Otto's Irresistable Dance is a SINGLE TARGET LEVEL 6 wisdom based spell that doesn't even incapacitate the target! That must mean it sucks right?
Obviously the big advantage to Irresistable Dance is that it doesn't allow for a save for the first round, and it requires an action for every round after that.
But is that enough to save this spell from being the most abysmal level 6 spell evar??
Let's discuss!
What does Otto's Irresistable Dance Do?
So it doesn't incapacitate the target, so what does it do?
Effects:
- All speed needs to be spent dancing (So effective speed = 0)
- Attack rolls made by the creature have Disadvantage
- Dexterity saves made by the target have Disadvantage
- Attack rolls made against the target have Advantage
That all sounds very familiar. It sounds like Restrain. In fact, instead of summarizing, I'm just going to copy and paste what that condition does:
R e s t r a in e d
• A restrained creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t
benefit from any bonus to its speed.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage,
and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.
• The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity
saving throws.
So basically, what Otto's Irresistable Dance is is the Restrain condition, but it affects creatures that are immune to the Restrain Condition, but instead cannot effect creatures that are immune to Charm.
Ultimately, whether or not Otto's Irresistable Dance is good at all comes down to whether Restrain is good.
Is the Restrained Condition Good?
Yes. Well, it depends.
Does your Enemy need movement to be effective? If yes, then restrain is good.
Does your party benefit from attack rolls. If yes, then restrain is good.
Can you or any of your party members take advantage of a single target having disadvantage on dexterity saves. If yes, then restrain is good.
Restrain vs. Incapacitate
Restrain isn't incapacitate, since the former allows the target to make actions all they want, and the latter doesn't provide benefits to your party.
Thus I don't think that Restrain should be compared to Incapacitate, because there are enough differences in kind to differentiate the two.
Restrain vs. Paralyzed
Paralyzed on the other hand is Incapacitated on steroids. It basically combines the effects of Restrained and Incapacitate - except the saving throw aspect is even better on Paralyzed - and it adds in free critical hits for melee attackers. This is pretty sweet, and definitely trumps restrain in all situations.
So what should Otto's Irresistable Dance be compared to?
I think it's fair to compare Otto's dance to several different options - basically any wisdom save or any spell that causes the restrain condition. For the sake of this discussion though I'll just pick five spells and compare using bullet points - but with special bullets as outlined below:
+ This is an advantage the spell has compared to Otto's Dance
- This is a disadvantage in the comparison
0 This is a difference in kind - in other words, circumstances may dictate that the Dance is better, and other circumstances may dictate that the spell in question is better.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
+ Is a level 1 spell
- Prone Condition isn't as good as restrain since it causes disadvantage to your ranged buddies and is dispelled in a round without costing an action.
- Provides an initial save which if succeeded against, the spell does nothing and the slot and action are wasted.
- Provides a save each round without requiring an action.
- Provides a save any time the target takes damage
0 Does not have charm typing (But instead has unique intelligence requirement.)
0 Incapacitates (not restrain)
Web
+ Large AOE Effect
+ Creates difficult terrain even if they save.
+ Lightly obscures the area
+ Is a level 2 spell
+ Requires an action to make an additional save to break free
- Has friendly fire issues (Making it difficult for melee to use the advantage on their attacks.)
- Provides initial save to escape.
0 Targets Dex instead of Wisdom
0 One hour duration
Telekinesis
+ Targets Strength Save instead of Wisdom
+ Can be used over and over again vs. the same target
+ Has utility uses and can be used to disarm opponents or the use object action instead of just restraining a single target.
+ Can move the target up to 30' while you restrain them
+ Is a level 5 spell
- Creature Size is taken into account on what it can effect.
- Creature gets an initial save which cancels the effect and wastes your action if they succeed (but can try again by spending another action.)
- Restrain effect does not persist unless you spend an action each round to maintain
Hold Monster
+ Causes the Paralyzed condition
+ Is a level 5 spell (Affects 2 monsters if cast as a level 6 spell.)
- Provides an initial save which if successful wastes your action and your spell slot (Odds are better if you cast it as a 6th level slot though.)
