Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RKVM Apr 05, 2015 6:44:16	As a Life Cleric wielding a mace and shield, even with a +3 mace and 20 STR, is it ever worth it to melee instead of SF?   Divine Strike: 1d6+2d8+8 Sacred Flame: 4d8   The minimum damage is higher but even in the best possible scenario of maxed STR and +3 weapon you can never match SF's max damage.   Your mace requires you to be in melee, SF can be cast in melee with no penalty or up to 30 feet away.   If you take War Caster you can cast SF as an OA for 4d8, or you can hit with your mace for 1d6+8.   SF progresses faster than DS, 2d8 at level 5 while your mace is still only 1d6+STR.   Even a War/Tempest Cleric wielding a Greatsword only does a potential d6 damage more which barely pulls ahead of SF max but still only once on your turn and never on OAs or War's bonus attacks.   All of this also requires maxing STR or DEX, meaning less ASIs on Feats or maxing WIS/CON, and a +3 magic weapon that you are in no way guaranteed of ever getting.
#2 Macv12 Apr 05, 2015 6:57:55	Average damage of mace: 1d6 weapon + 2d8 Divine Strike + 5 STR = 3.5 + 9 + 5 = 17.5 per hit   Average damage of Sacred Flame: 4d8 = 18 per hit   Sure, peak damage is higher on SF, but average damage is the same. With a weapon, you can add extra goodies, like Extra Attack, Fighting Style, enchantments, etc. If you use a shortbow instead of a mace, you can add Sharpshooter.   All this means that Sacred Flame is a viable option, not that Divine Strike is a trap. I also don't think it even can be a "trap," since you don't choose it instead of something else, it's a class feature that you must acquire as you advance as a Life cleric.
#3 RKVM Apr 05, 2015 7:36:49	Macv12 wrote:
#4 FarBeyondC Apr 05, 2015 9:17:54	Several things to note:   Divine Strike works with any type of weapon, not just melee weapons. Sacred Flame requires a save. Sacred Flame is locked to exactly one type of damage. Weapon attacks can be any one of at least three. There are way more readily accessible ways to improve weapon attacks than there are for improving cantrips in general, much less Sacred Flame, available to the Cleric.
#5 QwertyAzerty Apr 05, 2015 10:03:42	even if somehow your sacred flame would deal 6d8 damage, if you try to do it on anyone with a decent dex save (monk, ranger, rogue etc...) cahcne are you'll do 0 damage, while AC is alway reachable.   then like shown Macv12, they do average same damage (so you prefer better minimum or better maximum?, statisticaly speaking they both deal the same damage on the long run)   Yes I kind of agree that bringing your strenght to 20 on a cleric just to hit with divine strike, it might be a trap, BUT THE TRAP IS BRINGNING YOUR STRENGHT TO 20, not receiving divine strike.   Then why can't you add divine strike damage to your attack or opportunity. The description says : ONCE PER TURN, 95% of the time, Attack of opportunity will be taking during someone else turn, so just like the rogue can sneak attack on an attack of opportunity, you can divine strike during that attack of oportunity.   Then even if you keep your strenght to 15 (to carry that heavy armor) you still deal weapon damage (1d8 with a warhammer) +divine strike (1d8 or 2d8 at level 14)+2. which is still decent damage without any investment, with no ASI invested. dip one drid level to get shillelagh and there you go, you can attack with a staff or a club using your Wisdom.
#6 mellored Apr 05, 2015 10:47:51	sacred flame is usually better because you don't need Str, or Dex (as mentioned, divine strike it works with any weapon including bows for much more then 30' range) but then, many cleric spells don't need Wis, like bless, revivify, or regeneration. even cure wounds isn't too dependant on it. your also looking at very high levels, and not incliding accuracy and crits. paticulaly if you cast bless on yourself, or get advantage, or archery style. but overall, life clerics have the worst damage option. they get other stuff. edit: and higher min damage is generally better then higher max, as you are less likely to "waste" damage on overkill, though it depends on the HP of the target.
#7 FrogReaver Apr 05, 2015 10:51:54	Use polearm master with your cleric and see how much better it looks.
#8 SterlingRat Apr 05, 2015 11:01:25	Okay... so the "trap" you are referring to isn't Divine Strike, it's using ASI to boost Str or Dex as a cleric? Okay, I can definitely see that, but for a full caster to spend ASI on something that isn't a feat, Con or the Casting Attribute could be considered a "trap". Divine Strike or not...
(Reply to #8) FrogReaver	SterlingRat wrote:
#10 FrogReaver Apr 05, 2015 11:04:39	A cleric would make a good shield master class... for the bonus action prone chance.  Which does require an attack action.
#11 SterlingRat Apr 05, 2015 12:01:52	Cleric bonus action is Spiritual Weapon... does Divine Strike get applied if you hit with the conjured weapon? I'm not sure.
#12 GladiusLegis Apr 05, 2015 12:13:58	SterlingRat wrote:
#13 SterlingRat Apr 05, 2015 12:33:56	Spiritual Weapon is bonus action cast and lasts for a bit without being concentration, I think (AFB). So what if I cast a spell with my action and hit someone on my bonus action with the spiritual weapon I summoned last turn? Do I include Divine Strike damage if I hit?
#14 GladiusLegis Apr 05, 2015 14:49:13	No, because Spiritual Weapon is a melee spell attack, not a weapon attack. Divine Strike only applies specifically to weapon attacks.
#15 SterlingRat Apr 05, 2015 15:07:07	yep, just got to my book and was about to post that. Oh well, it would have been cool and might have made Divine Strike more useful.
#16 SpedGuy Apr 05, 2015 15:11:08	Picking up Shillelagh with an ASI helps make Divine Strike more viable without increasing demands on MAD; especially as a dwarf who can abandon both comfortably
#17 RKVM Apr 06, 2015 0:57:29	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#18 Macv12 Apr 06, 2015 1:20:56	Life cleric gives you heavy armor, so you're already encouraged to stay in melee and have decent strength. Your path features totally ignore your WIS score, and you can go with a spell selection that minimally uses WIS, or only needs a half-decent score. From level 6, your ability to heal yourself whenever you heal someone else is wasted if you're not absorbing some of those hits for the party, which encourages you to be in melee instead of in the back lines.   Altogether, Life clerics do great as melee fighters, and improving that further with Divine Strike makes perfect sense. Sacred Flame is decent with almost no investment, but if you're willing to spend the resources, attacking with a weapon has a much higher optimization ceiling. And you'll probably get more mileage out of an extra d8 or two on your turn than adding your WIS modifier to a cantrip (you'd have to take War Caster and make an OA every turn to equal that extra damage). I really don't see how this is a problem.
#19 Kentus Apr 06, 2015 5:11:22	In the end, it depends on your campaign and your DM. How do you spend most of your spells? If the answer is healing, then you won't need to actually do something about your magical strength. How much do you face melee? If you do a lot (like by being the second tank), then you should consider to somehow increase your melee potential, somehow. Normally, I would suggest to any cleric to use the ASI to somehow increase the survivability, since if you go down, the party might follow quickly.   And in terms of melee and sacred flame: Since you have the divine strike feature, you should use the advantage of it to the fullest: That you can decide, if a cantrip would be more benefical then a weapon attack. With attack rolls, you can gain advantage and there are several ways to boost your weapon attacks, while a cantrip is somewhat static. Depending on your optional rules (like flanking) cantrips might still be inferior. And of course there are magic weapons out there, which can be pretty useful at times (like Lightbringer of Mines of Phandelver, which does additional radiant damage to undead). Divine Strike is not a trap, but a way to ensure that some cleric builds won't depend on cantrips for damage reasons alone, instead of going into melee once in a while. A cleric with Divine Strike is able to rely on both without much penalty. So take a look what is more beneficial at the time and choose your action wisely. ;)
#20 Jamwes Apr 06, 2015 13:35:36	Not a trap. If you ask me, Divine Strike just makes your weapon attacks still viable even if you never up your Str/Dex beyond a +2 or +3. There are times you just need to thump something instead of doing Dex save radiant damage. Which one is best really depends on what level you are. In practice, you should be switching between the two for whichever is the best for that turn based on enemy and positioning and HP and what not.   I'm playing a Tempest Cleric with a 16 Dex. I never plan on bumping my Dex. There is no reason to. Even with only a 16 Dex, for more levels the Rapier is the better choice on average. The levels the Sacred Flame is better damage is because it has one extra die while the weapon has static damage that could be viewed as around an "average" die roll. At best we're only talking about a couple of damage points, so it doesn't really matter. Divine Strike keeps weapons viable and being able to switch between the two each turn is a huge combat advantage. Personally, I prefer to just attack from range with Sacred Flame (even when it does less damage) because I don't like getting hurt, but when the main line fighters get banged up you better believe I'm up in melee to suck up some of those attacks.   Level 1-4: Rapier Rapier: 1d8+3 = 7.5 average Sacred Flame: 1d8 = 4.5 average   Level 5-7: Sacred Flame R: 1d8+3 = 7.5 SF: 2d8 = 9   Level 8-10: Rapier R: 2d8+3 = 12 SF: 2d8 = 9   Level 11-13: Sacred Flame R: 2d8+3 = 12 SF: 3d8 = 13.5   Level 14-16: Rapier R: 3d8+3 = 16.5 SF: 3d8 = 13.5   Level 17-20: Sacred Flame R: 3d8+3 = 16.5 SF: 4d8 = 18
#21 Coredump00 Apr 06, 2015 14:10:22	Melee attacks also:   Benefit from Crits Benefit from Bless, etc Benefit from Advantage Benefit from Crusaders mantle, or Hunter's mark, etc Magic weapons add to attack as well as damage Weapons can have additional magic damage (ie flametongue etc) More consistent damage output     Plus you still need to cause the damage.  If we take your example from earlier, and assume a conservative +5 Dex save, that would require a 22 AC to have the same 'chance to cause damage'   The other issue, is that by that level, many of the targets will have fire or BSP resistance/immunity.... .or both.
#22 Coredump00 Apr 06, 2015 14:10:59	Melee attacks also:   Benefit from Crits Benefit from Bless, etc Benefit from Advantage Benefit from Crusaders mantle, or Hunter's mark, etc Magic weapons add to attack as well as damage Weapons can have additional magic damage (ie flametongue etc) More consistent damage output     Plus you still need to cause the damage.  If we take your example from earlier, and assume a conservative +5 Dex save, that would require a 22 AC to have the same 'chance to cause damage'   The other issue, is that by that level, many of the targets will have fire or BSP resistance/immunity.... .or both.
#23 Mephi1234 Apr 06, 2015 17:45:18	"Its a trap!"      Now, first, I really have to ask.   What are you doing?   If your focus is making weapon attacks, then we should be talking about the War Cleric, with several methods of boosting both number of attacks and attack accuracy.   So, in that case, Divine Strike is superior than Sacred Flame.     Lets say we have an elven bow cleric of the Tempest Domain.   You can use your Channel Divinity to maximize the damage from a Divine Strike; that's not something we'd get from Sacred Flame.   In the Nature Domain?   You get the druid cantrip for attacking with a club with WIS, making the complaint about strength moot.   Light Domain is designed for use of Sacred Flame, as is Knowledge, and no Divine Strike, so they don't count.   Death Domain has a Channel Divinity option for increasing melee damage.    Trickery's illusion gives advantages to Divine Strike attacks, but not Sacred Flame.     That leaves Life where one option isn't outright better than the other at first blush.    The other seven Domains clearly give advantages one way or the other to one of the two options.        When we talk about optimizing or trap options, we have to look at things over levels.   For now, assume that both Divine Strike and Sacred Flame have an equal chance of hitting.     Lets look at damage output, assuming +3 in both DEX/STR or +3 WIS.  At level 1, a mace is better than sacred flame, by virtue of adding your STR/DEX to the attack.  By level 5, without help, we're looking at Sacred Flame winning with the mace.  1d6+3 (6.5) versus 2d8 (9) with a mace; an elf using a bow or dwarf with an axe, however? Bump that average damage for Divine Strike up by 1 or 2.    Use Bless?  Bump up average damage from the accuracy boost.   Use a magical +X weapon?  Bump it up.  Appropriate feats, including Savage Attacker?  Bump it up.  Party can arrange for advantage on attacks easily?  Bump it up.  Sacred Flame never recieves a damage boost; it doesn't happen with magic in 5e, and inflicting disadvantage on saves isn't as easy as it is to get advatnage on attacks.      At level 8, Divine Strike pulls ahead.   1d6+1d8+3+(random boosts) for an average of 11+(random boosts) damage, versus 9.   At 11, swap again (assuming the random boosts to Divine Strike aren't matching or exceeding).  Then swap at 14, then swap at 17.      All this means that we're looking at one Domain out of eight where the attacks are debatable in terms of damage.   Can you argue that Sacred Flame is a better option than Divine Strike for the Life Cleric?   Yes.   Given that the average damage flips, depending on the level, can we really call it a trap option for this one domain?   Especially when there's any number of outside factors that can increase the damage output?    No.      Yes, at level 17, the 4d8 (18) is better than 1d6+2d8+3 (15.5), but that is assuming absolutely the worse case scenario for the weapon user.   A wood elf using a simple +1 longbow beats out Sacred Flame in terms of average damage by 0.5 (and 5% accuracy), no other buffs or damage boosts in play; the same is true for a dwarf with a +2 hammer or axe (but a 10% accuracy boost!).  Humans benefit from damage boosting feats, and halflings benefit from Lucky when using weapons, but not Sacred Flame.   And, just one level earlier, we're talking 3d8 (13.5) versus 15.5 in terms of damage, meaning the Sacred Flame is objectively worse.    In order for something to be a trap, it has to be a bad option from the very earliest level, to the very last.   It can never be a good option.    For the Life Cleric, this is not true, and alll other Domains have a clear advantage to one style of attack or another at every level.     Admittedly, this is assuming we're talking about an equal chance of hitting AC and the enemy making the Dex save.   That's not always a given, and I'm not going to analyze the issue in detail; I've done enough for the night.    There are clear advantages and disadvantages to both styles, and only with the Life cleric is it really a choice - its not for the other Domains.
#24 Ashrym Apr 07, 2015 1:22:22	It's not a trap.  It's an addition option regardless of sacred flame because it's part of the domain subclass and not an either or choice.  If nothing else it's a back up for when sacred flame isn't an option.   Realistically it's a choice of build style more than a back up.  The OP gave an example where   Divine Strike: 1d6+2d8+8 (20.5 avg) Sacred Flame: 4d8 (18 avg)   shows that divine strikes is doing more damage before accuracy and without additional buffs or feats.  The example shows STR as a focus and that's okay because it's possible to do well with less STR than listed in the example, or focus on STR while downplaying WIS in the build, or investing substantially in both ability scores at the cost of feat options.  Each of those 3 options is viable so the only real issue is that weapons tend to require more careful planning than spells on  a cleric.  As mentioned, picking up shillelagh covers MAD better as well.