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| #1FrogReaverFeb 05, 2015 9:04:56 | My goal was to find a character that could get a good AOE like fireball by fifth level and not be terrible with at-will DPR at level 1-5 or at the later levels.
Some considerations:
1. Most cantrips at level 1 just do maybe 1d10 dmg with no +dmg from stat. This makes relying on a cantrip like firebolt really bad for early DPR. However, some cantrips like Eldritch Blast do good DPR later. So cantrips aren't terrible they are just not very good at levels 1-4 for DPR.
2. Feats like Polearm Master and Crossbow expertise can give bonus action attacks with mod bonus early to any class. The thing about this is that it makes a Lvl 1 Fighter with a quarter-staff and duelist style (and polearm master) should be capable of 17 Avg Damage a turn. When comparing to cantrips even eldritch blast with +stat dmg only does about 8.5 Avg Damage a turn. All the other cantrips do much less. This means we are basically doing half the damage of the highest potential lvl 1 DPR character. ***(A rogue with sneak attack and dual crossbows or a fighter with archery style may be slighly better at DPR at level 1, but I think 17 makes a nice baseline Avg Damage comparison for level 1)
3. Dex is a more useful stat for almost every pure caster class than str (AC + Initiative)
4. Crossbow expertise with a 16 dex character will do 13 Avg Damage. That is 76.5% of the 17 Avg Damage fighter.
5. So it looks like crossbow expertise with a good dex score solves the early game DPR "problem" of casters.
6. But which caster should I base this concept around? Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorceror? Well the first problem I noticed was that the crossbow expertise caster still falls behind at lvl 5. When melee classes are getting an extra attack to boost their DPR again.
7. So if we look at the quartestaff fighter I described earlier at level 5 he can do 1d8 + 2 + 4 + 1d8 + 2 + 4 + 1d4 + 2 + 4 = 11.5+ 18 = 29.5 Avg Damage (lvl 5). He may can climb a little higher with champion extra criticals and such. My measly 13 Avg Damage is again lacking. I only do 44% of his damage. He does over twice as much damage as me again. (But at least this only happens after the caster gets fireball or lvl 3 spells)
8. What if there was another damage option a caster could use at lvl 5? Well, Consider Eldritch blast now. 1d10 + 4 + 1d10 + 4 = 19 Avg Damage. The fighter does 55% more damage than me. I do 64% of his damage.
9. Eldritch blast will also grow in number of attacks. Also after level 5 I can build the character up as a bard or sorcerer if I prefer a traditional caster at that point.
10. Basically the only way to even try to keep up in damage from levels 1-5 for a caster is to use crossbow expertise (polearm master can be substituted) out the gate and then switch over to eldritch blast around level 5. ----------------------------------------- My proposed build is a Human Crossbow Expertise Warlock that starts with 16 dex and 16 cha (rest goes into con). I will pick fiend pact so at level 1 I can survive with my decent AC and temp hp (4+ on kill) while doing good DPR. This also gives me access to spells like burning hands for decent early game aoe.
The pact boon is open. I would either do chain or tome. The choice is really up to you. I prefer tome for more cantrips and access to the ritual invocation.
At level 4 I will choose cha as my stat boost. At level 5 I will switch to using eldritch blast and will have access to 2 casts of fireball (or other lvl 3 spells) per short rest.
Lvl 6+ (The rest can be built out as you would like.) Lots of options, bard levels, sorceror levels, paladin levels (cha is great for their auras) and still gives extra spell slots. Or you can continue on the warlock. |
| #2FrogReaverFeb 05, 2015 9:08:09 | Thoughts and opinions? |
| #3Captain_KoboldFeb 05, 2015 9:44:25 |
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| #4BloodscytheFeb 05, 2015 11:03:20 | I agree with Captain Kobold.
There's really no need to be so torn up by your "poor" DPR from lvls 1-4, especially considering your DPR isn't poor at all. So your cantrip won't do the same damage as a crossbow expert... (a pure caster won't do as much damage even with the CE feat since you won't have hand crossbow proficiency unless you're a drow)... you make up for the lower cantrip damage by pumping out some truly devastating spells lvl 1+. Also consider that cantrips can never break or be disarmed and require no consumables like ammunition. |
| (Reply to #4)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #5)Bloodscythe |
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| #7melloredFeb 05, 2015 14:11:42 | It's good at low levels, but becomes less useful as you get more spells and your can trips do more damage. |
| #8Captain_KoboldFeb 05, 2015 14:13:51 |
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| #9ZHDarkstarFeb 05, 2015 15:24:14 | You forgot to take Hex into consideration when it comes to Eldritch Blast's DPR potential. It also works with your crossbow, as the bonus applies to any attack that hits. |
| (Reply to #9)FrogReaver |
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| #11YunruFeb 05, 2015 18:18:51 | Eldritch Blast does equal to any ranged, featless, attacker come Warlock 2. 1d10+Mod is the same as a Heavy Crossbow. Plus Sleep is amazing at low levels. |
| (Reply to #7)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #11)FrogReaver |
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| #14melloredFeb 06, 2015 4:43:50 |
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| (Reply to #14)FrogReaver |
yea. Those feats are nice. However so is:
13 dmg at +3 vs 8.5 dmg at +5
The point is that it's a comparable option to those which most people seem to be dismissing simply because the extra handcrossbow attack isn't useful your whole career. (Even though being able to eldritch blast in melee range is very good as well.)
Btw I don't know where you are getting +2 cha from since if you wait till level 4 one of the biggest benefits of that feat is lost
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| #16melloredFeb 06, 2015 7:14:08 |
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| #17OculiHomunculiFeb 06, 2015 7:51:49 | Hi there guys,
I have a somewhat related concern that I could use a hand with. I'm looking to make a wizard that can still utilize the hand crossbow long term. It's really appealing up until around level 5 and then it seems most of the wizard primary features tend to outclass it.
So I guess in general:
What would I do to just optimize crossbow expert with hand crossbow as much as possible?
and
How could I make it a meaningful part of a wizard as I advance in level.
Any tips would be very appreciated!
At present we're doing a level 8 campaign and what I have so far is:
Wizard 6/Fighter 2.
Fighter for proficiencies, action surge, and archer fighting style. Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter.
Campaign is dark sun so the idea is to be able to not drop magic every second and especially in situations where that would draw unwanted attention. In said setting I'd like tosit back with the hand crossbow, but moving forward it seems like the only way to make it significantly improve is to get more extra attacks thru fighter. |
| (Reply to #16)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #17)FrogReaver |
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| #20FrogReaverFeb 06, 2015 8:29:51 | I don't think theres a long term solution to using hand crossbows with non bard casters. Hand crossbows typically offer a short term solution (extra damage till you get more spells and your cantrips increase in power). Thats the basic use that I have been advocating for them.
I think it's very important for low level casters to have decent damage options early primarily because they don't really get many spells early.... at lvl 3 they get 6 spells which will likely come out to about 1 spell per encounter. (4 of which are level 1 spells). There may be an encounter or two where you can cast more than 1 spell (since wizards can get some spell slots back once a day on a short rest). So it is important to have something the wizard can do on the other rounds of combat during these levels. Cantrips are an option but they are relatively weak. 5.225.
In fact hand crossbows without proficiency are kind of weak as well. But they are still stronger than cantrips at least until lvl 4 or 5. |
| #21melloredFeb 06, 2015 9:01:17 |
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| (Reply to #21)FrogReaver |
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