- Provides a free save at the end of each round (No action required.)
Eyebite
+ Lasts 10 rounds letting you use it on 10 different creatures (provided you spend the action during the duration.)
+ Gives 3 options for effects, meaning that basically nothing will be immune to everything it can do.
- Provides an initial save which wastes your action if successful and prevents you from targeting that creature for the rest of the casting.
- Each effect has a free method of saving throughout the duration (Though sleep only breaks on damage.)
How Valuable is "Guaranteed"?
You can certainly make arguments for each of the 5 spells as competitors against Otto's Dance, but the common thread between all comparisons against any spell 6th level and lower is the fact that Otto's Dance will always work for the first round - as well as its stickiness in regards to how it requires an action to save at all.
Is this a tipping point? Just how valuable is this factor?
Instead of listing a ton of white room scenarios, I'll point out two uses of Otto's Dance that demonstrate the value of this guarantee.
1. Post BBEG Initiative Timing - If your caster goes right after the BBEG, the rest of your party each get to take advantage of of the benefits before the target even gets to make a save. This of course increases in value based on the capabilities of the rest of your party. The more attack rolls your party makes the better - so Rangers, Fighters, Monks, and Warlocks will lay down the hurt pretty hard, particularly if they had a 50% chance or less for hitting the target in the first place. Blasters of course will appreciate the Dex save disadvantage.
2. Clutch Positioning - All of the target's movement is eaten up at the beginning of the round, so this can literally stop ANYTHING dead in its tracks. In a less combat heavy situation, like a chase, this can mean the world, even if they use their action to immediately dispell the effect on their turn.
Footnote: Legendary Saves - Any of the compared spells are immediately thwarted by a legendary save. Otto's Dance works through that for applying either of the two above options - assuming your legendary monster isn't outright immune to charm (None of the dragons are).
And even if the spell is dispelled on the first round, you've still wasted at least one of their actions - gauranteed. If they don't spend their action, that's at least one more round of added benefits.
Yunru wrote:
It's a 6th level spell with a single target effect that provides a saving throw every round.
That you can compare it to Tasha's Hideous Laughter (a first level spell) without it being a runaway says it all.
I've of course put my vote in for this before, but I will again.
Otto's Irresistable Dance = 
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Otto's doesn't give a save each turn; the target needs to give up it's action to make the save. Tasha's, on the other hand, gives a save every turn and every time the target takes damage. Tasha's also doesn't prevent movement. Tasha's restricts movement and prevents actions (incapacitated doesn't prevent movement). Because Tasha's makes prone it has a negative impact on ranged attacks. Normally, I would just use hold monster. Otto's does have some niche points that might be important to some players. It's V only; that means no open hand required so could be important if no feats are allowed or if the player is taking a different feat. It also matters because it's available if the focus is taken away somehow. Otto's affects more target types than most spells. Not all undead are immune but all undead are immune to hold. It works in the right campaign but I think it's generally poor.
It's a little niche, but it's definatly has it's uses.
Ashrym wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
mellored wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Yeah, I figured that ultimately we'd have to agree to disagree.
I was mostly kidding about Bestow Curse, it's just on my list of control options with no concentration. I DO eventually want to try comboing it with the Bard's bane spell for that 12.5% easier application, but even in past editions I haven't had much luck with the spell (And besides having the unique advantage of being stackable with other controls, nothing much has changed with it.)
I don't disagree with your thoughts about cantrips, but Minor Image is heavily dependant on the DM, unfortunately. I've had DMs that I could use illusion spells with high reliability, and I've had others that try to eek around any effect regardless of creativity or realism.
You guys didn't talk about Legendary saves. Dance is good vs. a legendary creature, cast it each turn for a roughtly 60% lock down.
I don't like Tasha's except vs. a boss at low levels without legendary saves. You use your action to have a chance at having a creature lose it's turn, it gets multiple chances to get free and requires concentration.
I like spells like wall of force, wall of stone, that just work and don't allow a save. If I cast a save spell it will usually affect many targets so I hope I can hit one of them.
Jared711 wrote: