I have a player who wants a fighter or rogue who specialises in using daggers. But am struggling to make suggestions of how he can do it mechically. I know it BXCMI you could specialise in daggers and increase your chance of getting a critical, but in 5th it seems it never makes a good focused weapon. Do we need to wait for Feats to come out that will work with this or are there already option I am missing?
A Rogue would probably do better with a dagger focus than a Fighter, because most of a Rogue's damage comes from Sneak Attack, which is independent of weapon. The difference between the biggest Sneak Attack weapon and a dagger is only 2 damage, so that shouldn't be an insurmountable disadvantage. The key advantage that a dagger possesses over a short sword or a bow is that it is thrown, and thus does double duty for both ranged and melee attacks.
There aren't any feats or features that spefically give bonuses to daggers, but a dagger being a light weapon (and by some interpretations, a ranged weapon), it qualifies for certain feats or abilities:
- Defensive Duelist (feat)
- Sharpshooter (feat: the cover part definitely; the bonus damage part possibly)
- Two-Weapon Fighting (basic rule)
- Duelist Style (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger class feature)
- Archery Style (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger class feature possibly)
Given the properties of a dagger, I think going for some combination of two-weapon fighting and thrown attacks would be the best way to utilize the properties of the weapon.
3 levels of Fighter give an expanded critical hit range, which, while not specific to daggers, works well with Sneak Attack.
Thanks. I think that's great. Might suggest assassin style so he can poison them.
Tell your friend to take a look at the Monk. Because of the way the Monk's martial artist class feature works, any daggers a monk swings around will deal more damage as their level rises until at last they're stabbing dudes with d10 daggers.
Plus, monks have the Way of Shadow specialization for the whole "Ninja" feel, if that's interesting to you.
That's a really good suggestion to make daggers "optimal:" the Monk!
You could even eschew the Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows special rules and just do standard Two-Weapon Fighting with daggers if you didn't want to alternate daggers with punches and kicks.
One level of Fighter would probably be recommended for the bonus off-hand strike damage in this case, though, as two-weapon fighting doesn't naturally get your ability modifier to damage, unlike Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows.
I'd definitely consider a Way of Shadow Monk or Assassin Rogue for a good dagger-based character. Potentially both 
How about making daggers great in specific circumstances? LIke if you have a guy grappled, plunging a dagger into a vital organ or neck is a lot easier than a rapier or shortsword becaus you're so close. Going along with this, a houserule that says: "When grappling with a creature, you have advantage on your attack roll. If you hit with an attack using a dagger, its considered a critical hit."
That seems grossly powerful. Why not try working within the scope of the existing rules and seeing how things go before making giant changes?
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
That's probably why they are a tool or backup weapon, as opposed to a main armament, in real life as well. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. You might bring an extra knife in case you lose your gun, or you need a tool to cut something.
Daggers are easily concealed, fairly lightweight, finesse weapons, thrown weapons, and relatively cheap for edged weapons. There are situations (poisonings, Sneak Attacks) where the weapon used is not critical and a dagger may be the best weapon simply because of the extra utility it provides.
Throwing (light) hammers are pretty suboptimal as well, but I don't think they deserve their own special rules in which they become the best weapon available.
The Monk suggestion goes a long way to making daggers completely viable. One might say that they are one of the best Monk weapons because they are thrown. A Monk dagger-wielder can end up with the equivalent of a short-ranged heavy crossbow (1d10) that can be fired in melee in addition to performing tricks such as enabling extra unarmed attacks or deflecting missiles.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
That would only be a suggestion for somebody who really loved daggers and didn't want to do Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows with their bonus action. If you're going to two-weapon fight to get an extra dagger attack, the +3-5 damage from Two Weapon Fighting style would be worth more than getting the damage die upgrade on Martial Arts one level sooner.
I personally wouldn't take the fighter level and would just make the unarmed attacks, but some people have strong roleplay mandates like "must always be attacking with daggers!"
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Nobody is forced to play a Monk if they don't like Monks, but if you insist on using a weapon that is not optimal, you might have to make sacrifices in order to increase its usefulness.
Sneak Attack is an equally valid argument to use daggers.
The dagger is not intended to be mechanically optimal, nor should it need to be.
Look at the armor tables. Should Padded Armor have some inherent benefit over Studded Leather? Not everyone is optimally armored at all times and the game would be well-served to have rules for adjudicating "non-mechanically optimal" armor. Likewise, rules for weapons that are not "the best" exist to model "imperfect" situations.
The argument that the thrown property on the dagger is useless is pretty empty. You can't easily "move" across a 15' chasm to stab a guy with your shortsword, nor can you "move" into the air to hit a flying creature. You also can't "move" 50' to hit with a shortsword in a situation where you could move 30' and throw the dagger 20'.
grendel111111 wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Grappling somebody for free advantage and critical hits is not a "rare circumstance." If that rule were in my campaign, I'd grapple everything I possibly could. I'd pay spellcasters to summon giant snakes and drop fields of Evard's Black Tentacles on everything in sight.
I suppose nobody should be allowed to play Dwarven Rogues or Half-Orc Wizards, or that we should write a special rule where a Half-Orc Wizard casting magic missile gets an extra missile and does maximum damage - to make Half-Orc Wizards better.
Timborama wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Daggers are very handy, mostly because they are useful as tools as well as a very close quarters weapon. It's also worth repeating that D&D 5th is of course digging deep into being a story themed RPG style which means why you are not seeing any special extra rules just to cover when daggers are good those circumstances should totally be cropping up in play when those cunning players spot them. Happened in my game last night...
Charles, formerly of the Neverwinter guard now adventurer in the North, was captured by orcs during an attack on the small village the party is using as a home base. The party work out he's been nabbed but are also healing from wounds and utterly exhausted their magic defending the village forcing them to wait overnight before chasing off after the retreating Orc Warband. So, he wakes up stripped and bound to a tanning rack and gets interrogated by Orcish shaman who wants to know why their Zhentarim allies wanted him (and his companions) captured instead of killed. Time goes by and the classic moment of him slipped his arms and one leg free when lone Orc runt comes in to feed the Shaman's new toy, we had an ensuing bluffing, grappling, head locking, rough desperate scrabbling for dagger and ultimately garrotting scene with it. The dagger would have made Charles' take down of the Orc a lot easier, but I got kicked away in the scuffle. Neither went for the axe the Orc was carrying because it'd have been useless in the situation. Things like that is where some things are better than others with unarmed, dagger and garrot beating hands down the big bad great axe.
Moirdryd2 wrote:
Moirdryd2 wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Diffan wrote:
Here's an idea. Notice there are no weapon descriptions...just weapon names and stats. Just use the shortsword and say it looks like a dagger, then carry some actual daggers for throwing.
Barbarian / Rogue with the Grappler feat. Strength based sneak attack dagger stabs against someone who's gonna have a very hard time getting away, and damage ristance against their attacks? Why not? Expertise and advantage on your grapple checks? Yes, please.
Refluff daggers as throwing knives and short swords as daggers.
Sorxores wrote:
Jamwes wrote:
Jamwes wrote:
Diffan wrote:
Nachturnus wrote:
Well, Rogues get 10d6 sneak attack at level 20, but that's not really the problem here. The problem is that this feature clearly blows the rogue out of the water.
Lets assume your player isn't an idiot, and with the knowledge that this rule is going forth, he's going to make a Half-orc fighter, using duelist, wielding a dagger, and takes savage attacker ASAP. Then it's 1 attack to grapple and 3 more (or 7, if he Action Surges) and each attack is doing 4d4+7.
Math wrote:
Nachturnus wrote:
Diffan wrote:
It's also already possible with Tavern Brawler. Admittedly it then takes up your entire turn (bonus + actual action), but it's possible... As long as you have multiattack.
Shove prone -> attack wiht advantage -> On hit: Grapple as a bonus action. Congrats, they can't get up and you've Advantage.
Nachturnus wrote:
Personally I don't see that two creatures locked in grappling each other would find it that much easier to hit each other with normal weapons. I don't see that any cut or poke delivered by a dagger in a grapple would automatically be a vital blow either.
I'd probably simply say that daggers give the attacker advantage when used to deliver blows while grappling.
Nachturnus wrote: