Friday, December 26, 2014
12:09 PM
D&d 5e fighter changes.
Hey everyone, sorry this is going to be a long one, but I would urge any fighter lovers to bear with me. so I have looked over the fighter and even tried a few combat scenarios in the 5th edition and I’ve come to some interesting realizations about the fighter mechanically. I will not argue that fighters are boring, for I enjoy playing thoroughly and think that it’s an aspect of roleplaying and DM cooperation with description that make fighters really fun to play. However, many of the mechanics I will give my opinion on have flavor reasons, which if anything, is the most important part of d&d. To begin, fighters are supposed to be the best at fighting with weapons and armor, and are supposed to be mundane (read non-magical). This I have nothing against, in fact it’s perfect for what fighters are supposed to do. However, it doesn't take much research to find that fighters, are actually no better, if not worse at melee combat compared to everyone else. While sheer number of attacks is a huge bonus, I don’t think it gets behind the idea that a fighter is better at anyone else at combat. While damage is always nice, it doesn’t show combat prowess. For example, a barbarian with a strength of 20 and proficiency of 6 has the exact same chance of disarming/tripping/shoving/grappling that a fighter with 20 strength and 6 prof has. And I can see the argument that barbs can use raw strength to overcome the lack of training, but shouldn’t a trained fighter still be better at combat maneuvers than others? A better example might be that of a bard vs a fighter. The bard can use his expertise ability to double his prof bonus when doing a skill (say for this example athletics). Now the bard as 12 prof plus 20 strength for a staggering +17 to the contest. (for decent math and equality purposes, but even if the bard only had 12 strength he would still total to +13 on his roll) The fighter is stuck with his +11 like everyone else. It seems strange to me that the bard, paladin, ranger, barbarian or even a rogue can outperform or be equal to the fighter at melee combat. How is it that the paladin, with his time split between martial combat and praying/being divine, has the same combat ability as someone who has only the focus of melee combat? Howis it that a bard or rogue, whose time is split between singing songs/ learning or sneaking around are just as good at disarming as the fighter who practices solely this? I have looked around many forums and this one in a way inspired me, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362892-Fighters-are-boring, especially fwiffo86's first post. Now should fighters instant win? I don’t think so, but I do think that fighters should be much better at these aspects of combat than others. I kind of imagine the fighter as batman is imagined compared to other dc heroes. Batman has no powers, no magic and is totally mundane (although vast reserve of wealth certainly help). But batman is considered one of the strongest because of his fierce devotion to improving himself physically and mentally. Batman's training in the mundane arts are so great that he can rival the super human prowess of other hero's. That’s what I think the fighter should be like, toe to toe, it should be pretty darn hard to take down a fighter. So I did some research and looked around. Being an avid fan of the tome of battle as well as the play test fighter I have come up with what I think adds flavor, better mechanics and a more fun play style for fighters, that (having done several damage calculations on,) I believe to be fair and balanced compared to others. Basically, the fighter gains a pool of battle dice that’s scales with fighter level. They can use these dice to make them better with weapons and armor and winning combat related contests. The fighter can use the dice to 1) increase their attack roll by the die, 2) increase damage roll by the die, ). improve their roll on a contest by the die, 4) as a reaction increase armor class by the die roll. These uses of the battle dice as well as tripping(athletics vs athletics or acrobatics vs acrobatics)/disarming (athletics vs athletics or acrobatics vs acrobatics) /grappling( athletics vs athletics)/overruns (athletics vs athletics)/shoving (athletics vs athletics)/ and tumbling (acrobatics vs acrobatics), (you can use an athletics vs acrobatics for any that are interchangeable I would rule). These are known as basic maneuvers, and every fighter of any level can do them. The battle dice are a mechanical representation of the fighter’s physical and mental training with weapons and armor. A fighter might focus himself, waiting for an opening to strike (adding dice to attack roll), or he may try to turn with an incoming blow, utilizing his full plate to deflect the blow (add die to AC). The dice are also a measure of the fighter's fatigue. If he expends himself every turn to be better he his left with less options as his exhaustion catch's up to him. Battle dice start at 2d4 (see table later) and regains one battle dice at the beginning of each turn that the fighter does not have his maximum battle dice. You may only use a battle die to augment one aspect of your attack (either attack, or damage, or to add the roll on a contest) until he reaches more advanced levels of fighter at which point his training allows him to focus on multiple aspects of his attacks, he may however, only augment one aspect once per attack (for example you cannot add both your d4’s to dmg, one must go to damage and the other to another aspect of the attack). Eventually, the fighter will have two martial archetypes to choose from, the champion (who specializes in focusing the mundane and gains advanced maneuvers, and the eldritch knight who uses magic in combination with martial prowess). In addition to the changes to the fighter, I think it also makes sense to change the martial adept feat accordingly, I would have it give two dice (2d4) and access to two advanced maneuvers (from the champion's list). If you already have battle dice it adds two more to your max capacity as well as adds the extra advanced maneuvers. This is mostly because one battle dice a short rest is pretty useless. Below I have the new table for the fighter, then according descriptions and after that I will have the archetypes. Thank you for reading this far if you have, I know this is long but I really wanted to share my thoughts. I should also mention that when I say contest, I usually am referring to it in a combat aspect. For example if you roll to trip someone, you each roll athletics checks to see if the opponent is tripped or not, I call these contests even thought I understand that contests in d&d terms imply that the action could happen to either party. I just say contest because im too lazy to think of a better word.
Level/prof/battle dice/ class features
1 -+2/2d4/ fighting style, second wind
2-+2/2d4/ action surge
3-+2/2d4/ martial archetype feature
4-+2/2d4 ability score improvement
5- +3/3d6/ extra attack
6-+3/3d6/ ability score improvement
7-+3/3d6/martial archetype feature
8-+3/3d6/ ability score improvement
9-+4/4d8/ improved battle dice augmentation (2)
10-+4/4d8/ martial archetype feature
11-+4/4d8/ extra attack (2)
12-+4/4d8/ ability score improvement
13-+5/5d10/ improved battle dice regeneration
14-+5/5d10/ Ability score improvement
15-+5/5d10/ martial archetype feature
16-+5/5d10/ Ability score improvement, extra attack (3)
17-+6/6d12/action surge (2)
18-+6/6d12/ martial archetype feature
19-+6/6d12/ ability score improvement
20-+6/6d12/ improved battle dice augmentation(3)
-fighting style=see players handbook
-second wind= see PHB
-actions surge= see PHB
-improved battle dice augmentation= a fighters superb training allows him to focus on multiple aspect of his attacks, making him superior to fighters below his level. He may choose to augment two aspects of his attacks (attack rolls, damage, bonus to contest, or reaction to gain AC). However he must spend a battle die per aspect he augments (read: to augment two aspects costs two die). Augment will be the term I will use to refer expending a die to increase some aspect of the attack. This goes up to the fighter being able to augment 3 aspects of his attacks at level 20 (again expending the appropriate die costs).
-improved battle dice regeneration = at this point in the fighter's career, he has reach peak physical condition, and can now gain back two die at the start of each turn where the fighter isn't at max capacity, instead of one die.
-extra attack(3)= this was changed from the PHB, mostly because I think it’s annoying to break the chain of getting extra attacks every 4-5 levels, and also because extra attacks doesn't emphasize the skill of the fighter as much as I feel that augmenting his attacks do.
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THE FIGHTER ARCHETYPES
-Champion
The champion focuses on pure martial prowess, allowing him the physical aptitude to perform advanced maneuvers as well as improve himself physically.
3-advanced maneuvers= you learn three advanced maneuvers of your choice. Advanced maneuvers may not be use in the same attack as a basic maneuver is, but they may be done during an attack in which you are not using a basic maneuver. Advanced maneuvers cost 1 dice to use, many of the adv.manuevers require you to use the expending die in order to augment the maneuver. You may augment any aspect of an adv.manuever with the exception of what its initially expending die augments. For example, the lunge maneuver lets you increase your reach by 5ft and adds the expended battle die to damage, you cannot additionally augment damage from another die, you can however, augment the attack roll associated with the lunge maneuver.
7- Improved athleticism= You have reached the pinnacle of the humanoid body’s physical aspects. You gain double your prof. bonus on either Athletics or acrobatics (your choice) skill checks (applying both to combat maneuvers and outside of combat uses.) In addition, you add your ability score modifier to any applicable physical skill checks (checks that require str, dex or con) if you are proficient in them, for example you jump an extra number of squares equal to str mod (or climb/ swim extra spaces equal to str modifier), or tumble extra spaces equal to dex or hold your breath an extra number of rounds equal to your con modifier. (lots of DM decisions here, I say be generous with them, but I tend to be a generous DM).
Additionally, you learn one more advanced maneuver
10- improved fighting style, I admit, I was hesitant to do this at first, but I really enjoyed the idea of the fighter as a weapon master, and thus decided on these. These are really up in the air for now, I put together a few I thought made sense flavor wise, and I included them in my damage calculations and find that they are not over powering. You may choose to take a second fighting style or improve the one you took at first level. Meaning that you can upgrade the fighting style you choose at 1st level to include the listed bonus below as well as the benefits of the first level fighting style. (if you choose great weapon for example you couldn’t take the improved archer style, you could only take the improved great weapon. However you could instead choose to take the archery fighting style of 1st level.)
Great weapon- you gain advantage on str/athletics related combat contests (tripping/grappling/overruns/disarms/shove) when using a heavy weapon.
Dueling- when threatened by only one opponent, and wielding a one handed weapon and no other weapons in your off hand, you gain +1 AC against that opponent.
Two weapon fighting- when you use your bonus action to make an attack with your off hand weapon, you may make two attacks instead. In addition, you may choose to hit with both your main hand weapon and off hand weapon (two attacks, one with each weapon) on an opportunity attack if you use a bonus action and a reaction.
Archery- as a bonus action you may notch two arrows onto your bow for one attack during your attack action. You can choose to fire at two different targets with one attack roll, or may choose to fire both arrows into one target (hit twice with one roll).
Protection- you may use your action to form a wall with your shield. When you have a shield equipped, you may sue your action to give yourself and any allies adjacent to you ¾ cover until your next turn. Nay allies that move more than 5ft from you lose this bonus.
Defense- you gain +1 in any saving throw of your choice
Additionally, you learn one advanced maneuver of your choice.
15- know your enemy= as the PHB ability. This ability and the 7th level one could switch places based on when you think they should get them, personally I prefer having it in the order I presented it in, but I can see arguments both ways.
18- perfect form= once per short rest, you may use a strike of perfect form. During an attack that you have augmented with a basic maneuver, you may choose to expend one additional battle dice to maximize the augmenting dice. For example, you choose to augment damage by 1d12, you can expend one addition dice, to have the 1d12 automatically give you a 12. Basically you spend two dice to make sure that you roll max on the singular dice.
ADVANCED MANUEVER LIST (* means that it cannot be done with a ranged attack)
-commanders’ strike=see PHB
-maneuvering strike= see PHB
-Sunder= when you attack you can choose to expend one battle dice, you point out gaps in your enemy’s armor or a flaw in their dodge, if the attack hits you can roll the expended dice to lower the targets armor class by the amount rolled on the battle dice for one round.
-*sweeping strike= by expending one battle dice, you can add an additional number of targets within 5ft to an attack you make. Make one attack roll for all the opponents. (you could also rule that you could hit all in your reach, giving reach weapons a large advantage with this maneuver, this is DM dependent)
-*Feinting attack= see PHB
-*lunge= see PHb
-Riposte= see PHB
-indomitable= as a reaction, you may expend a battle die and add the die’s roll to any saving throw
-ham string= when you attack, you may expend a battle die, if the attack hits, you reduce the targets speed by a number of squares equal to the die’s roll
-stagger strike= when you attack, you may expended a battle die, if you do, the target of the attack cannot make reactions for 1 round. (the die is wasted)
-menacing strike= see PHB
-goading strike= see PHB
-evasive footwork= see PHB
-deflect= when an emeny misses a melee attack agisnt you, you may use your reaction to expend a battle die. If you do you may send the attack towards another creature within the attacking creature’s reach. The attack deals normal damage and uses the same attack value as the intial attack.
-*glancing blow= when you miss an attack, you may use your reaction and expend a battle die to roll deal a glancing hit. Roll the battle die, and deal that much damage to the missed enemy
-*flanking maneuver= if flanking a creature with an ally, you can expend a battle die. For as long as the creature is flanked, you and your allies deal additional damage equal to the expened battle die’s roll.
-im always excited and happy to see other maneuvers that you come up with. As much as I love the tome of battle, I was afraid to include some converted maneuvers from there, but if you find a way to make it work I would love to hear.
ELDRITCH KNIGHT
3-all the PHB abilities (weapon bond and spell casting)
Additionally, augment concentration= as a reaction you can add a expend a battle die on order to add its roll to a concentration check when taking damage while concentrating on a spell.
7-war magic= see PHB
Augment casting= when casting a spell, you may expend a battle dice to ignore one component (verbal, material or somatic) of the spell. Effectively allowing you to cast with both hands occupied. You may ignore more components of a spell by spending additional die.
10- eldritch strike= see PHB
15-arcane charge
Attuned actions surge= when making your second action during an action surge, you may choose to cast a spell instead of attack, however, you can still only cast one spell a turn. This allows you one of three options when you use your actions urge, 1) Attack with first action, then cast a spell with the second. 2) cast a spell as the first action and then attack as the second. 3) attack as the first action and attack again as the second action. (this can get really cool with eldritch strike)
18- improved war magic = see PHB
THANK YOU SO MUCH for going through the trouble of reading my post(s). I know it was a lengthy read but I hope that I managed to bring some attention to the fighter’s plea of not being the best at melee combat. I welcome any constructive criticism or questions you have. I have also noticed that this may get out of hand with a bard buffing a fighter, therefore I don’t think it would be unreasonable to say that a bard’s inspiration die cannot augment the same aspect of an attack that the fighter augments, (if a fighter has inspiration die and uses it to add to his attack roll, his battle dice cannot additionally augment the attack roll, but it could augment damage and the like.)
Formatting, please. I can't read the first paragraph as it's just a wall of text.
Sunder, Flanking and Deflect OP.
Sunder makes it easier to hit, making it easier to Sunder, repeat until miss-on-1.
Flanking + Movement Denial (Stun, Sentinel, Prone+Grabbed)= +damage, can stack.
Deflect, well, sit in front of BBEG. BBEG goes to attack you, misses. Deflect his attack back on himself.
I mourn the loss of Improved Critical (and Improved Improved Critical :P), as ineffective as they were.
Also, Remarkable Athlete. Remarkable Athlete was why you went Champion.
sorry about the formatting, im pretty new to forum sutff. Good point about sundering and deflect, i hadnt even thought about that xD. I suppose you could always add the improved critical back, i just wasnt sure if that would make th fighter too strong or damaging. I will proabbly get rid of sunder or make it so it can only be done once per enemy and ill have to word deflect so thatt it cannot send the attack back to the orignaly attacker. I could maybe change the flanking to an attack bonus instead of damage, would that help? Sorry again about theformatting, if you dont mind me asking, how might I fix that problem in the future? Thank you so much for taking the time to look at my stuff, its really appreicated. 
sorry i forgot to mention the remarkable athletic stuff, i tried to keep the ability modifer to the jumping/climbing/other physical skill stuff. I wanted the fighter to get expertise so he would be even better than others at comabt contests, but I guess it makes sense that he would be good at other phsyical stuff too, so adding the half prof. to everything else probably wouldnt be a bad idea.
If I were going to fix Fighter, I'd make a Battlemaster that can use a maneuver once every round, but there are penalties for using the same maneuver too often. So Trip #1 in a combat works just as Battlemaster does, but Trip #2 grants Advantage on the saving throw and the die gets halved. 7th level Fighters might get a bonus maneuver on an Action Surge. 11th level Fighters might sacrifice an attack of Extra Attack for an extra maneuver use. 15th level Fighters might simply can't use the same maneuver two times in a row. So Disarm-Trip-Disarm is fine, but not Disarm-Disarm.
The upsides of this approach is that you have something unique to do every round and there's mechanical pressure to choose a different maneuver each round. The downside is that you can't do the nova where you blow out 4 dice in one attack action.
thats an intersting idea. I really like the idea of not being able to do the same mannuever twice in a row on an enemy, maybe putting a once per round per enemy limit is a good idea. although your idea of disarm-trip-disarm would probably be better.
mellored wrote:
if you can get a chance to play for real do so. Fighter is fine in all my exp of 5th so far. Neither too hot nor too cold.
mr.troutz wrote:
I think the fighter is fine as is, if a little boring. It deals a good amount of damage, can be played by a chimpanzee, has very few options, and is fairly hard to kill. These are all things that the grognards wanted from the 5e fighter, and changing that would cause them to get their knickers in a knot.
Instead of trying to give the fighter a complete overhaul, I would rather see a class completely separate from the fighter built with interesting maneuvers as part of the core design. Something like THIS.
Lawolf wrote:
mr.troutz wrote:
I didn't really want to make the fighter the ultimate damage machine, I just thought that they should be the best at trip/disarm/grapple etc... The kings and queens of mundane combat, but Looking over what people think I believe I went overboard. Maybe a battle master that can rengerate dice is a perfect fix and it Doesnt need to be more than that or maybe it doesn't need a change at all. Thank you everyone for your inputs, they have really opened my eyes. I'm glad to see so many fighter lovers out there (my group is usually all wizards and rogues). Keep on spreading the fighters good name
mr.troutz wrote: