Dealing Death: Handbook of the True Assassin
"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted."
— Alamut by Vladimir Bartol
Guide also available on Google Docs.
Table of Contents:
- Introduction
- Makeup of the True Assassin
- Class Options
- Races
- Feats
- Equipment
- FAQ
- Builds and Combos
This guide will use the following ratings:
Red is dead. A trap that you will want to avoid at all costs, either because it's ineffective or because it's thoroughly outclassed by another option that accomplishes something similar.
Purple is a substandard choice. It might be useful in corner-case situations, but overall it's not worth the investment.
Black is average. You're not hurting your character by taking this, and it might even help in some situations, but there are better choices.
Blue is a good choice. It definitely helps your character in the majority of cases.
Sky Blue is a fantastic choice. An option you should strongly consider above most others.
Gold is mandatory. It's a rare rating that denotes something that is so good that you must take it, or you can't call yourself optimized.
I. Introduction
What is a "True" Assassin?
Certainly it's a pure Rogue taking the Assassin archetype who goes all the way to Lv. 17 in the class for Death Strike, right?
Well, no. While Death Strike is certainly a sexy ability, it serves more as base compensation for sticking with the Rogue class for that long. While a pure Assassin Rogue no doubt has its own appeal and fun factor, Lv. 17 in that class represents a jarring jump in power that makes you wonder if there somehow were better options and smoother power gains up until that point.
And as it turns out, yes, there are!
All Assassins have to have some levels of Rogue, true. How many, you ask? 3. Yes, that's it. Three Rogue levels, entering the Assassin archetype, is enough to call yourself an Assassin in word and deed. Because in the feature of Assassinate is everything you need to execute (pardon the pun) deadly alpha strikes in every surprise round you can get.
The trick then becomes filling in the blanks after those 3 Rogue levels to take advantage of the automatic criticals madness the Assassinate feature offers. Sure, the Rogue's native Sneak Attack is one way. But there are better ways. Namely, getting more attacks. And getting extra damage dice from other sources, all of which get doubled on critical hits.
Build your Assassin right, and not only will you increase your damage on a smoother curve than just a Sneak Attack bump here and there, but you'll deal so much damage eventually that you'll be asking "What's Death Strike?"
And then you can call yourself a True Assassin.
II. Makeup of the True Assassin
The Essentials
To call yourself a True Assassin, you must possess the following, without exception:
Fighter 2: It is the Fighter class, and not the Rogue class, where every True Assassin starts. And why? Starting as a Fighter, rather than a Rogue, gets you proficiency in Constitution saves, rather than Dexterity. Why is this important? Because CON saves are not only more common, but they're the target of much nastier abilities than DEX saves, which are really only against raw damage. Plus if you're ever of a mind to take a spellcasting class down the line, you'll find that CON save proficiency helps you maintain concentration on those spells more easily. Starting as a Fighter also gets you slightly more hit points, but that's more of a footnote.
Starting as a Rogue would've allowed you a net gain of one more skill proficiency, true, but the CON save proficiency from starting as a Fighter outweighs that concern, especially when more than enough skill proficiencies can be obtained through backgrounds and races.
- Fighting Style (Lv. 1): Gives you a little boost in damage-dealing capability from the start. This is basically where you define how you're going to deal your death. If you're going the long-distance sniper route (very nice for dealing death beyond blindsight and truesight ranges!), Archery, with its +2 to hit with ranged weapons, is essential. If you plan to do more of your work in melee, dual-wielding is the best route since more attacks mean more crit dice, so you'll want to complement that with Two-Weapon Fighting and its modifier damage on the off-hand. If you're stubborn about using a single weapon, for whatever reason, then Dueling is there for you.
- Action Surge (Lv. 2): This is EXACTLY why any True Assassin will have 2 levels of this class. Once between short rests, an extra action means another Attack action, and another Attack action means more damage dice to double on those automatic criticals for one grand surprise-round nova.
Rogue 3: This is where you become an Assassin in word and deed. Note that leaving Rogue levels at 3 gives you a Sneak Attack bonus of 2d6, which on crit gets doubled to 4d6, or 14 average damage. That's not an insignificant amount, even with so few Rogue levels.
- Expertise (Lv. 1): Double your proficiency bonus on two of your proficient skills. That choice of skills to apply this to is pretty much made for Assassins already: Stealth and Deception.
- Cunning Action (Lv. 2): Dash, Disengage or Hide as a bonus action is very handy to have around when things go wrong. Completes with an off-hand attack if you're dual-wielding, though, so consider options wisely.
- Assassinate (Lv. 3): Obviously, this is why you're even reading this in the first place.
Extra Attack (1) (Fighter 5, Paladin 5, Ranger 5, or Thirsting Blade via Warlock 5): However you progress beyond the Fighter 2/Rogue 3 base of all True Assassins, you absolutely MUST get at least one extra attack for your Attack action somewhere in your progression, doubling your offense. This becomes ESPECIALLY important with Action Surge in play, in which case you can get AT LEAST four attacks (!) on your surprise round nova.
If you're keeping score, this means that the True Assassin comes online at character level 8 if you're going strictly Fighter/Rogue, or character level 10 if you're going the Paladin, Ranger or Warlock route.
(And yes, for completion's sake, Barbarian 5 or Bard (Valor) 6 would also get you Extra Attack, but let's face it, True Assassins have no reason to take levels in those classes. Paladin, Ranger and Warlock, on the other hand, do have goods to offer.)
Skills of the True Assassin
You'll start with two proficiencies by default from the Fighter, plus any from your race and background. When you multiclass Rogue, you'll get to take another skill proficiency. For the sake of not wasting anyone's time, and since skill proficiencies are a highly limited resource, and since you're a specialized profession, we're just going to list the skills you should really consider at all.
Stealth (DEX): Obviously essential. You'll have to get this from your race or background, or failing that pick this up when you multiclass to Rogue. Most of your surprise rounds will be set up by staying hidden against an enemy's Perception skill. As such, you will also definitely want to apply Expertise to this one.
Perception (WIS): This is on the Fighter class list, and you should definitely take this one to start. You don't want to fall for your own medicine, and group checks involving this skill are quite common, so proficiency here keeps you from being a liability.
Deception (CHA): This is practically your "social Stealth." As such, consider it necessary, and you'll want to Expertise it as well. You'll need to pick this up from race, background or Rogue multiclass. Depending on how you play it in such social situations, you might be able to set up surprise-round assassinations if you beat your quarry's Insight.
Acrobatics (DEX): This is on the Fighter class list, so it's a good choice to start. (Also on the Rogue's.) Comes in handy for countering grapples and shoves, and is used in many cases as the DEX alternative to Athletics.
Insight (WIS): Also on the Fighter (and Rogue) class list, and will typically oppose Deception and other attempts from people to lie. Another one of those skills you take to not fall for your own medicine.
Anything else is either "nice to have" or pretty much a complete waste.
Backgrounds of the True Assassin
Ideally, you'll be able to customize your background and just get your pick of the skills above. If you must work with the pregenerated Player's Handbook backgrounds, here are the choices that matter. Note that ALL of the backgrounds that matter will have at least one of Stealth or Deception, which is very important.
- Charlatan: Deception, plus Sleight of Hand can be useful if you need to slip poison in someone's drink, or something. False Identity comes in very handy if you need to go incognito for your dirty work. Disguise kit proficiency essentially works out to an eventual free tool proficiency of your choice, since the Assassin archetype also gives you that proficiency.
- Criminal/Spy: Deception and Stealth. Boom. Also thematically perfect. Need I say more? How about thieves' tools proficiency? When you multiclass Rogue, this background makes it so getting the thieves' tools from that turns into a free tool proficiency of your choice elsewhere. Criminal Contact can also come in handy.
- Urchin: Stealth, plus Sleight of Hand can come in handy. City Secrets can be good for exploration, plus again, that thieves' tools proficiency eventually works out to just a free tool proficiency of your choice. For that matter, so does the disguise kit.
Attributes of the True Assassin
- Dexterity: Your everything. Start it at 16 or 17 and get it to 20 as soon as you can. Governs your attack, your damage, your Stealth, your Armor Class and your initiative.
- Charisma: Governs Deception, so you'll want a solid score here. If you plan to multiclass Paladin or Warlock you'll need at least a 13 here (you'll likely want about a 12-14 to start regardless); Paladin in particular benefits from a higher CHA than that.
- Constitution: Everyone wants more hit points, and you're no exception. CON saves are also the most targeted in the game, and failing those can be nasty. If you don't need anything else for multiclassing, put any points not dedicated to DEX or CHA here.
- Wisdom: You can probably get away with a 10 in most cases, but you certainly don't want to dump it entirely, since failing WIS saves, which are fairly common, can be very, very bad. It also governs Perception and Insight. If you want to multiclass Ranger, you need a 13 here.
- Strength: Most Assassin builds can dump this with little consequence. The only Assassins that care about this at all are those who want to multiclass Paladin, in which case they'll need this at 13. It is well worth that price of admission, though.
- Intelligence: No Assassin needs this. Dump it.
III. Class Options
Once you've accounted for the necessary Fighter 2/Rogue 3 and Extra Attack somewhere, there's several paths to the way of the True Assassin.
Fighter (past 2): The Fighter class has much to offer beyond the necessary 2 levels to get Action Surge. Besides what's listed below, another major selling point of more Fighter levels is more ability score increases (which can also be feats) than any other class. Aside from the standard 4/8/12/16/19 progression, you also get an extra one each at Fighter levels 6 and 14.
- Combat Superiority (Lv. 3, Battle Master): Four d8 Superiority Dice and your choice of three maneuvers to start. Thing about Superiority Dice is that they get doubled on those delicious auto-crits like all other damage dice, making Battle Master the archetype of choice for True Assassins.
Trip Attack: Melee or ranged. Knocking the enemy on its rear is one of the best things you can do. If you're using this as a ranged attack, however, save this for the last attack in your sequence so you don't get disadvantage.
Precision Attack: Melee or ranged. Sometimes you just want to hit, rather than deal the extra die in damage. The fact you can apply this after your attack roll makes this very useful, indeed. Did a particular attack roll you made look bad? Use this.
Menacing Attack: Melee or ranged. If they're not immune to fear, make them scared to approach you! If they're even alive after your surprise nova.
Distracting Strike: Melee or ranged. Good for setting up advantage for an ally if Trip Attack doesn't work (because the enemy is bigger than Large).
Maneuvering Attack: Melee or ranged. Free surprise-round movement for an ally is good to enable while doing your dirty work.
Feinting Attack: Melee (practical). This is one for the single-weapon duelists with a high number of Rogue levels and a Sneak Attack high enough to make this useful. Don't use this for an alpha strike, but on subsequent rounds this can be worthy to get Sneak Attack damage when you otherwise couldn't.
IV. Races
Dwarf (Any): Nope. Stat bonuses don't match, in any case, and there's nothing to really make up for it.
Elf (High): Only the +2 DEX bonus, Darkvision and automatic Perception proficiency are at all relevant. The INT bonus and the INT-based cantrip sure aren't.
Elf (Wood): Now we're talking. Gets the +2 DEX and automatic Perception proficiency all Elves get, the +1 WIS isn't a waste since it's a needed save, and the extra speed and Stealth in lightly obscured areas are huge.
Elf (Drow): Stats all in the right places with +2 DEX and +1 CHA, plus the usual Perception. Farther-reaching Darkvision than other Elves, too, for better night operation, although Sunlight Sensitivity can be a pain during the day. With a decent CHA you can even make use of the innate Drow spells to a degree.
Halfling (Lightfoot): +2 DEX and +1 CHA, and Small size doesn't hurt considering your typical Sneak Attack weapons are all fair game. Lucky protecting you from that dreaded natural 1 is also great. Only weakness is lack of Darkvision. Lightfoot lets you Stealth whenever a Medium ally can obscure you.
Halfling (Stout): Replaces the +1 CHA with +1 CON, and the Stealth boost with resistance to poison. Still pretty good, if not quite as good as Lightfoot at the assassination trade.
Human (Stock): Meh. +1 to all stats and nothing else, especially when the bottom of them are likely to go to waste, is unimpressive.
Human (Variant): This version of the Human, on the other hand, is fantastic for anything in the game, and assassination is no exception. The bonus feat makes this race, letting you get an ability at Lv. 1 many other characters would have to wait until at least Lv. 12 to get. Free skill proficiency of your choice is also great. And you get two floating +1 bonuses to put where you need to (DEX and probably CHA in your case). Only weakness at all is lack of Darkvision.
V. Feats
Most True Assassins will likely wind up an ability increase/feat short of your typical single-class characters. Thus, judicious picking of feats is especially critical, although you'll probably have more options than most if you stick strictly to Fighter and Rogue levels.
Alert: If you can't get a surprise round, you at least want to make sure you go first so you can stilll get advantage the first round of combat, if nothing else. This feat all but guarantees that will happen. A prime pick for Assassins, for sure.
Crossbow Expert: If you're working from range, this is a prime choice. Getting a bonus-action attack from dual-wielding two hand crossbows helps your surprise round damage all that much more, and ignoring the loading quality means you'll get all the attacks expected of you when using crossbows. Perfect.
Dual Wielder: Arguable whether an average of +1 damage (+2 on crits) from upgrading from 2 shortswords to 2 rapiers is worth it. But it doesn't really hurt, either, as long as you maxed out your DEX first.
Magic Initiate: If you don't want to dip Warlock levels to pick up Hex, then consider this alternative. You only get one casting of that spell per day in this case, but that can be useful for that one big surprise nova you want to really make hurt.
Sharpshooter: A great choice if you work primarily from range. Removing disadvantage from long range lets you snipe reliably from wherever you please practically (like well out of everyone's blindsight or truesight ranges), and ignoring anything short of total cover is also sweet. The hit-for-damage trade is good sometimes (namely, if you're forced into straight combat), but not so good for a surprise nova, since you don't get static bonuses multiplied on crits or any other time.
Skulker: Terrific for a pure Rogue (Assassin) who only ever gets one attack on their Attack action. For you, on the other hand, not quite as necessary, since you're bound to hit at least once with as many attacks as you'll put out on a surprise nova. Hiding in light obscurity is nice, though, if you're not already a Wood Elf.
VI. Equipment
Coming soon.
VII. FAQ
Coming soon.
VIII. Builds and Combos
All of the class and level combinations below have at least four ability score increases (or feats). You really do not want to dip below that.
(Note: All Fighter levels beyond 3 are of the Battle Master archetype, all Rogue levels beyond 3 are of the Assassin archetype, and all Ranger levels beyond 3 are of the Hunter archetype.)
Fighter 17/Rogue 3
-
6 ASIs/feats, 3 attacks/Attack action, Action Surge 2/short rest, 6 Superiority Dice (d10s), 2d6 Sneak Attack
+11 vs. AC 20, w/ advantage = .84
Action Surge (3 attacks/action), 2 shortswords or hand crossbows (via Crossbow Expert) (1 bonus action attack) = 7 attacks
Per hit (auto-crit) damage:
5 DEX
+2d6 (7) shortsword/hand crossbow crit
+2d10 (11) Superiority Dice crit (6 attacks only)
Once per round damage:
+4d6 (14) Sneak Attack crit
6*(.84*23) + (.84*12) + (1-.16^7)*14
= 140
9
10
11
12.
That should be enough. You can post now.
Heh... I have been building a similar concept, but it started as an Archer, and I didn't even notice as the character concept morphed into an Assassin. Now I may have to make room in my build for 2 fighter levels. (was Ranger Rogue planned)
You seem to put a lot of emphasis on Cha and Deception.... why is that?
I don't think Alert feat should be sky blue. While it is helpful to have advantage first turn.... assassins really need to get surprise to truly shine. I don't think 'just' getting advantage is sky blue... perhaps regular blue
If you like Battle Master fighter, perhaps include Martial Adept feat. (not great, but pehaps noteworthy.)
Last, what is your opinion on the importance of ASi vs the feats..... when should you take which.
Thanks for another guide.
Seems like a lot of work for something that hits about as hard as a Rogue (Assassin) 20. If you wanted to illustrate the effect better, maybe emphasize levels prior to 17 where the lack of Death Strike would make more of a difference in damage.
That's really what multiclassing seems to amount to in 5e, anyway - short term power gains at the expense of powerful level 20 capstone features.
I think the AC 20 in the examples may be a bit of an overestimation as well, but I don't have the MM yet.
Anyway, let's be conservative and use high monster defenses:
Rogue 20 with shortbow
+11 vs. AC 20, w/ advantage = .84, w/ Stroke of Luck = 1
Save DC 19 Death Strike vs +8 Con (50% save rate, or 50% bonus damage from Death Strike)
1 attack
Per turn (auto-crit) damage:
5 DEX
+2d6 (7) shortbow crit
+20d6 (70) Sneak Attack crit
= 82
82 * 1 * (1.50)
= 123
I'd rate Perception higher than Deception for Expertise.
Bard 2 gets you 1/2 proficiency to all non-proficient checks including Initiative (combos with Reliable Talent?).
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I like the idea of guides for specific archetypes rather than classes. One note though: You mention the Ranger's Fighting Style is sky blue but.. Since you are definitely getting a Fighting Style from Fighter, and iIIRC n the MC rules it specifically states you can only ever get one (Champion being the only exception).
1eejit wrote:
While not the highest in spike Damage, EK 7's War Magic + Eldritch Blast + Sneak Attack Weapon Attack is worth considering, especially as it has the advantage of sustainablility. Granted, it requires maxing both Dex and Cha for best effect.
Assuming at least EK 7/Rogue 3/Warlock 2 with Elditch Blast, Hex, Agonizing Blast, and Action Surge, you're looking at 9 attacks doing during an Action Surged Assassinate:
8 x (2d10 + 5cha +2d6 hex) = 184
1 x 2d8 (rapier) + 5dex +2dualist +2d6 hex + 4d6 sa = 37
Total: 221
Not too shabby, especially since you still have 8 levels to play with and it requires minimum resource expenditure.
Or something lilke that.
Yunru wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Considering your biggest nova involves auto-critting off a surprise round, and Battle Master Superiority Dice doubling on crit are a huge source of damage, I'd say Champion is definitely not worth giving that up.
GladiusLegis wrote:
I love the focus of this guide.
That said, Monk's extra attacks to crit with should definitely be considered. Martial Arts requires you to be unarmored to benefit from it, but Flurry of Blows does not.
I like the concept of this guide. Outside of the box thinking over what an Assassin is really sounds fun. I need to dig into it a little more, but I do have one question and one minor issue:
Question: Will it play out as stretched a little too thin? Multiclassing between potentially three classes can stretch your stats thin, leaving little to no room for feats. Also, delaying class abilities/spells by several levels looks like there might be an odd power vaccuum during playing. Do you think that it will be able to keep up?
Issue: This is really minor, and mostly a matter of my own personal taste, but I find that your rate an awful lot of things as GOLD. A lot of these options seem like really strong choices, but not quite MUST HAVES.
Jell_Moo wrote:
No invisibility?
Also, skulker is still good for multi-attack. Since if you miss your first attack, you still keep advantage on your second.
mellored wrote:
Also some features are rated without the other option being discussed - e.g. Hunter Ranger subclass where Whirlwind or Horde Breaker aren't even mentioned and rated as (perhaps) Black.
Another thing that could maybe be emphasised more is the consumption of limited resources.
Action Surge will refresh once per short rest, unless you've got 17 in fighter in which case you get two uses.
Paladin Smite will use spell slots which will refresh on a long rest.
Battlemaster dice are short rest.
Monk Ki recharge on a short rest.
Barbarian Rage recharges on a long rest (but has a nice duration)
Bard spells at a long rest.
Warlock spells on a short rest.
This all matter because you may want strong auto-crit rounds more than once per day. Even if you don't manage to get a successful surprise round on a Big Bad it could still easily succumb to a hold spell from an ally (or yourself if a Warlock or Valor Bard). This will also give automatic critical on melee attacks. The hold spells can really be cast quite often, and would favour those builds relying less on long-day novas.
Valor 6 also get's extra attack.
Yup, that's why I listed it too
Valor Bard 15/Rogue 2/Fighter 3 would get around 150 damage with crit Hex and high-level Elemental Weapons on an Action Surge.
Not here.
Extra Attack (1) (Fighter 5, Paladin 5, Ranger 5, or Thirsting Blade via Warlock 5):
@Mellored, Skulker isn't really needed (for the attacking part) if the build's focus in on Assassinate, because Assassinate provides turn-long advantage regardless of hits or misses. High initiative and stealth/deception are more important, in my opinion.
I agree that this build is very resource-heavy, that's what most "nova" builds try to do - attempt to shoehorn as many resources as possible into one turn for big damage. A Rogue, Fighter (Battle Master)/Rogue or Monk/Rogue version would recharge after a short rest, but a Paladin version expends daily resources for higher burst albeit potentially fewer times per day.
Hold person/monster are fantastic ways to get critical hits, but that can generally be better achieved working with a team, both to limit the enemy's chances to remove the spell before the fighters can hit and to reduce ability score dependencies. For the purposes of this build, I don't think hold spells are necessary, but they would work excellently coming from another character to supplement the assassin's effectiveness.
I think that Half-Orc is a strong suggestion if not prerequisite for a high-level build if going to maximize the damage of the multi-attack route. It would lag behind in stats (Dex) for a while, compared to a Dex race or human, but a Rogue/Fighter should be able to shore those up relatively quickly, thanks to the added ability increases. In exchange, later on in his or her career, the character can add several extra dice per "surprise turn."
A completely surprise-focused assassin may run into a lot of situations where he or she can't get an "assassination" in a typical day, so it may be nice to be slightly more diversified and not totally focused on surprised enemies.
Why no sorcerer?
Warlock 2/Assassin 3/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 13
Eldrich blast (advantage + crit) + action surge (eldrich blast advantage + crit) + quicken finger of death (1/2 on miss) = 16d10 + 40 + 7d8 + 30 = 189.5
+ zombie.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
In the case of Fighter 2/Warlock 2/Rogue 3/Sorcerer 13,
You could turn the finger of death into an Elemental Affinity scorching ray for 32d6+40 (8 critical rays with +5 damage each), which should net significant extra damage considering advantage on the attack rolls.
Assume 84% to hit with advantage,
eldritch blast x 2 = 16d10+40 (critical) (128)
scorching ray (7th level) = 32d6+40 (critical) (152)
0.84(128 + 152) = 235.2
Could even throw in Empower Spell for a bit of extra damage as well.
mellored wrote:
Just gotta have enough movement on the first turn to get up close, land that contagion, move 5' away, and unleash the fireworks.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
1eejit wrote:
mellored wrote:
1eejit wrote:
True, but on the other hand you'll be a halfling.
1eejit wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
I'll take another look at Barbarian, Monk and Sorcerer and add that later.
GladiusLegis wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Yunru wrote:
bid wrote:
@Aaron. Those numbers are accurate. There's no rounding.
Alert seems like it should be GOLD, and even before stat bumps.
Many people assert that the target is no longer surprised after its first turn, even though it doesn't get an action until its second turn. (I don't agree, but it seems many do.)
The Advantage is also lost once the target gets its first turn.
So.... If the Assassin has a higher Init, it gets advantage *and* double crit. If the Assassin gets a lower Init roll, it does not get advantage and does not get double crit.
It seems like the entire concept of an assassin strike completely relies on winning that Init roll.
Even with an 18 Dex, going against a measly 12 Dex, the assassin fails 33% of the time.
Compare with a 16 Dex and Alert going against 12 Dex, the assassin fails only 14% of the time
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Forest Gnomes should be ranked much higher. Granted they are not the best, but they get +1 dex and Minor Illusion for setting up an ambush. I know you are thinking that Minor Illusion without stat bumps will be seen through easily. However, it takes the creature one action to attempt it even if they have a godlike investigate skill. And that gives you exactly enough time to catch them unaware.
This is a really good guide! Could you make help me with my idea of a Battlemaster/Arcane Trickster? I plan on making one for my next campaign (He will be a Half-Elf)
Cautionary note on Monk(Assassin)'s: the Flurry of Blows attacks are made with your empty / unarmed hand, so they may not be eligible for anything that boosts weapon attacks.
But if it does work, you can look forward to giving people multi-d10's with just one finger...
(and make this guy jealous) 
1eejit wrote:
BRJN wrote:
dualst for 2 can potentially work.
an you can pick it up on the way to get action surge.
IxidorRS wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
1eejit wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Ah I misread the spell progression table. Ok, cool.
While may be not the DMGE king Rogue3/Monk12(shadow)/Fighter5 will be nice to play.
(Attacks 3 + 2 flurry)*2 (action surge), 4 superiority dice, costs 2 ki
12 Ki to spend
lvl 3: 2 Ki: cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, silence
lvl 6: Teleport 60 in dim lidgt/darkeness, autoadvantage on first melee attack as bonus action at no other cost
lvl 11: action: become invisible in dim lkight/darkness until attack
Add stunning strike, evasion, immunity poison, speed +20 and other goodies.
DSZ wrote:
If you want to MC Monk (for Flurry of Blows), a True Assassin doesn't really need to go beyond the (only) Extra Attack at L5. After that, a Monk is piling status effects on the enemy who survived his first assault - and "the enemy who survived" is antithetical to our purpose here.
Be aware, though, that Flurry uses your Bonus Action for the turn, and you're only doing d6+mod with it.
IxidorRS wrote:
15 wizard evocation / 3 rogue assassin / 2 fighter
variant human, magic initiate (hex up to 2 targets), con 18 int 20, hps 171
Targets are surprised have hex up
Overchannel scorching ray as a 5th level spell - 6 attacks
action surge Overchannel scorching ray as a 5th level spell - 6 attacks taking 10d12=65 damage
Attacks:12
Hex Damage: 72*6+60=492
Nice thing about this build is you are still left with plenty of spell slots after nova round while I'm guessing the above build won't have many spell slots left. With this build you could take one level of warlock instead of 15th wizard to get hex that way but you will lose spell slots. as hinted at this build doesn't use bonus action which could be used to retarget hex or cast it if you for some reason couldn't have it up before attacking. Obviously 18 con isn't required for the build but I just put it there to show you could have plenty of hps to survive the second overchannel. If you don't want to take damage from overchannel then one of the scorching rays can be regular cast as a 8th level spell and damage won't go down much. 9 attacks 54d6+45=234 for a total of 480, not overchanneling at all though the other cast would have to be at 7th level slot for 8 attacks 48d6+40=208 for a total of 442.
You can beat this by alot if your dm lets you twin cast scorching ray which is a reason not to allow it.
15 sorcerer (draconic fire)/ 3 rogue assassin / 2 fighter
variant human, magic initiate(hex), elemental adept (fire), 20 cha
Targets surprised have hex up
Twin Cast scorching ray as an 8th level - 18 attacks, 9 on hex target
action surge twin cast scorching ray as a 7th level spell - 16 attacks, 8 on hex target(could retarget to other one)
Attacks: 34
Damage: 170d6*+170=788(23 from elemental adept only applied to fire damage, would be more if applies to hex damage also)
This does use more daily resources but still seems overpowered to me. If your dm allows this they would also allow twinning eldritch blast.
13 sorcerer (draconic fire)/ 3 rogue assassin / 2 fighter / 2 warlock
variant human, elemental adept (fire), agonizing blast, 20 cha
Targets surprised have hex up
quicken Cast scorching ray as an 8th level - 9 attacks all on hex target
Twin Cast eldritch blast - 8 attacks, 4 on hex target
action surge Twin Cast eldritch blast - 8 attacks, 4 on hex target
Attacks: 25
Damage: 16d10 + 70d6* + 125=464(6 from elemental adept only applied to fire damage, would be more if applies to hex damage also)
a lot less damage but less resources, saves a 7th level spell slot and 11 sorcery points and still comparable to wizard damage.
numerek wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
numerek wrote:
Fantastic thread, huge thanks to everyone
I understand most of this is theoretical but I am struggling with the idea of using Hex in conjunction with surprise and assassination. Hex has a verbal component and takes up the bonus action to cast. With that being the case wouldn't a suprise round have considerable reduced effect if you are using your bonus action to Hex?
And to check my understanding surprise is now just the first turn of combat after initiative is rolled and if someone is a surprised they do not get to act in the first round. Do you trigger assassinate even if you act later in the round than a surprised opponent?
So Endar the Assassin (battlemaster 3 / assassin 3 / warlock 1) sneaks into the bandit camp and attempts to murder Bumbledor the bandit blaster while he is on watch. Bumbledor is surprised. Initiative is remarkably in favor of Bumbledor, but Endar is still hidden with a successful stealth check. Bumbledor can't act on his turn because he is surprised. Endar casts Hex on Bumbledor as his bonus action then attacks using his handcrossbow with menacing attack. The attack still triggers assassinate's auto-crit correct even though he acts later in initiative than Bumbledor? doing 2d6 (xbow) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 2d6 (hex) + 2d8 (superiority die) + static dmg.
If Endar used his bonus attack to trigger crossbow expertise and shoot again with his crossbow on the surprise round wouldn't that be better, especially if you decide to use another superiority dice on the 2nd attack? doing potentially 4d6 (xbow) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d8 (superiority die) + static dmg x2.
after either of these situations you would action surge I guess which might bring hex back into line.
Or are you all suggesting that before initiative is rolled you would be able to Hex without Bumbledor knowing that he was about to get shot?
In situations where you are not generating an additional attack with your bonus action Hex is obviously an amazing choice, is it worth doing if you could instead be using that bonus action to deliver another critical hit?
Yunru wrote:
2nd question then.
Can you use action surge to ready an attack to happen the next turn before they act and still have it trigger assassinate? Basically getting a critical sneak attack again.
I know that was a thing in 4e, not sure if it still is.
Yunru wrote:
Yes, you can use action surge with ready and Sneak Attack to get double Sneak Attack criticals. In practice, this may be difficult to execute, because you need to set a condition for your readied action that you are fairly sure will occur, and will occur before the target finishes their first turn (during which the target will almost assuredly do nothing worthy of a readied action trigger, due to surprise). It most likely requires a teammate or helper.
That being said, I think that it is more feasible than "prepping" a hex spell prior to combat.
IMO: Any V spell would break stealth, unless the target was deaf, or you had some kind of distraction going.
Though, there are some spells that are not V, which you could only do in stealth.
That said, you could surprise someone with a V spell, then win inititive (paticularly if you hamper them) and still go first. I'm not sure how that would interact with assassin though.
mellored wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
mellored wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I'll just toss out that truestrike is S only. Thus perfectly valid to use for stealth.
Though, still a bad spell in general.
mellored wrote:
7he_professor wrote:
What about a Distant Hex? Surely your target couldn't hear your V component from 180 feet away, right? It's a hard call, though. Should the Hex signal the start of the combat encounter, or not? Would an unsuspecting target know they're Hexed? Since Hex isn't exactly an attack, you should still remain hidden. Then again, neither is Fireball (no attack roll), but surely you wouldn't remain hidden after casting that, would you?
Just to confirm, for a Longbow-user the best route is to go " Fighter 11/Rogue 9 " right?
You're better off using a hand crossbow. The split is fine, though for practical play I like squeeze in 3 levels of Warlock for Devil's Sight/Darkness, letting you make Sharpshooter attacks with the ranged style bonus and advantage.
Doesn't seem like Blade pact is really compatible with it, so you may as well grab an invisible familiar scout. Does give you advantage on saves against spells, though, which is nice, and can use Help any turn you need it for Sneak Attack.
mellored wrote:
7he_professor wrote:
Figher 11 is really useful for the extra attack, but I still prefer Ranger. The Collosus slayer (or Horde breaker) and Volley are great abilities. Even Land's Stride and Hide in Plain Sight are useful when you are taking advantage of your range for sniping. Getting spells like Hunters Mark, Ensaring Strike, Silence, Lightning Arrow, etc also work well. And I think Ranger gives more benefits while you are leveling.
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Any ideas on how to build an assassin monk from 1 to 20? I really like the 6th level feature from the way of the shadow monk subclass but i just can't seem to figure out the whole build.
wretchd wrote:
BRJN wrote:
1eejit wrote:
wretchd wrote:
Thank you for another magnificent guide. As someone else said in a previous post, that is some really good out of the box thinking. Now on to my question...
There is this concept of a paly assasin spy, that I have really close to my heart. Due to personal reasons that have to do with flavour, I decided to go with variant human and grab the medium armor master feat, picking a half plate as soon as I can afford it and still be stealthy. Then I pretty much follow the advice of the guide, as it fits my taste, and obviously is really good advice in terms of char-opt. So I expect to be fighter2/ rogue3/ paladin2 at character level 7, starting as a fighter for con save proficiency as noted.
My intention was to progress in paladin levels for the extra attack (at character level 10), and other benefits (hunter's mask, hold person, vow of enmity- so that I could stand in a duel after I take out the first guy with the nova, plus vengence paly fits with my desired concept- and other useful features). The main problem of this character, is the lack of darkvision, which could result in some serious problems in certain situations. This could be fixed by taking 2 warlock levels along the way (for devil's sight), but if I take 2 levels of warlock, I cold not possibly stop there, but take a 3rd level of warlock as well, in order to grab invisibility. That however strains my character too thin in terms of power, as I get fewer bumps/feats, dealy even more getting useful features, and smite does not power up.
Since I am determined to bring paly levels into the build mostly for rp reasons (it works really good as well), I wonder how wise it would be to also take warlock levels, as the warlock solves a lot of the problems of the variant human assassin (mainly darkvision) and offers great help sneaking up on people (invisibility).
1) So, is there another way to address my lack of darvision, granted I am a human, and rogue fighter and paly are already in my plans? Everything that could help here would be useful, from spells and features to proper and cunning use of items...
2) Also, how important do you think the lack of invisibility would be, given that I would have a very decent stealth skill (rogue expertise on that)?
I could really use some collaborative thinking on this one, so any advice would be very much appreciated!!! Thanks in advance!
Corran21 wrote:
There is some interesting information in this guide, but it's really a guide to a particular multiclass build, not a class guide or even a sub-class guide in general.
It's also presumptuous (and wrong) to try to preempt the name "True Assassin" for this particular multi classed build. A true assassin would be a single classed build. Maybe "Munchkin Assassin" would be more appropriate? Or just call it a "Nova Assassin."
That said, I agree with the implied criticism of the power curve to 17.
Yunru wrote:
Either you acknowledge that there are many archetypes and thus a true assassin cannot be confined to a single build or class, or you claim the only true assassins must be single classed.
Yunru wrote:
I think cutting the Barbarian and Bard was quite short-sighted.
Rogue8 (Assassin)/Fighter4 (B.Master)/Barb8 (Bear Totem)
You get advantage on: Attacks, Initiative, DEX Saves, and STR checks. This also happens to be the weird corner case build that can use Medium Armor Mastery, a Medium Armor-using STR-based attacker who wants to be stealthy. This frees you up to -not- max DEX for your AC. A free feat basically, and this build has alot of wiggle room for feats. Only need 2 ASI's to max STR, the rest can go where you want. This build also automatically works as a great grapple build, and you can space a feat for something like Tavern Brawler. Not as super-duper high nova, but ALOT more survivable and can switch gears after the surprise round and control the battlefield with manuvers, feats, and grappling.
Rogue 4 (Assassin)/ Fighter 4 (B.Master)/ Bard 12 (Valor)
You list Deception as 'social stealth', but neglect the master of social manuvering? Illusion spells, Alter Self, Comprehend Languages, Expertise on 6 Skills, and the highest static initiative modifier one can achieve if you can squeeze in Alert. Can run 2WF pretty easy with just the Warcaster feat. Still got manuvers, can go invisible or impersonate the enemy as you please. Not the most spell casting, but enough to get the good stuff. Also a capable healer!
Don't expect the OP to be edited. Not many guide posters do that other than good ole' Mellored.
Yeah, I'm abandoning this one. I've already got a Paladin guide to maintain and get around to updating with DMG stuff, and I'm working (slowly) on a Ranger guide. Both of which I imagine are much better uses of my time and energy on this site.
What is the +100 from?
+45 (Lv. 20 Cleric Touch of Death) + 5 ability = +50 per attack
But it wouldn't work with Crossbow Expertise, because Touch of Death is melee only.
Cool.
Looking at it, it looks like it only works for one attack. What makes you feel differently?
It does work for only one attack, but you use it twice in the same round (if you hit with both attacks) once you get the ability to use Channel Divinity twice per short rest.
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Yunru wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Although the OP assassinated this thread, I think it is important to mention the DM is in control of surprise and you shouldn't keep asking the DM over and over and over and over and over again...."Do I have surprise?"
I like my portent wizard2/assassin rogue3 for now. I like controlling the fates more than killing the target by plus 50 damage. Hey, I worry less about hitting and I like to cast spells and portenting saves. I also like setting up the one shot scenario so I don't think that extra attacks are very 'clean', sorta speak.
I play a snobby assassin, YMMV. Have fun with whatever you create.
PS. FINISH YOUR GUIDES!
Miladoon wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Except its dark, so you can't see them, so you *don't* know where they are.
Yunru wrote:
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. W hen you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically m iss, but the DM typically just says that the attack m issed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly. W hen a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you m ake an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or m isses.
1eejit wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Plaguescarred4 wrote:
Plaguescarred4 wrote:
Too bad we can't pull this argument out of the current thread and start its own thread.
The exact distance at which you can still hear something, or even see it, and pinpoint where it is, is not specified in the rules. This is left to DM interpretation. 4e had a very specific ruleset regarding the coveted Hidden status, which boils down to: every mini on the board knows where everything else is, regardless of concealment, until one of them tries to Hide. This may be counterintuitive, but then hiding is a no-action in 4e, so it wasn't that restrictive. In 5e, you still have to pay your action tax to get the privilege of something not having any clue where you are. That's RAW.
Knowing where stuff is simplifies combat. Before walking around a corner in a cave, your party is usually completely oblivious to what's around the corner unless they make Perception checks or something. But as soon as combat starts, suddenly they're looking in every direction at once and they know where the enemies are, even if one of them retreats behind a piece of rock and the rest of the party doesn't. This is because all players share the same map, and no DM wants to keep track of who every creature on the board can see/knows about, nor which directions they're facing and whether they notice and can turn around when someone walks up behind them. It's a metagame convention, and not meant to accurately simulate awareness in combat.
Personally, I would say that at 600' away, you could not know which square an enemy is standing in if you lost line of sight and there was other ambient noise happening (particularly, the noise of multiple creatures bumbling around in the same cloud of darkness). But at 50', sure. You don't know their exact position, which is represented by the attack penalty, but you know well enough that you don't risk auto-miss by targeting the wrong 5' cube. But if it was a hovering imp or something, which can "sidestep" without making the slightest noise, I would again say (house rule) that you don't know where it is.
EDIT: further clarification. When you make an attack with disadvantage, it's because your ability to hit a mark and the enemy's ability to avoid being hit are still significant factors (i.e. it's not a total crapshoot), but randomness is significantly higher to work against the attacker - in this case, specifically because the target could move in an arbitrary way that makes the attack miss. Because they're not making an effort to hide, you can still tell their general direction, and thus have the "right" to make an attack against them rather than rolling a d100 or something to see if you hit. The fact that you can't pinpoint them is simulated by disadvantage, but the fact that you're not completely unaware of their location is simulated by being able to attack them at all.
Macv12 wrote:
Core, I'm sorry the rules don't agree with what you think is realistic. That's not what they're for. What you think is realistic is unique to you, so at your game, you can rule however you want. The rules provide a baseline for making fair judgments, which a DM can stick to or disregard as needed. You can voice your opinion about the ways in which a DM should or shouldn't deviate from RAW, but that doesn't change what RAW is, which is what is being argued here.
I'm not going to answer your question, because I already answered it in the post you quoted.
Coredump00 wrote:
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I just wish you would be consistent, or at least acknowledge that you are using two different, completely unrelated, rationales for doing 'what you want'
There *is no* rule covering "PCs' metagame super-senses", or anything about knowing enemy locations as gaming convention....
If you want to use those...fine. But lets not conflate that with some abiity for a person to tell which is which for people moving around in the dark. You want to allow PCs to 'just know' where everyone in a completely dark room is because that is easier for you... no problem, have at it. But then stop with the foolishness about being able to 'hear' their exact location.
But you are being very inconsistent... which is fine for how you run your game, but please don't try and claim that is how it is 'supposed to work'. It is completely arbitrary that they can hear 100' away, but not if they are 3' around a corner.
They can hear 100' away, but not if there is a door in the way. Since there is complete darkness.... they can't even see the door... but if its there they can't hear....
And again... you *Don't have disadvantage" in this situation.... you can't see (disad) and are unseen (Adv) so they cancel out.
Now, to be fair, I am glad to see you do have some limits on the range. (the other poster did not seem to...) We just differ on that range.
If there were 5 creatures moving around a room, I doubt most people could even tell you how many people were in there, let alone *where* they were. Add in people yelling, and attacks and magic.... there is just no way...
Stand in a dark room, with someone 15' away... have him move 5', and try and 'know' which way he moved. Now pretrend there are 5 people doing that all at once, and they are further away.
Now, if you want to ignore that becuase you think it is easier, or more fun, or more heroic, or whatever.... thats cool... just be forthcoming that you are adapting for purely metagaming reasons.
Coredump00 wrote:
Hmmm.... It looks like I was lumping you in as believing the same as Yunru... and for that I apologize.
He was claiming that you can tell where everyone was i complete darkness over 600' away. *And* he was claiming this was how it is defined in the rules... so that was the situation when you joined the discussion, so I pushed some of that onto you. (Of course, he also asserts that 10 feel in the game is shorter than 10 feet in real life, so whatever...)
Macv12 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Just a quick question. Going back to the original post, and assuming one would pick the warlock route, shouldn't just 2 levels of warlock be enough to take the thirsting blade invocation, assuming the character is of level equal to or greater than 5? I think that invocations' prerequisites refer to character level and not warlock level. So, given that a character selects the recommended base (2 fighter/ 3 rogue), the warlock route would be the one granting the extra attack the soonest possible. Am I right on this one?
mellored wrote:
To be clear. The rule is "you know where things are unless they make an effort to hide from you." In honesty I can't find a citation explicitly saying exactly that, just the sidebar for Hiding on PHB 177. It says that even an invisible creature "still has to stay quiet." Has to...or else what? It has to Hide, or else it's not hidden. Its location is known. Also, PHB 194-195 details Unseen Attackers. "When attacking a target you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location, or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see." So explicitly, if you can hear the creature to know their location (direction and approximate distance; not unreasonable to guess), you only have disadvantage.
That's just the RAW. Everything else I gave was my personal judgment. The rules are deliberately vague and incomplete to allow room for that. This whole discussion started talking about a warlock using Darkness. Basically, for other allies or the warlock, if they can hear the things inside the Darkness, they can attack them with neither advantage nor disadvantage, because they cancel out. I would not necessarily rule this way in all cases, but I would acknowledge that I'm going outside the rules to make that judgment.
It seems like most of our actual rulings would agree, so I'll let that be my final note and give the thread back to people talking about the build.
Yunru wrote:
S n e a k A t t a c kBeginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Basically what I'm saying is the numbers I gave was for an unoptimized build.
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I recently got the idea of a Fighter 2/Rogue 3 (Assassin)/Wizard 15 (Evoker), because it looks fun to just go insane with Overchannel...
If you've got an Int of 20, and you cast Overchanneled Empowered Scorching Ray as a 5th-level spell twice, that's 29 (2d6+5 critting maximized ) damage per bolt with 12 bolts, coming out to be 348 damage in one turn. And if you spend a feat to get Hex, that's an additional 2d6 (7) damage per bolt, ending up at 432. You yourself will take 65 (10d12) necrotic damage immediately afterward.
Alternatively, if you'd rather spend a higher-level slot, you can do 9 bolts of 19 (2d6+5 critting) instead of the overchanneled one, which comes out to 171 damage. 29*6=174, so adding everything together (plus the bonus damage from Hex) you're looking at 171+174+7*15, resulting in 450 damage, no overchannel penalty.
If you spend another feat to get Elemental Adept (Fire), your Scorching Ray will ignore resistance, and the average damage will go up from 3.5 to 3 and 2/3. Not that much, but very handy if you roll all 1s. Since the total formula is 6*29+9*[4*3.667+5]+15*7, this would boost damage to just over 456. If you don't overchannel at all, it'll boost more.
If my simulacrum casts it at the same time, you're looking at 912 damage.
Of course, Action Surge + Cloudkill + Forcecage = 500d8 = 2250 damage on all failed saves.
Combined with all the other amazing stuff wizards get, I think it'd be a pretty awesome character to play. You'll have access to 8th level spells, including Clone (last job went poorly? You've got a backup body), Forcecage, Reverse Gravity, and countless other tricks. Also, if you decide to eschew Fighter and go Wizard 17/Rogue 3 (Assassin), your DPS will decrease, but you'll be able to make a new simulacrum for every job at no cost to you, as well as get all the truly absurd 9th-level stuff (Meteor Swarm it up!)
EDIT: I accidentally miscounted the number of bolts, and thought they did 2d8. They actually do 2d6. This lowers the damage slightly, but not by that much.
assassin3/valor bard 11/tempest cleric 6.
Pre-cast lighting arrow, level 9.
Attack: 10d8 maximized = 87 * 2 crit = 174 * .75 + 87*.25 = 152.25
8d8 = 36 * .5 + 18*.5 = 27
Bonus Action, lighting arrow, level 8.
Multi-Attack: 9d8 maximized = 72 * 2 = 144 * .75 + 72 *.25 = 126
7d8 = 31.5 * .5 + 15.75 * .5 = 23.625
+4d6 sneak attack
= 342.875
not a top tier, but not too shabby.
Outside your top 5 skills, what area few others you would take.
A few I might pick are:
Persuasion - For the more noble rogues.
Survival - More woods oriented campaigns.
Investigation - Trying to find secret passage in a room somone went through.
Slight of Hand - Helps for those who want the thief ablity too
Intimidation - When Perssuaion and Deception just wont work.
Also what do you think of getting Champion Archetype from fighter instead of battlemaster?
Oh, and as an alternative to the Sniper Wizard, if s/he takes 6 levels of Draconic Fire Sorcerer, and manages to get his/her Cha to 20 (not that hard with a variant human), that's +5 MORE to every roll. Granted, s/he won't get overchannel, but even so, with Action Surge, that's still a 8th-level (9 bolts) and 7th-level (8 bolts) slot, which, all told, work out to 17*[4*3.667+10]+17*7, resulting in just over 538 damage. No simulacrum and no insane top-tier spells, but still amazingly devastating.
I'd go Wizard 17/Assassin 3 myself, but if it all comes down to one turn, single-caster single-target damage, I don't think it gets better than Sorcerer 6/Wizard 9/Assassin 3/Fighter 2.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Gamester wrote:
How does Great Weapon Master feats interact with the auto crit achieve at the surprise round of an Assasin. Does it stack with the Action Surge as well?
Action Surge give you an additional action on top of the regular action and a possible bonus action. Assume you get a surprise round and hit (assuming one attack), if you had Great Weapon Master you get a bonus attack when crit. Then you apply Action Surge and hit again with a crit. It should end there since you can apply only one bonus action per turn.
Is this correct or what are your toughts.
Xochichuicatl wrote:
mellored wrote:
Xochichuicatl wrote:
Great thread with multiple different builds. I really like it. Bravo!
If you're considering paladin for smiting, why not go to Paladin 6 (saves) and then all sorcerer? This would allow you to use your spell slots on smites, and gives a ton of versatility to the build.
If I'm playing this character, I'm probably looking at fighter 11/ rogue 3/ I don't know. :p
Assuming I am willing to give a player a versatile weapon with finesse, how would Great Weapon Fighting stack up as a fighting style choice?
You got me. You're opening the door with allowing a house ruled weapon that isn't represented by anything close in the PHB.
What do you guys think of the following build for this class?
Half Orc Champion 12/Assassin 5/Warlock (Fey patron, Pact of the Blade) 3
It's the same build idea as presented in the beginning, with the Warlock in there for the disguise self ability and for having his rapier as a pact weapon. If ever caught during an assassination, he has the ability to turn invisible as well as dismiss his weapon (how could I have killed this man?). He also has disguise self to change his appearance.
Half Orc adds bonus damage to crits. Champion produces even more crits (for when you're not in your surprise round).
Matau99 wrote:
1eejit wrote:
FunkySpunk wrote:
[quote="GladiusLegis"]"All out" nova (Hunter's Mark + Divine Smite on each hit, burning 1 4th-level, 3 3rd-level, 1 2nd-level)
+11 vs. AC 20, w/ advantage = .84
Action Surge (2 attacks/action), 2 shortswords (1 bonus action attack) = 5 attacks
Per hit (auto-crit) damage:
5 DEX
+2d6 (7) shortsword crit
+2d8 (9) Improved Divine Smite crit
+2d6 (7) Hunter’s Mark crit
+2d8 (9) Superiority Dice crit (4 attacks only)
+8d8 (36) Divine Smite crits (averages to a 3rd-level Smite, taking the one 4th and one 2nd into account)
Once per round damage:
+4d6 (14) Sneak Attack crit
4*(.84*73) + (.84*64) + (1-.16^5)*14
= 313.04
/quote]
I was just wondering about this build and whether or not it would be better to sacrifice a level 3 smite in favour of Haste over Hunter's mark. This would give you 6 attacks but you'd lose the Hunter's mark crit and sacrifice 1D8 damage from lowering the 3rd level smite to a 2nd level one. I'm not a numbers guy but my instinct says haste over hunter's mark would do more damage.
Can any number bods out there prove/disprove my intuition?
Lindonius wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Lindonius wrote:
Hunter's mark lasts for an hour, and is a bonus action to cast.
Haste only lasts a minute, and takes an action to cast.
Coredump00 wrote:
The new Unearth Arcana just blew this thing wide open for melee burst.
Assassin 3/Battle Master 11/Order of the Immortal 6 (assumed progression gives 31 Psi Points)
Half-Orc using a great axe with Great Weapon Master feat for 3 attacks + 3 attacks from Action Surge + bonus action attack from GWM. Concentrating on Psionic Weapon for 87.75% to hit.
3d12 (19.5) great axe
10d10 (55) Lethal Strike x 6
2d10 (11) Superiority x 5
+5 STR and +1 Psionic Weapon
5*(.8775*91.5) + (.8775*80.5) + (.8775*25.5)
= 494.47125
Not to mention re-rolling 1s and 2s...
EDIT: Found the right to hit math.
You could throw in Paladin for Smites and bump it up a bit.
Assassin 3/Battle Master 3/Order of the Immortal 5/Paladin 9.
Half-Orc using a great axe with Great Weapon Master feat for 2 attacks + 2 attacks from Action Surge + bonus action attack from GWM. Concentrating on Psionic Weapon for 87.75% to hit.
3d12 (19.5) great axe
10d10 (55) Lethal Strike x 5
2d8 (9) Superiority x 4
8d8 (36) 3rd-level Smite x 2
6d8 (27) 2nd-level Smite x 3
+5 STR and +1 Psionic Weapon
2*(.8775*125.5) + 2*(.8775*116.5) + (.8775*107.5)
= 519.04125
Not to mention re-rolling 1s and 2s...
With an 18 DEX to start, would anyone recommend taking Alert with my second feat (already took Crossbow Expert as variant human feat at first level) or should I max out DEX at level 4? My thinking is that when Assassin goes live at level 5 I want to ensure I go first, and don't get surprised while I'm sneaking / scouting ahead of the party.
Anyone care to recommend options I'm open to it, thanks.
NativeNewporter wrote:
Wait….
A character is suprised the whole round?
So 4 or more attack in single turn are all made with surprise?
I know a GM that ruled that only first attack can be a surprise attack, after that (whatever it hits or miss) the enemy is no longer surprised cause they know you are shooting at them…
TrueManiek wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
NativeNewporter wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
But if he's going to be stuck waiting that long, maxing DEX now is even more valuable because it literally affects everything the character wants to do. AC, initiative, damage, attack rolls, dex skills, etc.. While alert, because his DM doesn't apparently use surprise against the party that often, is less valuable. Especially on a build that doesn't main or even really use wisdom as a secondary. Just seems like a waste to take Alert tbh.
Noctaem wrote:
So how does splashing a level of the new Ranger affect the true Assassin? Anyone wanna do the math?
Noctaem wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Hey, new MultiClassing idea. Bard 2.
Bard 2 means you are adding your proficiency (half anyway) to your Dex Ability Check for Initiative.
Rogue 11 Reliable Talent would mean you can never roll less than 10 on the D20. Rogue11/Bard2 means an init roll range of 17-27
You probably want Fighter levels first.... so more likely picking up Bard much later, but still..... (Barbs can do this also, but at level 7, much harder to get to.)
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Thus it is reasonable to assume that surprise ends when a surprised creature has had their turn. Any earlier doesn't make sense (if it's ended why can't they take reactions?), and any later doesn't either (so they're surprised but it doesn't do anything?).
Yunru wrote:
The way I run it is version 1 below, the way you run it is version 2:-
Version 1 (for ends on noticing)
Applied when "not noticing a threat" and ended upon "noticing any threat". Upon first being applied, surprise N launches an effect that delays actions and reactions until the end of a combatant's first turn. Until it ends, it acts as a handshake for other effects. For avoidance of doubt, ending version 1 of surprise does not end the delay-effect even if it comes sooner.
Version 2 (for ends with its first-turn effects)
Applied when "not noticing a threat" and runs until the end of a combatant's first turn. While active, version 2 of surprise prevents actions and reactions and acts as a handshake for other effects.
Conceptually, the game assumes that participants in combat are constantly on the lookout for danger. There are no rules for facing because is assumed that combatants are constantly looking around to be able to respond to the events around them.
So the surprise mechanic is the crunch expression of the fluff that surprised creatures don't realise that they are in combat, are not constantly looking out for danger, and are just living their lives, walking around, eating snacks, reading books, whatever. The consequences of this lack of awareness of any threat include that they are slow out of the blocks, even when they finally notice a threat. It is also the basis for the concept of the Assassin's auto-crit: it works because the target is unaware, not looking round for danger, and still eating snacks and reading books, totally oblivious to danger and therefore not throwing themselves to one side at the last minute and not making themselves a difficult target, which they do start to do as soon as they realise that they are under attack!
Example:- A wizard is engrossed in his books, totally oblivious to the assassin and his bow and poisoned arrow. The assassin draws the bowstring while trying to remain as quiet as possible, and the wizard doesn't see or hear him. The wizard is defenceless; the perfect Assassination target.
In both versions, because the assassin beat the wizard in every contested Perception/Stealth roll, the wizard starts combat 'surprised'. Why? Because he doesn't notice a threat.
Initiative is rolled, measuring reaction speed not 'awareness of a threat'. The wizard has a higher initiative result than the assassin. In both versions, the wizard cannot act/react until after his first turn.
In version 1, the fact that the wizard has faster reactions has no impact on whether or not he knows that there is anything to react to. The assassin looses the arrow, and if it hits it will auto-crit. Why? Because the wizard is defenceless, oblivious to danger, still engrossed in his book.
In version 2, after the initiative count goes past the wizard's initiative total....nothing at all is different about the situation, the wizard is still oblivious, still engrossed in his book, but somehow he is as hard a target as a fully-aware combatant, and immune to auto-crits from Assassinate. Why? He still doesn't know about the still hidden assassin, so what information prompts him to begin reacting to something he doesn't even know about?
Version 2 makes the oblivious wizard somehow no longer oblivious despite not detecting the assassin in any way, because an ability check totally unrelated to awareness was used to end 'surprised'. It makes as much sense as ending surprised if you roll well on a Religion check.
ArialBlack wrote:
And yet in your version of surprise, the Assassin can't drop down from above right on the stupid Wizard's desk and smile in his bearded face as he plunges a dagger into the mage's heart while he's trying to recover from the shock of the sudden attack.
Nothing a threat and being able to react to that threat to defend yourself are two completely different things. You say once they notice a threat, they begin to defend themselves and are no longer surprised. I'd ask how they can they do that if they can't even properly act or react?
ArialBlack wrote:
Which build path would you suggest for a character that probably won't hit level 20 and is playing a shorter campaign?
Action Surge and Assassinate are the keystones.
Yunru wrote:
Aladornal wrote: