Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Corran21 Dec 26, 2014 15:32:00	So, I was toying around the idea of a character that is good at disguising himself. While looking for the tools that would make this viable, I noticed that there was a serious lack of synergy.   I can use the skill deception when trying to pull off a disguise according to the description of the deception skill (PHB page 178).   Having proficiency with the disguise kit lets me add my proficiency bonus to any ability checks related with passing off with my disguise (PHB page 154). Now, as I said, the ability check I would use in this occassion is deception, so If I am already trained in it, would I use my proficiency bonus a second time because of having proficiency with the disguise kit? What if I had used the rogue's expertise on deception? Would that allow me to add my proficiency bonus 3 times? If so, then that is some nice numbers right there.   Finally, the disguise self spell allows me to take any form I want (within certain limits of course), but then, I get to roll nothing, rather my foes roll investigation checks against my spell DC. That is for sure a lack of synergy. I would expect that spell to allow me an advantage, or at least a flat bonus, on my deception checks. But it seems, that it is either using deception or letting my enemies roll invesigation checks against my spell DC. Two completelly different ways of going about it then, without having a shred of synergy....   I strongly feel all these options should help one another (at least that's what I feel they should do), but maybe it isn't so due to not messing up with bounded accuracy... Any thoughts on this one?
#2 pukunui Dec 26, 2014 15:45:57	You can only ever add your proficiency bonus to a check once, unless it specifically says otherwise (eg. Expertise, dwarven Stonecunning, etc).   I personally would rule that you'd still need some kind of materials in order to use Deception to physically disguise yourself; however, the idea is that if you're proficient with the Disguise Kit, you can use it to make yourself a disguise without needing to be proficient in the Deception skill. It's an either/or thing. It doesn't stack.   The issue with disguise self is that it is purely an illusion. If a guard comes up to frisk you, he's automatically going to find that out because what he feels won't match up to what he sees.   I don't think there needs to be any synergy here. Bounded accuracy is part of it - you want to avoid too many stacking bonuses. It's also an attempt to avoid letting spellcasters step on the toes of the non-spellcasters too much, like they could in some prior editions. For instance, knock is good for when you don't have a rogue, but a rogue is still preferable since knock makes a really loud noise.
#3 Corran21 Dec 26, 2014 16:15:27	pukunui wrote:
#4 pukunui Dec 26, 2014 16:18:49	If you're the DM, you could always rule that you can't use Deception to make a disguise, just like you can't use it to make a forgery. Deception would still be useful for lying.
#5 iserith Dec 26, 2014 17:28:37	Corran21 wrote:
#6 tdaelin Dec 27, 2014 21:38:29	There are two parts to a successful disguise, creating the costume or props that fit the false character and the actual performance needed to make that character believable.   The Disguise Kit tool proficiency doesn't help you pass off your disguise, just pull one together.  Specifically, it lets you "add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to create a visual disguise." (PHB 154.) It likely doesn't matter how convincing your acting is, no one is going to accept you as a fabulously rich member of the nobility if you're dressed like a dirt-grubbing peasant. The DC to pull that off would be nigh impossible, no matter how high you roll your Deception check - you still need a disguise to make it work. Not only is the Disguise Kit's benefit not involved with your Deception check, it doesn't even involve your Charisma.  The act of pulling together a disguise is an Intelligence check (PHB 178.)  Characters proficient with the Disguise Kit would add their proficiency bonus to an Intelligence roll in order to determine if they've created a believable disguise.  This is the only way in which the Disguise Kit proficiency is applied, and would be used as an opposing roll against a suspicious character's Investigation check. The Disguise Self spell is basically a shortcut around the physical disguise process, eliminating much of the need to pull together a wardrobe and props. The one caveat is that it doesn't work with physical interactions, so an illusory hat would be revealed if you needed to put it on a hat rack, etc. If you only need to modify your basic physical appearance, though, like skin tone, facial features or hair color, it should work without complication. Regardless of whether you've built a physical disguise using a Disguise Kit and requisite Intelligence check or if you're using the Disguise Self spell, you'd still need to make Deception checks to convince people that you're legit.  A flawless diguise won't convince anyone you're really the king if you act like a fool or talk like a gutter rat, etc. One benefit of the Disguise Kit proficiency is that you can use it on your entire party.  If you need to disguise your group as a cadre of royal guards, an Intelligence check with Disguise Kit contributing your proficiency bonus takes care of that. It could fall apart if Gorgo, your 8 charisma barbarian buddy, has to act the role, but if you take the lead with your Deception checks to play a guard captain and the others just follow along, you're in business.