Maybe I'm too old school but I just don't see how you can align a devoted warrior and a guy who sells his soul to Demogorgon or Cthulu (I know there are fey ones too. They're not much nicer).
Stat-wise, okay, yeah I get it makes sense but just from a RP perspective, how are all you guys who are recommending this multiclass combo justifying this from a story perspective?
Mechanically, as much of a fan of 5e as I am -- I wish Warlocks used INT as their primary stat with CHR being a secondary stat used for some secondary abilities (and there, probably more for the Fey patron and not so much with Cthulu or Fiends). INT makes sense for a knolwedge-seeker, Warlocks line up much better with mage from a RP perspective if you want to Multiclass and it would have avoided this whole Paladin/Warlock nonsense from the beginning because once you took CHR away from Warlocks, I can promise you all these guys who "Have a great idea about a cool 'role playing' concept" to mesh a Paladin/Warlcok would suddenly get new ideas once their "cool" idea would be hopefully MAD and wouldn't play out mechanically very well.
Also, it'd throw another bone to INT, which is clearly the dump stat of 5e.
You don't see it? I'm making a paladin/warlock right now.
When he was recruited as a navigator aboard the privateer assigned to hunting down pirates, little did he know that he was being groomed as the new Dread Pirate Roberts (I'm stealing the name from my favourite film because I haven't thought of a name for my PC's mentor yet).
The Dread Pirate Roberts had a Bad Reputation, and he used that reputation to strike fear into the hearts of evildoers. Just like The Batman.
My PC was at Pal2 when his ship was attacked by an infamous pirate, and everyone was killed horribly except me.
Swearing vengeance, I expected to become a Pal3 and become a veangeance paladin. Unfortunately my oath was heard by a devil, who thought it would be amusing to have a paladin fall. So he gave the unsuspecting paladin the powers of a warlock.
Taking the Dread Pirate Roberts' name and plate armour, my pal/war now has his Bad Reputation, and is seen by the wider world as a villain even as he tries to be a hero. Just like when J. Jonah Jameson was giving Spider-Man a hard time.
Failing to escape that Bad Reputation, I instead embrace it to strike fear into the hearts of villains. When I reached war3 then my devil sent me an imp familiar (Pact of the Chain) with instructions to keep shapechanged as a raven, and pretend to be one of Odin's ravens sent to advise me, while subtly whispering suggestions that will encourage me to take more violent actions until 'the ends justify the means' leads me to fall.
I must try to remain a good guy while being tempted by evil. I'm really looking forward to playing this PC, and is one example of a way to multiclass paladin and warlock while still having a coherent backstory, not just min/maxing.
The tortured soul who has to make deals with nasty things that impact mostly himself for the greater good of all. Self-sacrifice and all that which is very paladin-esque. Moorcock's Eternal Champions, DC's Constantine, etc...
Also, a pact doesn't necessarily mean selling your soul. It means you have some sort of arrangement where your patron wants you to do favors for them. Demogorgon might send a Paladin to take out various servants of Orcus as an example - both Demogorgon and the Paladin/Warlock then benefit. Or maybe Demogorgon has been promised the Paladin's soul when he permanently dies, but in the meantime, the Paladin can do what he wants.
No. And calling a character idea "bullshit" is ... well, bullshit. You aren't "too oldschool", you are "too unimaginative".
Actually, I take that back... it doesn't take any imagination to make a paladin/warlock, it takes 5 minutes and an appreciation for some old tropes. What you have is a good guy with power from a demonic source - Ghost Rider, Constantine, Etrigan, Raven, Dean Winchester (season 8 & 9) and Sam Winchester (Seasons 3-5) and what... 3 other recurring characters from supernatural? 4? I binge-watched the first 7 seasons and all the episodes blended together. Spike/Angel/Willow... pretty much half the characters from Angel and a few from Buffy. Dorian Grey.
Now... I would normally have ignored this post because I don't usually bother arguing on the internet - there's no real point. However, I very much agree with the second part of your post, where Warlocks should have a different casting stat. I actually believe most of the spellcasters should be able to choose from the mental casting stats rather than being forced into one based on their class... so I agree with that part.
Why do the powers have to come with evil attached? I hate to use it as an example but Drizzt was good from a culture based in evil. Perhaps a rogue being from another world who cannot act directly against it's bretheren imbues some if it's power into someone they feel can make a difference. Knowing it lives among the wicked it feels that change must come from outside and who better than a champion of good to entrust such power.
Who says Paladins are Warriors of Light?
Many an Oath of Vengeance Paladin would disagree with you, and the "by any means necessary" clause could easily lend itself to forging a pact with some other power to accomplish their goals. Maybe he's seeking vengeance against defilers of nature (Archfey Pact)?
Even Paladins who consider themselves to be fighting for the "light" are not alwayys known for their humility - maybe in their arrogance they thought they could redeem the powers granted by their less than savory pact source.
And certainly the Green Knight Paladin is a natural fit for the Archfey Pact, right?
FrogReaver wrote:
Even the Warlock fluff is mutable. The creator of the Eberron setting has spoken of a character that was mechanically a Warlock, but the concept was that of a bound servant of the Silver Flame: a divine source of power for those who seek to fight supernatural evil and protect the innocent.
Indeed, a Paladin's Oath might be the very pact that makes them a warlock. Nothing in the rules requires that the pact be with an evil being.
I don't see any issue.
Then again, i don't see any issue with a warforged vampire swarm druid... (i.e. robo-mosquitoes).
mellored wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I didn't even think about re-fluffing the mechanics, which is odd for me since I made a warlock (by fluff) that was a monk (by mechanic). Also, we are only talking about a Paladin that sells his soul, not someone that sold their sould seeking redemtion through taking the vows of a Paladin (Sanya!)
Ah well... I think it's time to move on, do one is disagreeing that the combo is viable if done right, but overdone in many cases and it's a bit cliche.
Now, can we move on to the more interesting cyborg mosquitoes and bearded wolves?
I'm totally going to make a cyber ent for my next character.
mellored wrote:
I don't see a conflict whatsoever. I play an 12th level lawful evil Paladin 9/ Warlock 3 in AL. He is a paladin of vengence (doesn't worship any god, just gains his power from all his hate). He sold his soul to Asmodeus for more power (what is a soul anyway? I've never seen one). Afterall, one of the Tenents of vengence is-- By Any Means Necessary. If I have to sell my soul to slay my foes, so be it.
NamelessHero wrote:
If you can't see a Warlock/Paladin multiclass, by all means don't make one. Just don't impose your own view of those classes on others. It should be for the player to decide.
Forced alignment based on class (so that the player doesn't get to shape his own character) is thankfully gone in 5e, and good riddance.
I think an Archfey Patron with a Paladin whose sworn an Oath of the Ancients makes a perfect Summer Knight of Titania, Winter Knight of Mab, Hunter for the Erlking, etc. (Right now the character i play is essentially the Summer Knight concept of the Seelie Courts) can be pretty flavorful and make sense
A GOO Patron with a Paladin whose sworn an Oath of Devotion also can make some sense to preserve all knoweldge and learn everything. A Scholar Knight finds an old ritual and seeks to understand it, preforms it and comes in contact with a being from the Far Realms who nearly drives him mad filling his head with knowledge as he strides a fine line between madness is also a concept i've been throwing back and forth.
And The Fiend Patron, Oath of Vengance Paladin just makes all the flavor even better. It's a legitimate reason to have an Evil Paladin. Or just a LN Paladin whose not very nice.
I'm playiing a Fiend Pact Warlock in our current game, and I was seriously tempted to go vengeance paladin. His whole pact with the devil was to give him the power to get his vengeance for his family. Vengeance is his whole thing. They go together perfectly to me.
What about a Fey Pact warlock with an antidulivian forest spirit patron who has sworn an Oath of the Ancients? Also seem to go together perfectly.
The best opportunities in role-playing come not from the path most often travelled but by trying to make something work that doesn't seem playable.
I'd love to play a Great Old Pact Warlock who was just a teenager showing off an ancient tome he found to his friends when he inadvertently made a pact with a outsider of pure, jealous hunger and has only fought his cravings to destroy the world by swearing an Oath of Devotion.
As a DM, the thought of one PC with soooo many potential (and potentially conflicting) obligations makes me smile. 
I think an interesting idea for a Good-aligned Great Old One warlock is one who is taught psionic powers by a flumph.
@OP: I do not have a problem with a paladin-warlock combo. Exactly how it is justified can and should vary from character to character, and that assumes that one is using the standard warlock and paladin fluff found in 5e (refluffing or reskinning is both possible and a very good way to enable different character concepts).
I do think your objection is not so much based on you being "old-school" as it is based on you projecting your preconceptions about paladins and warlocks on the game. For example, paladin's don't even need to select an oath in 5e until 3rd level. A paladin character is also not forced to have an alignment that aligns with the oath that she has taken: she could conceivably start out with an evil alignment. Also, as others have pointed out, a warlock doesn't need to sell her soul as part of a pact: the pact simply creates an obligation to the patron (the specific terms of which should ideally be worked out by the player and the DM).
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Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
A Nature deity who chooses to have paladins in their service could certainly grant them additional power by having one of their Fey servants forge a warlock pact with the paladin.
(Amusingly, an Oath of Vengeance paladin of a Nature deity has an obligation to plant trees to replace those that have been cut down, but wouldn't kill someone for cutting down a tree even for clearing land to build a farm or even a town...)
A character who's a hereditary warlock (their ancestors/parents made the pact) or who was forced/tricked into the pact could become a paladin as a means of combatting the evil - going with the assumption that the pact was an evil thing - within them, and then take both paladin and warlock levels as a mechanical representation of the battle between good and evil for their soul.
Alternately, a paladin may willingly take on the sacrifice and burden of serving as a physical vessel to trap the power of a powerful being, and must routinely keep them weak and powerless by draining that power through constant use - thus, warlock levels and using those powers/abilities all the time. Your character summons the fires of Hell itself to cleanse the world of evil-doers and send them to Hell.
My first reaction was to think it's a forced fit. But, the idea of a oath of the ancient paladin, with a pact of the archfey from beyond the mists, well, it works very well and is a plausible multiclass option in my opinion. Again, the same with the Oath of Vengeance paladin, especially if said paladin makes a pact to pursue that oath, I could see that working depending on the story circumstances.
For me, the Ancients Paladin and Fey Warlock could easily belong to the same knighthood, much less the same church.
Also, the Paladin is suppose to cover avengers and blackguards, with a little refluffing, so yeah, no problems at all. It's a natural fit.
Imo, the warlock and wizard are thematically incompatible. They both practice ritual magic, but other than that and the fact they're arcane, there's nothing in common there, to me.
DoctorBadWolf wrote:
Patron1972 wrote:
I think the fluff problem with Paladin combined with Warlock, is a leftover from previous editions.
The historic idea of alignment restrictions on Paladin, was stupid.
Throw in the LG Paladin Code be-yotch thread that reached epic proportions.
Oh those tween-agers ... they rilly know how to throw down, eh?
4e ditched all that into the simplified alignment system.
5e improves on that, with 9 (or 10) but defined with only a sentence.
1e 2e 3e and 3.5e all had the other 8 alignment version of Paladin
published in official (!) Dragon magazine articles.
3.5e took that a 1/2 step further, and put 3 more into the SRD ; almost as core as the xph.
otoh
4e and 5e Warlock both got by the "all spirits are ONLY chaotic or evil or both" problem.
Mix in the Binder-ish stuff, and notice that those "spirits" from 3.5e included some lawfuls and goods.
I mean what's wrong with a Warlock Of Bahamut, or a Paladin Of Thor ??
Or hey, let's say IO decides he wants a Paladin Warlock.
He might have created the entire D&D multiverse (the dragons say he did and stupid you for not knowing).
So he certainly could have made a Paladin Warlock, if he was so inclined
... or ...
would you like to have a debate with your local Dragons club about what IO can and can not do?
My 4e Warlock took the Star Pact - approximately 5e Great Old One - and I fluffed him as an Astrologer / Astronomer. He brought the power of specific stars to bear on persons. (He also tried to use a portal to suck a BBEG into the Great Red Spot of Jupiter.)
My 5e Paladin of the Ancients has been re-fluffed to take an oath to Civilization. I'm still working out what that means, but the Protestant Work Ethic surely is a part - as Tiamat's plundering servants are finding out.
Can these be combined? Maybe so, if the increase of knowledge is also a feature of Civilization. As a Paladin/Warlock, I can learn what is about to happen and mess with you / your Fate in responce.
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
I had this paladin concept once. There was a group of powerful spirits/fey-type-things that set themselves up as gods and got worshippers. They stayed out of sight and worked more or less like gods do. The people of that culture considered them gods in every sense that mattered. So the character in question could be considered a paladin of their "god," and/or a warlock who made a pact with their "god." You'd never know from the concept unless I told you how many levels they had in each class.
Really, if you interpret a paladin's powers as coming from a god or devotion to that god, and a warlock's powers as coming from "a powerful magical entity," they're actually fairly similar. It's mostly a matter of how directly the god involves itself in the character's abilities. Look at the covenant the Jews have with Yahweh; Jews perform some rituals and do some things, Yahweh offers supernatural support (protection from enemies and stuff instead of superpowers, but I really think God dropped the ball on that one). Analogous to the concept of a paladin oath and losing powers for breaking it, but also to a powerful (and sometimes fickle) patron that offers rewards, demands services, and inflicts punishments as part of an ongoing deal.
This is not counting any baggage that paladin gods must be Good and warlock patrons must be Evil. But I'm loathe to dictate the "fluff" of a class itself, since I see them as subservient to the concept that a player wants to realize mechanically using those class features. Not sharing that assumption would be a sticking point.
Zardnaar wrote:
One concept that I think would be acceptable to even the strictest old school paladin type is for the patron to be Primus (G.O.O.). He/It is LN (in fact pretty much the embodiment of LN). He/It could have forseen that the paladin was going to be involved in something that would greatly benefit Order, but that the paladin would fail (and thus Order would not benefit), because he/she was missing some feature (like a ranged energy attack, read minds, or the ability to summon an elemental), and so Primus intervened by offering a deal. The terms of the deal could even be to undertake a quest that will on the surface benefit Law and Good (and if the paladin is subsequently ordered to undertake the same quest by his/her god or paladin order or king or whoever gives quests, well that is proof that the paladin did the right thing).
DoctorBadWolf wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
well, there's lots of perspectives. First is the free form hormone tween half-demon-half angel anime angsty character with a manga depiction stuck in a teen romance. There's several anime about this scenario or similar, like Ah My Goddess (Uld), and The Devil is a Part Timer.
There's the classical scenario from the 70s & 80s where the Romeo-Juliet race/class/alignment relationship of Crossed Stars hadn't happened yet, and in a black & white morality from before the end of the Hays code
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheHaysCode?from=Main.HaysCode
yeah, a Paladin/Warlock of Cthulhu is completely ridiculous.
Now, somewhere between the two extremes of Leave it to Beaver character stereotypes and Anything-Goes-Anime Comedies, you might find something like an Elven, Planar Touched Paladin/Warlock of Fey. Or perhaps an Anti-Paladin/Warlock of Infernal Deities. These are examples where the class/race/archtypes compliment, without becoming another paradox comedy or What if? Romance.
Macv12 wrote:
BRJN wrote:
My Warlock/Paladin started off as a half-elf Outlander Archfey warlock. Lived in the wilds, interacted with the fey, made deals with them for power, got stronger. When he hit level 3, he took the Pact of the Tome to increase his arcane knowledge. One of the spells in the tome was Shillelagh, a magic that let him turn his simple walking stick into a magical cudgel that even he, who was fit but not terribly strong, was capable of wielding with great force. He quickly became adept with its usage in combat, and at 4th level he took a feat (Polearm Master) to be more proficient in its usage.
His growing prowess caught the attention of the leader of the good fae (herself essentially a demigod), and he was offered further militant training in exchange for further devotion to the protection of nature. He agreed, and took a level in paladin, which served to increase his training in armor, taught him usage of shield, and gave him a further array of weapon skills (though he still favored his trusty quarterstaff). His training continued, and soon he was able to tap into a different sort of power and channel it through his weapon. Further training, and he made a magically binding Oath of service to the Ancients. He continued to grow in power, but as he reached the middle of his adventuring career he started yearning for the sorts of power he'd originally wielded, and so he turned back to the path of the warlock while still maintaining his oath of service to the Ancients.
It just takes a little imagination ;)
I also had a half-elf paladin in 4e who was going for a Warlock MC. He had high Charisma, but low Strength and Intelligence. He was the child of a powerful human warrior and a renowned elven cleric, but he was scrawny child who didn't have the head for books. Nonetheless, he joined the paladin order of his mothers faith out of a sort of familial obligation. As a low-level paladin, he was out in the wilds and got attacked by a bear. He panicked, and after a few wild swings, he uttered a desperate prayer. Unfortunately for him, he completely fumbled his Elvish in his ignorance and panic, and ended up accidentally invoking an Elder God. A beam of radiant light shot down from the heavens and smote the bear, and he was convinced his prayers had been answered, that he was truly a chosen of the gods. The voices that started whispering to him and his ability to invoke heavenly radiance on his foes were clearly proof of this..
Patron1972 wrote:
robneto wrote:
I think this is basically the same as everybody else is saying, but I'm going to say it anyway:
The issue the OP seems to be having is based on legacy ideas about what a "Paladin" is (LG fighter gets their power from their devotion to a very specific version of Law and Good) and what a Warlock is (non-L, non-G caster who gets their powers specifically from a pact with a demon or devil).
There are certainly *some* versions of the 5E Paladin and Warlock that don't make sense. It's hard to see how a Lawful Good Paladin with the Oath of Devotion would wind up selling their soul to Cthulhu without violating at least some of the tentets of their oath and alignment (or seriously upsetting Cthulhu).
On the other hand there are some versions of the 5E Paladin and Warlock that actually complement each other extremely well - like Oath of the Ancients and Archfey Pact, or Oath of Vengeance and ... pretty much anything (since striking deals with demons falls very clearly within the realms of "any means necessary").
Most of the time, they're simply orthogonal. Do some people start with the desire for a cheesy mechanical power-combo, and come up with the RP justification afterwards? Probably. But that doesn't interfere with my game any. And heck, if it leads to an interesting character, why is it my business what inspired it.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
I see the flavor text as a guidance. Sometimes it can really help me get a feel for the class and what it represents. Other times I get an idea of a character that I want to play then I try to use to rules to help me construct the character. In either case I make a theme and sometimes this theme is close to a character class and sometime I change the flavor to make it fit my theme.
The key is I make something that is fun to play and a character that is fun for others to play with. An example of this is a paladin/warlock from 4th. The idea was a this character was from an alternate world were evil rules and the good god's of this world such as pelor were at best neutral. She eximplified the burning wrath of the sun instead of its healing warmth. This character used a few feats to use cha as an attack stat which was very cool and thematic, but not overpowering.
I was able to do this character because I used the rules available to make a character with my flavor added. I like how 5th edition gives guidelines but then give you the tools to make what you want. Probably the best example of this is backgrounds and the ability to make custom backgrounds.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Patron1972 wrote:
In this world i am a blue dragonborn, who has turned against his clan. One day he realized that eating sentient beings was not a good act. its hard for him not to take a bite.. when there is all this meet laying around after a battle. He started his tale as a Druid(1), who upon coming to the mainland, did met and druidic guardians of the coast that only spared him because he spoke of seeking the sanctuary of the glades in the druidic tongue. safe passage and guidance was given to him and to the elven captain he rescued from being sacrificed for some light he held inside of him. (short version) While in the glade he was healed and offered service for some time. in that time he met some knights of the ancient's and was so enamored with them that he pledged service to the order there on the spot. They were fighting for exactly what he felt compeled to serve. Hes a wise dragonborn, so he learned in a couple of moons time. what it is that makes one willing to utter the oath of the ancients, in that most ancient of rites. While we have traveled i have worn only the hide armor of druid/squire, and used but a quarterstaff. He took beat back dispar litterally.
On our last advanture, came very close to death.. 3..2..20. the creature that almost killed me, was a red dragonborn, a tad smaller then me in both strength and constitution who was armored in full platemail. A smith said he would resize it for me. Have not worn it yet, but intend it. it is being reetched with oak leaves and acorns, buckhorn and jackrabbits and the like. Before i get very long winded here. asked DM, hes looked into and ruled that the armor wouldnt effect my druidic abilitities as i learned how to use metal armor from the paladins. So thats not a factor.
Before we set sail last week, we advanced to the fourth degree in our trainings.
He is at a crossroads in his life right now. I am disreguarding what i should do mechanically, because frankly he is scared to death. He thought he was to be a druid for his life, only to betray his clan. he thought he should be a paladin and take this oath. This Oath mind you, once he takes means he will never again train in another class beside paladin. It is that binding of an Oath, at least to him.
Now he knows that the knights of the ancient oak all serve one of the Archfey. He almost died in his mind, in the service of this Archfey. He has nothing against warlocks in this fey's service, infact he has often thought about joining them, for he longs to speak with a pseudodragon. He is very much conflicted.
Druid 1
Paladin 1
Paladin 2 (Now)
Warlock 1
Warlock 2
Warlock 3
Druid 2
Paladin 3-15
Is what i am thinking for his progression. I know mechanically its not optomial. but man he almost died and is demanding more from this fey for his service. If the archfey wishes him to serve undying as one of his knights(15paladin), then the least he can do is offer him the soliace of a familiar that will keep him company. As far as the druid 2, he does owe still a debt to the circle and did promise to be their eyes and ears out in the new world.
Just the thoughts of why a drualok (druid/paladin/warlock) would choose this path.
Also bear in mind. In our world. the BBUG is trying to bring back the creator diety who was slain and whos body was scattered beyond the seven winds and across the planes. We currently have in our possession one of the arms of this creator (strangely human sized/shaped/taste i licked it). This creator was slain because his 8 wifes didnt want to be destroyed when he remade the world because he was unhappy one day. the 8 of them had between them had 32 children with him who they didnt want destroyed either. They called in favors with the fey for assistance in that battle. In return the fey demanded future favors to be decided later, so hard pressed with the 40 that they agreeed. My character is one of the few that have not sworn the oath of the ancients that is aware of this. a monk with us, knows a simular tale that his order has passed down unto the years.