Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Angel7 Sep 08, 2014 14:17:42	I've just finished the basic framework for my Paladin and wanted to ask for some build advice. Here's my character so far as well as a few inquiries. Assistance/suggestions much appreciated.   Paladin (Human Variant) - Will be going with Oath of Devotion. - Will be going with Dueling Fighting Style (longsword and shield) Str 16, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16  (after adding a point to Str and Cha) Saving Throws -  prof in Wis and Cha Skills - Athletics, Intimidation, and Perception(for human variant choice) Background - Spy (skill prof in Deception and Stealth)   Feat - one of the following 1) Mounted Combat - very cool feat where you're not as afraid of your horse dying as with prior editions.  2) Sentinel - my second favorite as it has a lot of various uses for keeping the enemy close, and preventing run away attempts.   Since there are so many benefits of going with a Dex based Paladin, I was wondering if this character concept could be reworked to use Dex for hit and damage. Switching STR with DEX isn't an issue, but it sounds like I'd be having to use a Rapier with a Shield according to RAW, rather than a longsword and this just seems odd. Then again, there are probably a lot of players that might just go this route in order to satisfy the light/finesse weapon requirement. For me, the rapier/shield or scimitar/shield combo isn't something I want to go with. So, my question is... What if you used a flail?  (the type with a long chain and a studded ball on the end for bludgeoning damage) Since the flail has no listed properties one way or the other, could you make a Dex based, Dueling Paladin with flail and board rather than sword and board?  Or is this reaching, as it doesn't specifically list a flail as a light or finesse weapon? Advice on this question and on my build in progress most welcome.
#2 Angel7 Sep 08, 2014 14:19:45	By the way, Straladin sounds like your paladin is mounting something and Dexadin sounds like cold medication.  Terms like neo-vancian and vancian-flex are cool. These ones...not so much..
#3 HeirRaktus Sep 08, 2014 14:20:20	Do you plan to MC at any point? If so, thats a strong reason to Straladin.
#4 Angel7 Sep 08, 2014 14:30:03	Nope.. Just straight up Paladin.  It just seems like there are more benefits using Dex for attack/damage then using Str. -  higher initiative - better Dex based skill values  - there is more skills that use Dex, as opposed to STR - better AC, etc.
#5 Angel7 Sep 08, 2014 17:01:24	I just realized that even though the flail has no light or finesse descriptor, it's listed as a 2lb weapon just like the rapier and shortsword. Would this justify it's use for a DEX paladin? ie: being able to use DEX for attacks/damage with a flail?
#6 dysaber Sep 08, 2014 18:13:51	Flail cannot be used with Dex, only Finesse weapons can use Dex for attack and damage.  The weight of the weapon is of no importance when determining Str or Dex.
#7 Macv12 Sep 08, 2014 19:02:30	There's no problem with using a rapier and claiming that it's anything else in the world. Weapons are only packages of numbers. Notice that the Monk includes a bunch of suggestions for reskinning weapons, like saying the club is nunchaku, etc. Just use the rapier "archetype" weapon, and say it's a flail, or whatever else that would reasonably use DEX for damage.
#8 knid Sep 08, 2014 19:43:48	I was thinking the same thing with a character I'm planning to use.  At first I thought I'd lose something by going dex rather than str.  Now it looks as if prefering dex will be better considering everything seems to even out.   As a side question, would the dex fighter be about the same in terms of abilities as the dex paladin?
#9 dysaber Sep 08, 2014 20:43:21	A dex fighter has more ability score increases, so a fighter can have more feats or higher ability scores if they choose.  Paladin gets spells though, lay on hands, better saving throws eventually.
#10 Angel7 Sep 08, 2014 22:34:28	Although the DEX paladin certainly has it's benefits, especially for stealth and those with the Spy background (variant Criminal), I think I'm going to stick with my STR paladin build. Going this route I can still have an effective Dueling Sword&Board and Flail&Board (to cover both slashing and bludgeoning) paladin, as well proficiency with Stealth and Deception.  Best of all, I won't feel like I'm trying to make a forced fit, even though I'm sure a case could be made for a finessable flail. I also don't have to imagine a group of knights running around with shields and rapiers like some Monte Python skit.  I think this is one of those cases where I'm going to choose a little less optimization for the sake of character concept and better alignment with the Rules as Intended rather than Rules as Written.
#11 AtomicPope Sep 09, 2014 0:37:13	If you're going with Mounted Combat you should go Straladin. Lance does 1D12 damage, Reach, and is one-handed while Mounted and all attacks have advantage if your target is smaller than your mount, but it's a Heavy weapon (Str only).  The Lance is amazing and works with the Dueling Style.  If you're looking to min-max then go Halforc for the Savage Crit. (roll an extra weapon die on a crit).  Also, they get +2 Str and some other goodies but no Human Variant feat.  Being able to start with Mounted Combat is amazing and allows to your wreck face immediately.  The Lance is usable with LOTS of feats and works moderately well on foot. The Starter Set module involves the PC's deliverying goods upon request and you're loaned horses and a wagon so you could start with a mount.  I'd like to see the look on your DM's face when you Crit a Goblin and roll 3D12+Str for damage and throw in a Smite for another 4D8 radiant damage (with a 16 Str that's 40.5 points of damage on average).  Good times!
(Reply to #4) Lord_Phobetor	Angel7 wrote:
#13 Ravellion Sep 09, 2014 6:59:31	Note that when using the variant encumbrance rules, you would definitely lose speed when wearing the heavier armors without sufficient STR
#14 mellored Sep 09, 2014 7:55:22	Dex: Inititive, better saves   Str: Higher damage, higher AC.  (or faster, if you wear plate without Str).   You can also consider 2-handed with Str.  Doing ALOT more damage, with about the same AC as Dex + Shield.
#15 Angel7 Sep 09, 2014 9:35:23	I'm just starting to see more of the benefits of the traditional STR based paladin, that were not initially apparent to me when looking at the pros of the DEX based variety. Thanks for pointing those out, especially the fact that there is little AC divide between both builds.     Going with a Straladin, it definitely makes my feat selection more focused and I'm really torn between Mounted Combat and Sentinel as both offer a variety of fantastic benefits for this class. The classic knight and his horse may be too much to resist as riding horseback with a lance would be a great horde breaker.  No baby size flail now either. With a 16 STR, I may just use a snirvneblin in full plate as the flail head, blessed with disruption property. Those poor undead won't see that coming.... (just joking about the disruption part)