Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 PhyrexianKitsune Dec 16, 2014 12:15:24	As the title says. I like the idea of a dual-blade-using gish character, but don't like the idea of using an eldritch knight to do that since I want magic right from level 1. Sadly post playtest Paladins and war clerics do not play nice with dual-weilders, so I was wondering if the Valor Bard works well with them. I want to know whether or not the extra attack and 'cast + attack" feature they get allow them to get their attacks off or if they, just like the paladin and war cleric, really work best with high str and a 2-hander? If it's a case of the latter, would a Lore bard still make an "ok" spellsword if dual-weilding?(either way they'd likely be less damaging then a valor bard, but could they still be -passable- at melee combat in addition to being the white mage?) Any advice on this would be great!
#2 mellored Dec 16, 2014 13:21:50	Valor works best with a shield or 2-hander.  Since cast+attack is only 1 attack with 1 weapon. But yes, dual weapon valor is doable.  If not optimal.     Dual wielding clerics arn't actually that bad.  Since 2 attacks means an extra chance at landing divine strike.  They also can cast with holysymbols and don't need a free hand.  Not optimal, but better then a bard. Life cleric can more readily ignore Wis, and is more stat neutral. Trickster can give you advantage on all your attacks. Death can give you a nasty nova if you land both attacks. Avoid war, it's just not good.   Just put up bless and go to town.  Then cast your heal spells after the battle.
#3 Mephi1234 Dec 16, 2014 13:15:27	Two weapon fighting requires your bonus action, as does the cast + attack feature.   And the Bardic Inspiration dice.   And Healing Word.    Plus, no Two Weapon Fighting Style, meaning your off hand attack would be dealing 1 to 6 damage - its really a bummer when you only deal 1 point of damage with your attack.      As well, keep in mind that, if you want to go gish, you need to have a free hand to hold an implement or make somantic gestures for a lot of spells.   You need WarCaster to make a TWF gish, and even then, no spells with material components.    This doesn't mean that high strength valor bards are better - there's some really good dex-based Valor bards.     That said, its still possible to run them.    Just keep in mind what you need to do to pull it off.       Lore bards should not be using weapons - they're focused on being dedicated spellcasters instead of gishes - a light cleric instead of war cleric, for comparison.
#4 Mephi1234 Dec 16, 2014 13:16:56	mellored wrote:
#5 mellored Dec 16, 2014 13:22:45	Mephi1234 wrote:
#6 PhyrexianKitsune Dec 16, 2014 13:54:30	I didn't know that non-war clerics can even be considered "gishes" though I suppose trickery and death are not terrible domains for a gish even if they are more focused on casting then fighting in the long run. However, trickery basicly demands you go vairent human and take the weapon master feat at level 1, since it gets no good finess weapon profiencies (By default all the cleric gets with finess is daggers.) while death freely gets short-sword acssess, making it the optimal domain here. Also, why don't clerics need a free hand to cast, just curious? I thought their spells have somatic components just like everybody elses' or are you just not casting while weilding your weapons and swapping between 'caster mode" and "melee mode" rather then having both of them going at once?   As for lore bards, I get what your saying about making them "dedicated casters" but do they really have enough spells per-day to be "dedicated casters"? I mean, without an arcane recovery type class feature, it seems like a bard would run out of casts per-day quickly if they pretend to be a wizard, so what would a lore bard be doing when he runs out of spells per-day? spamming vicious mockery and minor illusion? Admitedly playing the necro-bard idea I posted a thread about kinda remediates this issue by picking up animate dead at level 6 and letting their undead contribute to melee on their behalf, but for a vannella lore bard, how are you being a "dedicated caster" with the ammount of spells per-day you get?   As for dex-based valor bards in general, would the "best" route would be to forgo dual-weilding and go `1-handed with a rapier and possibly a shield? Less damage then the 2-hander str bard or a dual-weilder, but more defensive and still able to freely cast w/o warcaster when need be and have acssess to the all-important bonus action?
#7 mellored Dec 16, 2014 13:55:58	Holy symbols can be imbuned on stuff, like a shield or dagger (which is perfectly fitting for a death domain). and yes, lore bards are full casters. They just get iinspiration dice as one of their "spells".
#8 PhyrexianKitsune Dec 16, 2014 14:11:21	That makes some sense I suppose. Anyway, as for the dex-based valor bard would the best route be to forget dual-weild and just go with a rapier & shield or dose the power of the strength build just really just make a dex-focus pointless for a valor bard?   Also, for my aformentioned necro lore bard idea, do I really even need 16 dex or can I dump dex down to 14 to put more points into other stats? I'd be taking vairent human for the magic initiate feat at level 1 to grab chill touch as a cantrip from the sorc list(and thus with cha as the atk and save stat for SAD) among other spells, so I'd actually have a solid non-dex-based damaging(Because, lets face it, you spam vicious mockery for the debuff effect, the damage is rather paltry and really just a nice bonus to have rather then something you can count on.) ranged attack, so I don't need to be as dependent on the crossbow for my "basic attack"
#9 mellored Dec 16, 2014 14:13:26	Rapier and shield is generally superior to a longsword for anyone but the fighter and barbarian. 14 For a lore bard is fine, just don't run up front. and I'm going to retract my trickster suggestion, too much compition for your bonus action.
#10 PhyrexianKitsune Dec 16, 2014 14:20:21	Ok, good to know the dex valor bard can still "work out" even if not in the way I originally thought. As for the lore necro idea, would you suggest mage armor or false life for my 1/day sorc spell from magic initiate? Mage armor is likely the more "optimal" choice since it's surpasses all light armors for sheer AC, but I really like the fluff of this character having false life instead, and the temp HP is always a nice "fallback" to have so I can save my actual healing for the other party members. I mean, at most, mage armor will get me 1 extra AC over studded leather whereas false life can give me a hefty chunk of HP even if I can't ever "upgrade" it. So False Life is certainly appealing from a fluff and crunch standpoint, but is mage armor just THAT much better due to not having any level-dependent vairables?
#11 mellored Dec 16, 2014 14:41:34	IMO lore has better uses for a level 1 slot then mage armor. Like dissonant whispers, which even fits thematicly even if it's not a necro school.
#12 PhyrexianKitsune Dec 16, 2014 15:00:35	Dissonant Whispers is a bard spell, though, which means I just pick it up normally with my spells known. I was specificly asking which level 1 spell I should take with the magic intiate feat, which must be a level 1 spell from the sorcerer list. This spell is not cast using my bard spell slots but rather is castable 1/day and refreshes with a long rest. it's basicly a free extra spell slot that can only be used to cast one spell that I can't cast with my normal spell slots. However, the cost for this is that the sorc spell in question is always cast at the lowist possible level, which is 1. The feat also gives you two cantrips, one of which will be chill touch and the other of which will be something generally useful...again, both MUST be from the sorc list so I can keep cha as my casting stat for them.(the magic initiate spells use the casting stat of the class of the list you get them from, so taking wizard list spells would make them keyed off int and not cha, which is why I need to take these spells from the sorc list to keep myself SAD), the cantrips, unlike the level 1 spell, do scale with level and like your in-class cantrips are spamable.   Thats why I was asking about mage armor vs. false life. I would NOT be using magical secrects to pick one of those up, but rather the magic initaite feat which I am PRIMARILY taking for both chill touch acssess at Lv. 1 and the added versatility of having 4 cantrips instead of 2.   So, seeing that, is the extra 1 AC  and lack of losses from being perma Lv1 from mage armor really worth it or can I freely take False Life for the fitting fluff and extra HP with that feat instead? Even further, are their "better" level 1 sorcerer spells I can take that are not heavily-dependent on what level they are cast at that would be useful?
#13 mellored Dec 16, 2014 16:11:27	PhyrexianKitsune wrote:
#14 PhyrexianKitsune Dec 16, 2014 17:10:44	Alright, good to know. Also, the spells don't have completing slots. As stated, the single sorc spell I get from the feat dosen't take up a slot to cast it, instead you can cast it 1/long rest without using any of your spell slots. As stated, it's essentually a free spell you can cast 1/day IN ADDITION to your slots, not using them. So essentually I have THREE spells per-day instead of the standard 2 at level 1 thanks to the feat, which IMO is one of the reasons to take it along with the extra cantrips.
(Reply to #14) kimura121	I have a level 3 human valor bard and I've been struggling with these same issues. I really wanted to take the magic intiate feat for firebolt and shocking grasp(free disengage) to have well rounded attack options. I thought about mage armor but shield is always useful and you will get medium armor at 3rd if you go valor anyways. To be honest "alert" was my other choice because going first and casting sleep wins battles. In the end I had to stay with the "healer" feat as I'm playing this guy in Adventure League and in the two games I played in, I was the only healer. In the second game I healed almost 100 hp with the feat over the course of 5 hours.   At this point(3rd) I think I'm switching from a rapier to a longbow and stay in the back ranks but a hand crossbow and a shield would be good too. I'll still have some melee weapons handy if I need it. I started with 16 cha 16 dex and I think my spells are more important than my bow shots so charisma will get maxed first. Then probably resliant con so I can hit 14 con and boost my concentration checks. After that, maybe alert, dex boosts or sharpshooter to go with swift quiver at level 10.
#16 kimura121 Dec 17, 2014 16:21:47	The other option for the magic iniative feat would be to grab eldritch blast and hex along with one other cantrip. You could attack with 2 short swords and hex for decent damage but thats only going to last an hour once per day. Later you could grab Hex with magical secrets if you wanted but there are probably better choices. Like others have said the bard has better uses for his bonus action that TWF but I don't blame you.... it looks cool. Maybe go str and use a polearm ?
#17 Ashrym Dec 17, 2014 21:42:01	CHA / DEX is a good mix for a bard and I like it for a lore bard because of the poor armor. TWF is a harder sell, though. It's not a problem with the bonus action for bards because caster or not, they aren't casting spells every round even at high levels. It's harder to sell on a valor bard with better weapon options. A Lore bard does more damage TWF than with vicious mockery, even at high levels, and most casters are better off TWF at low levels. If you are picking up better damage cantrips you are still in good shape as long as you have 2 great magical weapons to use on a lore bard. You might avoid spells with a bonus action casting time, take war caster feat, and bear in mind you are still on the lower side of damage.