Now then, a lot/few people have been throwing around bold, blanket statements about how Darkness is unfriendly. I'm here to correct that.
To start with, here's the spell in question:
Darkness:2nd level Evocation
Action: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, M (bat fur and a drop of pitch or piece of coal)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners. A creature with darkvision can't see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it.
If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it. Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
That's a big empty white room you're in there.
15' radius is enough to cause headaches for anyone (friend and foe both) if indoors/underground as well as many other situations such as in most city streets.
Oh and describing to your allies where the enemy is doesn't help with the many spells which require you to be able to see the target.
1eejit wrote:
In an edition that stresses 'rulings not rules' this is a tough sell. A pebble that is covered/uncovered, 10-15 feet away from you at all times that you can move as a free action (I guess), that is only useful to a warlock that takes devil's sight, or high level casters, in order to sometimes get advantage, just seems like a lot of work. Just get a familiar, since you're a warlock anyway. Also, if you're using it in melee to negate advantage and disadvantage, you've removed your allies' ability to get advantage.
So I repeat, just have your invisible imp use the help action, and BAM! instant advantage for you, without getting the stinkeye from the other players or the DM.
Yunru wrote:
And again, all your points point out is your lack of imagination. Tie a stone to a 10 foot string tied to you, voila. Or have a familar carry it, or just keep it in your pocket except for your turn. Or...
Yunru wrote:
1eejit wrote:
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Coredump00 summed it up nicely - your own descriptions are the epitome of 'unfriendly'
Well, I played with this combo. It created a lot of tactical difficulties. Hallways and rooms in the dungeon proved espeically difficult to position without obscuring too much space or blocking off too much area, as did working it around initiative order (I guess I could OOC tell everyone who goes before me where they can and can't move to make sure they aren't affected...). Moving to get line of sight put backline casters closer to enemies than they wanted. Creatures who moved in to attack me (since they could hear me and still target me) didn't have to worry about my allies helping me out since my allies couldn't see it. And your 'here's a bunch of actions to fix that' - the most prominent being the put in pocket, take out of pocket - most definitely didn't fly with my DM.
But the biggest drawback I found was that it essentially turned combat into the Warlock Shooting Show and Friends. I'm sure there a lot of "It's all about me and my DPR" players out there, but I don't play with any and I don't want to be one, either. Bottom line: We don't play DnD to "win", but to have fun, and watching someone demand every combat be worked around one character's 'trick' isn't, to me, fun.
The initial and follow up posts are a list of reasons why it is considered 'unfriendly'
Must stay 5' in front of warlock, can't see to other side of warlock, need to cast onto a rock and string, may need to 'shutter' it each turn, can't ever get advantage, warlock needs to continually update where the bad guys are, rock will not 'follow' a sideways move, counts on bad guys only coming from one direction, more problematic on city streets or dungeon hallways or almost any room in a dungeon.....
There may be ways to mitigate the hassle of continually dealing with a Darkness spell.... but even while trying to make it sound friendly, exposes all of the 'unfriendly' aspects of it..
NOTE: There are people that play the game as PCs 'just know' where everyone is. So if you play that even in a large field, in complete darkness, with combat all around.... you will 'just know' exactly where everyone is.... up to 600' away.... and can tell which are the good guys and which are the bad guys.... automatically..... then Darkness may not be as much of a problem for your group. If you like to play the game that way, then have at it.
I think you are confusing "tactical positioning" and being friendly. Darkness is an inherently unfriendly spell - however that does not mean that it cannot also be used tactically. If it didn't have its uses - the spell would not exist.
Also - the best way to solve your "rock" dilemma is to use mage hand. No need for a string which requires tension.
I still chalange everyone to go play Marco polo or even Tag blindfolded and tell me that they know EXACTLY where everyone was at all times.
To add to this play this in your living room or house. ( even a department store though you might get kicked out. )
Hand everyone a pot or pan and something to bang it against . or even have them shout or give them a blow horn.
Now While you are blind folded try touch everyone. Or even get a soft ball and try to play dodge ball blind folded.
Kalani wrote:
Ninja_Ferret wrote:
Yunru wrote:
At my table, if the quarterback is telling his team where to go. That would be his action, and possibly a concentration check. I might make everyone, including the monsters, that can't see, make a wisdom (perception) check to avoid total disorientation.
I am pretty sure darkness does not reveal to a blinded person where their foe is, but their senses should tell them where a potential target might be. So to make things fun, tell your unguided players that there is a target to your left, one about over there, and one behind something over here. Of course, one of those targets might be your healer, but that is okay, the warlock never liked her anyway.
I look at the situation with the intent to make the encounter fun, interesting, and deadly enough for both sides.
I'm reminded of how I used the Pyrotechnics spell in 3.5. Have someone chuck a flask of alchemist's fire or torch or whatever's on fire into a room or group of unaware baddies, choose whether you want a flashbang or gas grenade, cast the spell. It quickly became one of my favourite spells.
I'm sure Darkness could be used as creatively to camouflage your party or blind your opponents. Have a Mage Hand or Unseen Servant carry a stone on which the spell was cast into enemy lines, tactically valuable areas or chokepoints. Area denial is an interesting (if sometimes under-utilized) aspect of combat. Force a ranged enemy to stay in the darkness and remain blinded, or get out of it but no longer benefit of the cover it had in its previous location.
It's true that Darkness kind of is an unfriendly spell; might as well try to use it against your enemies.
My players tend to use Darkness to disable a group of enemies, and then chuck area effects on them. It is however a spell that tends to prevent your fellow players from seeing and attacking those very same enemies. So it needs to be used very strategically. I don't consider it quite as 'friendly' as the OP describes.
Yunru wrote:
Should work just fine. I assume that you are using a gridded map for your games. When you cast darkness everyone must leave the romm. The DM marks down the location of the models on a piece of paper. Each turn the players in darkness leave the room and the models are placed back for the warlock to see. He has 6 seconds to describe the location of everything in the room to the other players without reference to squares. They then make their attacks by saying which square they are aiming at and if there is something there they can roll to hit. Also movement would be cut down as walking in the dark you need to be far more careful.
Apart from what has been stated:
Darkness is pretty useful in any situation where you are outnumbered or outmatched (I know, I am running an underdark campaign). You can cast it and then use it to buy you some time, retreat, or regroup.
It's also very effective for blocking LOS of spell casters or ranged creatures (players or otherwise) in the back ranks.
The main problem with darkness however is there are a ton of *really* good 2nd level spells. I probably would never waste a prepared spell slot on it. It's also pretty easy to get rid of with a 2nd level spell that creates light (although that does waste someones action).
Having played a few darkness classes at low level I have to disagree with you Yunru. I've had monsters acquire and move my object. I've had tight chambers where I couldn't pull it out at all. Mostly though, even when it possibly works, it's rather annoying to my party that they have to deal with it. It makes every encounter it's used in more geometric and complicated. Defensively, I've had people hide in the darkness bubble off turn, pop out and fire, and retreat in alot. The mobility monk does this alot, sometimes dragging a monster back in there with him.
A more demanding solution that doesnt work for AV is to just have everyone dip warlock. I have a 4 person party made around this concept and it's been fantastic.
Monk/Warlock allows Hex plus flurry.
Fighter/Warlock gives him Armor of Agathys which helps frontline tanking.
Sorc/Warlock allows dumping sorc spell slots into metamagic points.
Bard/Warlock gives a lore bard a full DPR option.
Everyone gets sleep on a short rest which dominates the low levels. Everyone can get Eldritch blast for a ranged attack option. It's a bit MAD though, especially on the monk.
DaveDash wrote:
What a lovely non-sequitur.
Devil's Sight/Darkness would be particularly nifty for a solo Ninja Monk/Warlock (though inconveniently very MAD), it's just very situational with a party.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
"Smaller than 20 foot on any side" means that all sides are less than 20 foot. Hence any: any side you pick, it's less than 20 foot.
The wording's also unambiguous due to the nature of the spell.
Yunru wrote:
I still don't get the point. Are you looking for advantage on attacks? Disadvantage from attackers?
Because advantage on attacks is easier to get. And those same allies you're doing gymnastics to avoid blinding already give you cover. And darkness is a concentration skill.
I guess if you have a patient and understanding group, you get points for being the dark and gritty guy/gal always shrouded by darkness, but if you're just looking for the best way to do damage with a warlock, this isn't it.
Fitzco wrote:
For a warlock, as already mentioned greater invisibility, but that comes online later and requires a particular patron.
Darkness is fantastic for the warlock. It can be a hassle for the party, but it's almost always more of a hassle for the enemy. But if the party doesn't want to synergize around it, then it probably isn't worth aggrevating them, even if it's generally tactically advantageous on the whole.
Well, you've got the help action from your familiar; at least the owl can fly-by-attack safely, and can't the imp go invisible at will?
Also, you haven't proven your case for easy. What you've proven is you can bother your DM and group through darkness-rock gymnastics until the DM just gives up and either hits you with an AoE to break concentration, or starts restricting short rests a bit.
● Only work if you have a familiar.
And
● Only applies to the first attack.Yeah I can definitely see how that's easier. Oh and your familiar has to survive.
You really are combative.
This guide won't help players play the game, please move it to the rules forum where things like this belong.
You know it might be useful for a party of ranged characters. Everyone sits inside just on the edge of the darkness. Takes a 5 foot out and attacks then steps back into it. Disadvantage for the return fires and everyone else is free to make attacks ,sure not at advantage but still having return fire hit less.
...until the enemies just start readying to shoot back at those who momentarily step out of the darkness.
Yunru wrote:
Even if that weren't the case, they go from being able to freely move and attack (with any option available to them), to moving then possibly attacking with one specifix attack.
1eejit wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Gunthar wrote:
Man, this thread is cray-cray!
[insert popcorn meme gif here]
Yunru wrote:
Reius wrote:
It would be an awesome tactic in the right situation. Otherwise, I don't think it really stands out any more than the numerous combos Zardnaar has come up with. Seems like there's too many if's involved for it to be a dependable option.
The monk/warlock PC in my Age of Worms game has this combo. Based on first-hand experience, I'd say it is pretty party-unfriendly. None of the rest of us like it when he does it. In fact, the wizard once cast a light spell to get rid of his darkness so the rest of us could see, which prompted the monk to issue a "If you ever do that again ..." threat to the wizard. I reckon it's badwrongfun if you haven't discussed it with the rest of the group first and gotten their OK. Otherwise, it comes across as a rather selfish, anti-team playerish thing to do.
pukunui wrote:
Sure. From an in-game perspective, it makes sense. I'm talking about a player who chooses to use that combo without clearing it with the rest of the group first.
D&D is a cooperative game. If your character isn't going to play nicely with the others, the least you can do is let your fellow players know that ahead of time.
Well, creating a party-unfriendly character sort of is giving advance notice that you're not going to play well with others. The tactic works fine if you're consistently playing at range, and consistently have room to play with. It breaks down if either of those becomes inconsistent.
Fitzco wrote:
Oh, I know and agree with you. But if in a D&D game, which says on the tin that it's a cooperative group game, a player shows up with a character that is obviously uncooperative, that is fair warning what the experience is going to be. The type of person who would do that is not the most likely type of person to do the nice thing and ask beforehand 
Fitzco wrote:
pukunui wrote:
We have an example of disagreeing to agree. Only on the intarwebs!
Fitzco wrote:
As I think about this, I think the Darkness/Devilsight combo makes for a great BBEG concept. They could set up their 'lair' to take advantage of it, may not care about their allies as much.
Someone even mentioned an 'all warlock' party. My take was a mafia type cabal of D/DS warlocks running their own gangs. The players run across one or two, and gain the Enmity of the entire cabal. Eventually leading to them fighting all of the (remaining) warlock leaders. Fighting 4-6 D/DS warlocks at once could be a really challenging fight. Especially since the BBEGs only need a few levels of Warlock each.
OTOH, since this builds up, the party should have some warning, and can prepare for it somewhat....
Hmmmmm.......
And then the DM sends a bunch of devils and modrons etc after the party, thus making all of the carefully crafted hoops to jump through disappear.
I'm not going to get into the argument of whether Darkness is friendly or not. I would just like to add an anecdote.
I played HotDQ using a strength-based Bladelock that relied on Darkness + Devil's Sight to reliably increase damage using Great Weapon Master. The rest of the group consisted of a Wizard, a Rogue and a Barbarian. We were doing Episode 4, and did the encounter "No Room at the Inn" with the four CR8 assassins. The only thing that allowed us to win was me casting Darkness. Doing so denied the assassins Sneak Attack damage and drastically reduced their chances of hitting us. The Barbarian's Rage prevented him from having to roll at disadvantage, as did the Rogue's abilty to hide before every attack thanks to Cunning Action (and since the enemy was effectively blinded by the Darkness, he didn't even have to move to hide). Lastly, the Wizard had plenty of spells that ignore AC. Had it not been for Darkness, the whole party would have been wiped by that encounter.
Yunru's whole point is that darkness is a wash for everyone but the warlock; the warlock gets advantage. If those assassins had rogue levels, they would still have had sneak attack by teaming up, and just normal rolls to attack. Your character is our working definition of party unfriendly; the rogue and barbarian lose advantage in order for you to get it. Your DM was (luckily for your party) generous in giving the assassins disadvantage, the rules don't force that.
Yunru wrote:
transcendantviewer wrote:
While this thread has been filled with a lot of useless bickering, and not much has been accomplished, I still feel inclined to share my 2 cp:
I've played a lot of spellcasters in my day (like, a LOT), and I would say that most of them had a Darkness-type spell. The vast majority of the time, it was used as a battlefield control spell to maneuver the enemy into a more favorable position for my allies and I to attack from. It's also been used as a distraction to make a get-away on numerous occasions. Finally, I've used it defensively in a battle where we were ambushed at night in a pitch-black room by a creature with Darkvision. Since we were all blind anyway, and I went first, the Darkness didn't hamper us, but it did prevent the duergar from being able to hit us for a round while we fumbled for a light source. Then, I just dropped the rock in my pocket and we were back in business.
What I haven't ever done, was try to use Darkness as a popemobile. Wandering around in a bubble of blackness while the rest of the party is forced to be at least 20' away so they can see is just not reasonable in most situations. Do a Google search for Dungeons and Dragons dungeon maps. Take a look and notice that a 30' diameter spell will completely encompass the vast majority of rooms created for dungeons (it's just an interesting point to note). It's really not worth all the trouble; you're getting disadvantage on attack rolls against you, but in exchange you're over-complicating combat for yourself and your party.
Last, and most importantly, it's really, really lame to just always be walking around in a bubble of darkness. How are you gonna get chicks like that!?
Either way...just my 2 cp
Yunru wrote: