Hi guys,
I'm working on building a new 14th level PC for my group's ongoing Age of Worms campaign.
While I was reading through the magic items in the new DMG the other day, I came across the moonblade. It looks like a lot of fun - not just because of all the random properties but also because of the fluff. I love the whole ancestral weapon thing. Luckily, the DM likes the idea too, although we haven't settled on specifics yet (I've asked that it at least have the finesse property, although I also really like the look of the elfshadow property too).
I'm also wanting to play a defenderish sort of character this time around (the other PCs in the group include a shadow monk, a tempest cleric, an evoker wizard, and a moon druid), although I find the typical fighter types to be a bit boring, so I'm going to multiclass her into bard or something.
For feats, I'm going to take Sentinel and Shield Master. Probably also Medium Armor Master to get the most out of the half-plate armor I'm going to have her wear - I want her to be Dex-based, so I'm not going to give her heavy armor. I'm going to give her a sentinel shield (it's only uncommon, so I shouldn't have any trouble starting with one), and I'd like to be able to improve her Initiative so she has a decent chance of getting into position early in the fight.
I'm also thinking of at least a one-level dip into fighter to pick up a second fighting style so I can have both the Defense and Dueling styles.
Multiclassing into bard synergizes really well with an Ancients paladin, not just because of the Cha focus but also the fluff - the Oath of the Ancients is all about protecting beauty and art and stuff. (The moonblade also expects its owner to uphold elven ideals, which include that sort of stuff too.) 3 levels of lore bard will give me a bunch more skills plus the Cutting Words ability. Going to 5 levels will let me recharge my Inspiration dice after a short rest too.
The thing is, I also really like the druid's thorn whip cantrip. I think it fits the theme of a fey knight, and it seems to be the only low-level spell that lets you pull someone towards you. But the only viable way for me to get it would be to take three levels of warlock to get it via Book of Shadows, or six levels of lore bard to get it via Magical Secrets. Warlock could be fairly thematic too, especially with the fey pact. So I'm just not sure. Warlock wouldn't tack on as many spells (well, quite a few cantrips but not so many limited resource spells), whereas bard only grants a couple of cantrips but lots more known spells - as well as some high level spell slots I can burn on smites and such.
What other ways are there to get the enemies to come to you? The paladin has compelled duel, although it seems of limited use (it's a 1st level spell, not a cantrip, and it looks like it can be canceled rather easily), and the battlemaster has the Goading Attack maneuver. Is there anything else? I know this isn't 4e with all its pushing/pulling/sliding powers, but it would still be nice to have some ability to get monsters to come attack me instead of the squishy wizard or whatever.
For the record, I rolled the following for my stats: 10 11 12 14 16 17.
I'm thinking STR 13 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 16 (half-elf: +1 Str, +1 Dex, +2 Cha)
Alternatively, if I can convince the DM to let me start with an amulet of health as well, I can have the following instead: STR 13 DEX 18 CON 19 (10) INT 11 WIS 14 CHA 18. Or I might just take the Tough feat instead of Medium Armor Master to get more hit points.
I really want to focus on the idea that this PC's role is to protect the other PCs, although I also want her to have some good social skills. She's the last of a noble elf house (and she's not even a full-blooded elf at that) who has chosen to take up arms against the threat of Kyuss's return, which will spell the end of everything she has sworn to defend.
What do you guys think? Any suggestions?
I like your concept and I think I might create my own Fey Knight.
Warlock Pact Slots may be less, but they recycle after every short rest.
Other Invocations may be useful. I'd probably take Misty Visions, especially if I was just doing Paladin and Warlock. But I would personally also consider multiclassing as Warlock and Bard with Paladin. Spreads things thinly, creates a lot of style though.
Would be good to see your final concepts made as character sheets
If I multiclass into warlock, I'll take the Beguiling Influence invocation (for more skills) and possibly Devil's Sight. Misty Vision is definitely fitting, though, and could be a contender.
I wish there was a way to get the extra skills and Cutting Words ability from the bard without getting all the spells too. LOL. I also wish there was an easier way to get thorn whip.
I've given the concept some more thought, and I think because she's a half-elf, she'll be the bastard child of one of the last members of the elf noble house. Her parent will be dead and then her aunt or uncle, whoever is the last, bequeaths the sword (and the more or less meaningless noble title) to the bastard because otherwise the sword would fade into obscurity, and that's not what it (or the previous wielder) wants.
Thorn whip is VSM. A paladin can get away with paladin spells using the shield as a focus, but both hands are full if the paladin is using a shield and sword. Another class for thorn whip would require a free hand for the somatic components or war caster feat, and a free hand for a component pouch or an implement suitable to the other class providing thorn whip per MC rules.
Unless you are able to use the weapon for a focus and have war caster feat, or the DM is not following those rules, you would need to give up on the shield.
You already seem to have 3 feats picked out and it looks like you need a 4th when one fighter level and three other levels on a split only gives you ASI's at 4th and 8th level on your character; the other two classes having picked up ASI's and the paladin levels haven't reached twelve levels. I would be inclined to priortize and not try to do so much at once because your basic design is not possible following the rules. The alternative where you had 6 lore bard, 1 figher, 7 paladin is still only 2 ASI's for feats. You need a lot of DM allowances.
14th level valor bard doesn't have cutting words, but he does have 2 attacks just like a paladin, or could use the cantrip and still take an attack as a bonus action. Pick up the cantrip as a bard spell, and 3 other suitable matching spells from the paladin list if desired, or a different list, focus on buffs and utility spells in those and the bard spells, and you have something similar to what you are describing. You won't have cutting words but you will have the medium armor and shield proficiencies, and weapon proficiencies, and a lot of bardic inspiration abilities for your team. You'll also have that bonus skill from being a bard, but jack-of-all trades to go with it.
If you want the bard abilities then a bard is the easiest way to get them. It's a very customizable class, and fits the fey motif in 1e from the druidic heritage, or 3e when it touched back on 1e styles a bit with the naturalist concept mentioned in quintessential bard. 5e was had a deliberate focus on that direction as well, and it's easy enough to take the right skills and spells to match the concept on that style of character.
If that doesn't work for you, then you'll likely be prioritizing and giving something else up. Your best bet in that case is paladin 8 / lore bard 6 and forget the second fighting style.
Good catch re: thorn whip's components. I hadn't noticed that. I guess that means I'm stuck with compelled duel and maybe Goading Attack if I go the battlemaster route.
As for feats, I'll start out with at least 8 levels of paladin, plus at least 4 levels of something else (be it bard, fighter, or warlock) so I can get the three feats at the start.
Which do you think would be better: Tough for the extra 28 hp or Medium Armor Master for the +1 AC and lack of disadvantage on Stealth (which I could potentially get from having mithril armor instead)?
I don't really want to go valor bard. If I go bard at all, it'll be lore bard for the extra skills and Cutting Words.
One other concern I have is that Cutting Words, Sentinel and Shield Master may end up competing for my reaction.
Yunru wrote:
mellored wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Or more precisely favouring +1 AC over +1 Dex Save, +1 Dex Check (Initiative included), +1 accuracy and +1 damage because you "prefer feats".
On the one hand, I find that maximising your stats doesn't seem as important in this edition as it was in some previous editions. With that in mind, I enjoy taking feats - with all the cool extra options they offer - over the straight numerical increases that ASIs offer.
On the other hand, this campaign will be going to 20th level. I'll have time to bump my Dex up to 20 later. So I don't really have to choose between a Dex bump or MAM; I can have both. The choice is just in which one I start with and which one I save for later.
Unless you can show me a way to get an AC of 22+ with mage armor, then I think going with MAM and half-plate makes more sense.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, a +2 shield is a rare item. There's no guarantee I can start with one. The sentinel shield, on the other hand, is uncommon and doesn't even require attunement. I should be able to get one of those plus a cloak of protection at the start, as I'm pretty sure the DM will say to use either the standard or high magic starting gear.
The sentinel shield is great: advantage on Initiative and Perception (which equates to a +5 to passive Perception; I can end up with at least a 20 passive Perception even though I most likely won't have a Wis bonus).
Of course, there's also the possibility that the moonblade will end up as a defender, which would be cool. The DM's on holiday at the moment, so I won't know what exactly the moonblade can do until early in the new year.
MAM is only good if your stealthing and have 16 dex.
Yeah, I'd like to be able to use Stealth. My Dex is obviously higher than 16, though.
Studded leather + shield + Dex 18 + Defense = AC 19
Mage armor + shield + Dex 18 = AC 19
Half plate + shield + Dex 18 + Defense + MAM = AC 21
Full plate + shield + Defense = AC 21
or
Studded leather + shield + Dex 20 + Defense = AC 20
Mage armor + shield + Dex 20 = AC 20
Half plate + shield + Dex 20 + Defense + MAM = AC 21
Full plate + shield + Defense = AC 21
Seems to me like either way, I'm better off with medium or heavy armor. If I could convince my DM to let me have mithril full plate, I could go with that and forgo MAM. I'd have to watch the weight of all that I'm carrying, though - mithril armor says it's lightweight but doesn't seem to reduce the actual weight of the armor like it did in previous editions.
In terms of magic items, I'm pretty sure my DM will go with standard (two uncommon items), although he'll probably let me spend some of the 5k+ gold on at least one other item. Then again, he may say I have to forfeit the uncommons in order to justify starting with a legendary weapon (depending on how many properties he ends up giving it, I suppose). He probably won't, though, so I'm looking at hopefully a sentinel shield, a cloak of protection, and a moonblade at the very least. I'd love to add an amulet of health to the mix, too, but that may be asking too much. I might be able to buy mithril armor with some of that gold, since it's technically not magical ...
mellored wrote:
Ancients paladin 8 / lore bard 5 / fighter 1 if you still want the 2nd fighting style works. I am tempted to say blade pact warlock instead just so you can turn the moonblade into a pact weapon, mostly for flavor as opposed to mechanics. 28 more hp depends on how often you are attacked and successfully hit. If you are looking at stealth and and AC while frontlining hits the AC can go farther; it's not normally the better option but saving 3 hits in a day covers it easily. You need to be attacked 60 times a day to have it save 3 hits, in general, so work from that estimate.
Ashrym wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
mellored wrote:
Good point.
I had a good look at my options last night, and I think that I can rule out warlock. I had a hard time finding warlock spells that I wanted to pick, whereas with the bard, there are too many!
The Oath of the Ancients entails defending "good, beauty, love, and laughter" and delighting "in song and laughter, in beauty and art". The moonblade also expects its owner to champion the elven ideals of "courage, loyalty, beauty, music, and life". Bard synergizes extremely well with all of that. Warlock not so much.
With that in mind, for bard spells, I'd probably take three of the following cantrips: dancing lights, minor illusion, prestidigitation, vicious mockery. I probably wouldn't use the latter very often, but it would be nice to have just in case. The others would all mainly be for sh*ts and giggles.
For 1st level spells, I'll probably go with some combination of charm person, cure wounds, dissonant whispers, healing word, and Tasha's hideous laughter. For 2nd level spells, some combination of calm emotions, enthrall, hold person, invisibility, phantasmal force, shatter, and suggestion. For 3rd level, probably just hypnotic pattern, although dispel magic and tongues look pretty good too.
So now it's a toss-up between bard 5 / paladin 15 and bard 5 / fighter 6 / paladin 9.
Bard 5 / paladin 15 gets me a whole bunch of paladin goodies (Aura of Courage, Imp Divine Smite, 4th level spells, Undying Sentinel), but I end up missing out on one ASI/feat slot.
Bard 5 / fighter 6 / paladin 9 gets me 5 ASI/feat slots, and if I start in fighter I can get Con as a save proficiency. It also gives me Action Surge and either Imp Critical or some maneuvers (depending on what fighter subclass I choose), but I only get up to 3rd level paladin spells, and I don't get the immunity to fear that Aura of Courage grants, nor do I get Imp Divine Smite or Undying Sentinel.
I could potentially also go bard 5 / fighter 4 / paladin 11. That would give me Aura of Courage and Improved Divine Smite at the cost of a fifth ASI/feat slot.
I'm hoping to get some mithril plate, which would let me use Stealth without disadvantage and ignore the Str 15 requirement, and net me a base AC of 20 with a shield. If I can get a cloak of protection, that bumps my AC up to 21. If I take the Defense fighting style as well, that would bump it up to 22, all while leaving an ASI/feat slot open for something else, like bumping my Dex up to 20.
If I go bard 5 /fighter 6 /paladin 9 and get 5 ASI/feat slots, I could bump Dex up to 20, Cha up to 18, and take the Shield Master, Sentinel, and Inspiring Leader feats. If I go with some combo that only gets me 4 slots, I'd probably forgo bumping Cha to get Inspiring Leader, although that feat and many of the bard/paladin features would benefit from having a higher Cha.
Decisions, decisions!
Thoughts?
Is there a reason you keep pushing the warlock? I like the class in general; I'm just not feeling it for this particular character. The bard feels more right to me.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
New question: Which would be better for this PC, 14 more hit points or a +1 to Cha checks, spell DCs and the like?
I'm wondering if maybe instead of putting the 16 in Con and the 14 in Cha (which gets bumped to 16), I should switch them around so I can start with an 18 in Cha.
If you take inspiring leader I would favor the charisma bump. It fits your defender role. I like melloreds suggestion of defensive dualist as well. If they attack your ally you can use cutting words, if they attack you activate defensive dualist.
The other option for defense that I havent seen used is to use those level 1 spells on Eldritch Knight Shield. With EK 3, lore 6, paladin 5 you're a level 9 caster. Shield 4 times a day and a base AC of 20 should make your plenty resilient. This gets you weapon bond as well which looks flavorful with the moonblade your character is centered on. Also there's no end to the things you can do with Magical Secrets. I'd recommend summon woodland creatures for your build. Wall of fur is seriously competent and sounds like it fits right in the fey knight idea.
Thanks for commenting, WizardV!
WizardV wrote:
Either options 2 or 3 look preferable to me on paper. I think you could do both and grab the war caster feat anyway in place of shield master or defensive duelist. It won't be all day but its enough that if you stretch your level 2 slots you can easily last 6 encounters of heavy fire. Remember, you don't use a slot for all those rounds the enemies miss your AC, and you can afford to get hit a few times as well, especially with inspiring leader.
Do you reckon 14 Con is enough for a defender?
Good points. Thank you both. That makes things a bit easier for me.
Now I don't need to worry about getting a fifth ASI/feat slot. I can just stick with four and use them for +2 Dex, Shield Master, Sentinel, and Inspiring Leader.
14 Con is only part of the story. You have inspiring leader giving you more HP than if you just had 18 CON. If you have defensive duelist or shield thats even more damage you didn't take. Cutting words can boost that even further for you and your party. All together, I think you'll be more than fine. You probably won't need a heal in combat except for the most egregious repeated fireball scenarios and if you don't go the grapple route you can actually have a respectable reflex save too.
WizardV wrote:
Yunru wrote:
material components arn't really an issue. you can swap your sword for an implement when you cast, then draw the weapon again next turn. it's not like you can cast both and attack on the same turn anyways (except for bonus action spells)
also, be carefull about taking too many concentration spells.
Yunru wrote:
Well, yes, but that's not what I meant. 
EDIT: I was thinking mirror image could be fun. It's not Concentration, and having a 20 Dex means that the images would have their max AC of 15. Could help with defense - and is somewhat more fun than just another +1 to AC.
mellored wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Exactly. I get why they did it like that but still ...
Anyway, I think I may have figured out how to make either bard or warlock work without needing War Caster! In both cases, I mainly just need to stick with spells that are either more for out of combat utility or can be safely cast during the first round of combat (or just before).
Cantrips
minor illusion (S/M) - components aside, I'm not likely to be using this one in the middle of combat anyway
prestidigitation (V/S) - this one's not much use in combat either
vicious mockery (V) - since it's only got a verbal component, I can cast this just fine while I've got my sword and board in hand!
1st Level
charm person (V/S) - components aside, the spell discourages its use during combat anyway; I could ostensibly use it either to prevent (or delay) a combat or to end one
dissonant whispers (V) - like vicious mockery, this one just has words, so I can use it while I'm holding my sword and shield just fine
healing word (V) - ditto
Tasha's hideous laughter (V/S/M) - I love this spell and I think it fits the theme; because of its component requirements, I'm best using it first, then drawing my sword to attack the prone target with advantage; if I've already got my sword drawn, though, I'll just have to not use it
2nd Level
calm emotions (V/S) - while this could be useful for preventing (or delaying) a combat or ending it early, the somatic component prevents me from using it to rescue charmed or frightened allies in the midst of combat while I'm holding my sword and shield
detect thoughts (V/S/M) - I can't see myself using this in the middle of combat, so this one's component requirements are no biggie
invisibility (V/S/M) - I can safely use this leading into a combat, but I'd have to put away my sword or shield to use it in the middle of one
3rd Level
hypnotic pattern (S/M) - Like Tasha's, this one looks like it'd work best as an opening salvo, while my sword is still sheathed.