Shield: 19 (assuming Dex 14)
- Half-Plate, Shield, medium armor mastery: 20 (assuming Dex 16)
AC - Heavy
- Full Plate: 18; Optimal AC for heavy weapons.
- Full Plate + Shield: 20.
Damage - DEXadin
- Rapier: 1d8 (av 4.5; max 8)
- Rapier + Dueling FS: 1d8+2 (av. 6.5; max 10)
Damage - STRadin
- Greatsword: 2d6 (av. 6.5; max 12)
- Longsword: 1d8 (av. 4.5; max 8)
- Longsword + Dueling FS: 1d8+2 (av. 6.5; max 10)
STRadin
- Options for versatile/heavy weapons.
- Superior Damage with 2HWs and great weapon master, but at reduced AC (18-19)
- Feats for heavy weapons (polearm master, great weapon master)
- Superior Athletics (grapple, shove).
- Shield Mastery (Athletics): Taken for bonus action shove. Evasion reaction is less useful without DEX.
- Dueling, Defense, GW FS
- Disadvantage on Stealth Checks
- Inferior DEX skills and saves (offset partially by shield mastery, if taken).
DEXadin
- Medium Armor Mastery: AC equal to Full Plate + Shield but without penalty on Stealth checks.
- Dueling, Defense FS
- Superior Initiative
- Superior DEX saves.
-
Superior DEX skills (inc. Stealth, Acrobatics)
- Inferior Athletics (unlikely to grapple/shove)
- Shield Mastery (Evasion): With superior DEX, Evasion reaction is more useful for DEXadins. However, DEXadins are unlikely to use the BA shove unless they have 14 STR - as most DEXadins choose Acrobatics over Athletics.
-
DEX Saves > STR Saves
-
Athletics > Acrobatics
Both builds have their perks - but DEXadins make superior S&B paladins than STRadins (STRadins make superior DPS strikers when using heavy weapons however).
Thank you very much Noctaem and Kalani. Those are some fantastic builds and a great incentive to go DEX over STR, since I'm very decided on sword and board. I'm going to give it some serious consideration, especially for the improved initiative, AC, dex saves, and stealth. I took the Spy background so a DEX build would complement my character concept incredibly well. My only hesitation would be having to use a finesse weapon like a scimitar, over the more traditional longsword. Is this what is referred to on these boards as "reflavoring" ? eg: use a scimitar for the mechanical benefits, but have it look however you like to fit your character concept?
I'm all for better optimization (hence my thread request) but as far as playing this character with a new / unfamiliar group or in organized play, wouldn't a light or finesse weaponed paladin using a rapier or scimitar be frowned upon as min/maxing or bordering munchkinism since it strays considerably from the well established paladin concept of "longsword and board" ? or is it perfectly acceptable as it meets all of the rules requirements? I may be overly sensitive to this concern, considering DEX can now apply to hit AND damage, making it just as viable as STR in combat, as opposed to past editions. Thoughts / opinions?
I'm "reflavoring" my Sacred Weapon ability to have my sword emit an unholy, sickly green light (think Spawn) over emiting a holy bright light, so having a scimitar instead of a longsword isn't a big stretch really. Huge appreciation for you doing the math on this to show just how effective a DEX build paladin is for this edition.
Use a Rapier and you get the same damage die, the only difference is that you're doing piercing instead of the longsword slashing damage.
And yes feel free to reflavor however you want! That's one of the fun parts of making a character. You have complete freedom in this respect as long as you don't try to make mechanical changes.
The edition is designed to allow either DEX or STR to be used with weapons. You're restricting yourself to finesse weapons to play a concept (the paladin spy) and going Dex so that your spy abilities aren't totally bad. Going STR will sap that entire side of your character from a mechanical point of view. If I were you I would worry less about what other people around you think is min/maxing and play something that you're going to enjoy!
I agree with everything Noctaem and Kalani said. Just wanted to point out that Medium Armor Mastery allows for stealth + AC20, and a dexadin opens up the option to take a one-level Rogue dip to grab Athletics expertise, which makes the BA from Shield Master as effective for the dexadin as for the stradin, along with a d6 from sneak attack, a new skill... some good stuff there.
The stradin, on the other hand, gets there faster and isn't limited for equipment and doesn't need to get Medium Armor Mastery or level dips. For instance, I had a Stradin that got magic plate armor at level 4... dexadin needs to wait several more levels to match that AC + Shield Master. If a Stradin finds a magic rapier, he can use it... and he could use a magic anything else as well. if a dexadin finds a magic longsword, he's out of luck until he can find a magic finesse weapon.
so... basically what I'm saying is that they are mostly balanced, just different. For your background and image, I would be tempted to do stradin for a more classic paladin feel.
Angel7 wrote:
Noctaem and SterlingRat - equally compelling arguments for both the Dexadin and Straladin. The fact that it's a hard decision only shows this edition's appreciation for game balance. I'm going to decide soon and update my character post if I decide to go DEX.
SterlingRat wrote:
I reworked my character using Kalani's awesome Dex-adin build and was surprised at how much the pros outweighed the cons. Thanks Noctaem for strongly suggesting this build and to Kalani for sharing it. My paladin's AC increased from 16 to 18, initiative went from a +1 to a +3, Stealth improved to +5, and my Dex saves are much better. This is a far better fit for my Spy background both mechanically and thematically and I've lost very little in the trade-off. Thanks for the help in better optimizing my build guys.
For those wondering why I would choose a 1d6 scimitar over a 1d8 rapier, I decided to give up a little bit of damage in the interests of flavor and concept. Some of the less dramatically curved scimitars I've seen on the net more closely resemble a longsword than I originally thought AND I get to keep my slashing damage.
SterlingRat wrote:
I think the CON amulet is pretty much bullshit, and I'll tell you why.
Realistically, no Paladin ever would dump their CON.
Never. Not like that, at least.
However, here, you have a CON which makes playing your Paladin difficult moving forward but you convienantly have the one magical item that allows for it.
It's a real point-f**ky way around it, just glarringly obvious to me that you're using CON as a dump stat and giving yourself a powerful magic item that just happens to be the single option that undoes what is otherwise a low enough stat that it would probably cripple this character.
Lame.
Otherwise it's pretty cool.
Patron1972 wrote:
I take the point that a player would be unlikely to have his paladin character have a 9 Con (unless he somehow knew that even though the character adventured from 1st he'd be lucky enough to get the amulet fairly soon), but in story terms:-
• this could represent a sickly child who overcame this challenge and/or a family that, for whatever reason, wanted him to be a warrior or paladin
• the character could've had the amulet from before he became an adventurer, and he either had it because his family thought he needed it to overcome his childhood sickliness, or his constant wearing of it as a child is actually the cause of his 9 Con, because there was no physical or psychological need to work to be naturally fitter when the magic did it for you
Patron1972 - Thank you for your honest critique (if somewhat brutal lol). You are absolutely right too. Considering our group is starting at 3rd level, the DM has granted each player an item of their choice on Table G, which is supported in the DMs guide based on the fact that our PCs could have attained these items from treasure hoards and the adventures leading up to becoming 3rd level. I make no apologies for choosing an Amulet of Health, as it's a great choice for a variant human with the two stat increases going to STR or DEX and CHA.
When I finally decided to go with a Dexadin, and redid my stats, I saw it as an opportunity to not have any negative modifiers. The way I went about it felt a bit cheesy
(admittedly) but I figured I could work it into my background in a realistic way. Im going to give it some thought and quite possibly go back to a -8 INT and a higher iniitial CON if it feels to "min maxy, powergamey, munchkiny". I'll admit the obvious. It was most certainly a retro-active fix and I would not have had the amulet knowledge had we started character creation at 1st level. At the moment, however, I see an opportunity to explain it in a realistic, in game way that's both believable and plausible, and on the flipside it doesn't go against RAW to pick a 9 CON.
In all fairness, isn't the Dexadin itself a way of optimizing your character within the ruleset, even though it goes against logical tradition? Were paladins not all about STR and CON? They weren't dancers or acrobats, yet the new ruleset allows for such and I'm actually more pleased than I thought I'd be with how well it fits my stealthy spy concept.
Sword and Board Paladins also didn't run around with rapiers and scimitars, yet it's perfectly viable RAW
For most of my gaming years, I've always opted for character concept over maximum efficiency, as well as played many characters purposely against type for the challenge and enjoyment. For this character I wanted to try and optimize it to the best of my ability with help from my friends here on the board. Thanks again for your honest opinion and I'm pleased that you like most of what I've got so far. I'm looking forward to more opinions and am enjoying both the discussion and the interest people are showing towards my character concept. Very much appreciated all.
SterlingRat wrote:
ArialBlack wrote: