First Fighter or Ranger then Bard? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 Kantro Sep 29, 2014 21:29:26	Other discussions on the forum have indicated the Bard can afford 3 levels of dipping without too much loss but what about starting in another class for the Saving Throws, armour or features? I want to create a Valor flavour Bard and hope to have acces to a 9th level spell (love Foresight). Going Fighter first gives Str & Con saving throws instead of Dex & Cha which will help Concentration but hurt Initiative. One level earns a fighting style (very much want this, probably duellist for flavour) as well as armour and other goodies. The second level Action Surge is nice and the 3rd level could make Champion for the critical hit improvement. On the other hand, going Ranger means having to go do it first because my character's Stat line would not allow multiclassing in later. The Saving Throws are Str & Dex which is fine for the valorous lifestyle. 2nd level gets the desired fighting style. The real pull for Ranger though is getting the Hunter Horde Breaker feature for extra attacks as the Valor Bard wades in with his rapier & buckler. The problem becomes needing 3 levels, probably early, before going Valor Bard thus delaying the Extra Attack until 9th level. On the plus side is a little bump on spell slots and some useful spells (e.g. Hunter's Mark). One could make the argument that going Fighter or Ranger first or early is better for the Lore Bard but if I was going Lore Bard at all I would more than dip into Fighter, taking 6 levels for the Ability feat upgrades, maybe a 7th for Remarkable Athlete and the balance into Lore Bard which would in effect be a very Valorous Bard at the expense of some spell levels and features. So the question is: What of the above options (or others) makes a better fun swashbuckling Valorous flavour Bard and what levels of what should be taken when to achieve that goal. FYI, was thinking of starting with Defensive Duellist if variant Human rather than Half-Elf.
#2 2Chlorobutanal Sep 29, 2014 22:32:31	Generally multiclassing as a primary spellcaster is harmful to character ability because it sets your character's "power breakpoints" several levels behind a single-classed character. If you take three Fighter or Ranger levels, your Bard spellcasting is going to be significantly "behind the curve." Additionally, 3 levels prevents the Bard from learning Magical Secrets (level 18), which would allow the bard to poach 9th-level spells from any class. Getting foresight at level 20 is significantly different than getting it at level 17, and the same would be true of every other "benchmark" spell that such a character would receive 3 levels "late." Also, note that proficiency in Dexterity saves has no impact on initiative at all, as initiative rolls are ability checks, not a saving throws. At the absolute most, I would say a Bard could get away with 1 or 2 Fighter levels. Even this will be a significant impediment to spellcasting, however. The Valor Bard gets most of the features he or she needs to be a warrior without multiclassing, so I'm not sure that Fighter would even be much of a gain. If you want a fighter with some Bard spells, multi-classing is more viable- but if you want to be a "full" Bardic spellcaster with 9th level spells, I would avoid multiclassing. You can pick up abilties through feats and the Valor college that will enable you to fight effectively. If you want to play a 'swashbuckler' bard spellcaster, I would go College of Valor, take a scimitar or rapier as a weapon, and have a high Dex and Cha score. While "Duelist Style" may sound thematic, in practice it's just +2 damage, so nothing that can't be replicated through other features. You could take Defensive Duelist or Martial Adept (learning Disarming Attack or Riposte or Tripping Attack) to reinforce your character concept. Defensive Duelist certainly has some overlap with a Valor Bard's inspiration dice.
#3 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 30, 2014 0:37:30	If you want to be a high-Str platemail bard, then starting as Fighter 1 is very useful (as well as for Concentration saves). Otherwise, for effectiveness, you're better off just sticking to a pure Bard. Because pure spellcaster.
#4 Timborama Sep 30, 2014 6:18:53	Only reason to go Ranger is that you only sacrifice 1 level in Spell Slots. You're still behind in progression due to how multi-classing works, but a 2-level dip ain't bad. Only reasons to go Fighter are Heavy Armor and Action Surge. Again, not too bad for a 2-level dip. I mention 2-level dips due to Magic Secrets at 18, which is super-clutch. Why pass up on learning Wish? Or, alternatively, just go full valour bard with Resilience (Constitution). What are you hoping to get out of Fighter and Ranger 3 that you can't get in Fighter or Ranger 2? Also, what are you hoping to get out of them, anyway, that Resilience can't get you? Remember, taking a 2-level dip takes away a feat, so going the full 20 gives you the feat you'd lose from MC'ing.
#5 mellored Sep 30, 2014 6:38:12	From my guide... Multi-class: Dipping out: What you lose. 20 (Purple): Superior Inseration, as mentioned above, is a pretty meh ability, even if your DM allows inititive cheeze. You gain no new spells either. You gain an extra level 7 slot, which is another cast of force cage. Though if you MC a caster class you still have it. 19: (Blue): Ability bumps cap have diminishing returns (paticluarly at Cha 20), and so do feats since you took the best ones first, but there are a fair number of good choices paticularly for valor who tend to be a bit more feat hungry. Again, no new spells, but another 6th level slot. 18: (blue): Magic secrets also has diminishing returns, but there's still alot of good options to choose from. You be stuck without wish, but you only have 1 slot for forsight anyways. Getting a third level is nice, but 5 slot isn't game changing. 17: (sky blue): You loose your level 9 spell. That's a big hit. Forsight is just awsome.
#6 Rancid_Rogue Sep 30, 2014 7:19:08	It sounds like you're really stuck between two character concepts. Maybe an Eldritch Knight would be the best compromise? I can't fault any Lore Bard starting with a single level of Fighter. For the Valor Bard, eh, the saves and Duelist are very very nice. But I hate being behind the spell and ability bump progressions, and don't know if +2 damage with my longsword or rapier is definitely worth that.
#7 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 30, 2014 9:53:22	In general, if you want to play a medium armored Bard, go variant Human and pick up the Moderate Armor feat. No loss of spellcasting in terms of spells and you get your eventual 18 AC...
(Reply to #7) Kantro	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
(Reply to #6) Kantro	Rancid_Rogue wrote:
(Reply to #4) Kantro	Timborama wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Kantro

Sep 29, 2014 21:29:26

Other discussions on the forum have indicated the Bard can afford 3 levels of dipping without too much loss but what about starting in another class for the Saving Throws, armour or features?

I want to create a Valor flavour Bard and hope to have acces to a 9th level spell (love Foresight). Going Fighter first gives Str & Con saving throws instead of Dex & Cha which will help Concentration but hurt Initiative. One level earns a fighting style (very much want this, probably duellist for flavour) as well as armour and other goodies. The second level Action Surge is nice and the 3rd level could make Champion for the critical hit improvement.

On the other hand, going Ranger means having to go do it first because my character's Stat line would not allow multiclassing in later. The Saving Throws are Str & Dex which is fine for the valorous lifestyle. 2nd level gets the desired fighting style. The real pull for Ranger though is getting the Hunter Horde Breaker feature for extra attacks as the Valor Bard wades in with his rapier & buckler. The problem becomes needing 3 levels, probably early, before going Valor Bard thus delaying the Extra Attack until 9th level. On the plus side is a little bump on spell slots and some useful spells (e.g. Hunter's Mark).

One could make the argument that going Fighter or Ranger first or early is better for the Lore Bard but if I was going Lore Bard at all I would more than dip into Fighter, taking 6 levels for the Ability feat upgrades, maybe a 7th for Remarkable Athlete and the balance into Lore Bard which would in effect be a very Valorous Bard at the expense of some spell levels and features.

So the question is: What of the above options (or others) makes a better fun swashbuckling Valorous flavour Bard and what levels of what should be taken when to achieve that goal. FYI, was thinking of starting with Defensive Duellist if variant Human rather than Half-Elf.

2Chlorobutanal

Sep 29, 2014 22:32:31

Generally multiclassing as a primary spellcaster is harmful to character ability because it sets your character's "power breakpoints" several levels behind a single-classed character.

If you take three Fighter or Ranger levels, your Bard spellcasting is going to be significantly "behind the curve." Additionally, 3 levels prevents the Bard from learning Magical Secrets (level 18), which would allow the bard to poach 9th-level spells from any class. Getting foresight at level 20 is significantly different than getting it at level 17, and the same would be true of every other "benchmark" spell that such a character would receive 3 levels "late."

Also, note that proficiency in Dexterity saves has no impact on initiative at all, as initiative rolls are ability checks, not a saving throws.

At the absolute most, I would say a Bard could get away with 1 or 2 Fighter levels. Even this will be a significant impediment to spellcasting, however. The Valor Bard gets most of the features he or she needs to be a warrior without multiclassing, so I'm not sure that Fighter would even be much of a gain.

If you want a fighter with some Bard spells, multi-classing is more viable- but if you want to be a "full" Bardic spellcaster with 9th level spells, I would avoid multiclassing. You can pick up abilties through feats and the Valor college that will enable you to fight effectively.

If you want to play a 'swashbuckler' bard spellcaster, I would go College of Valor, take a scimitar or rapier as a weapon, and have a high Dex and Cha score. While "Duelist Style" may sound thematic, in practice it's just +2 damage, so nothing that can't be replicated through other features. You could take Defensive Duelist or Martial Adept (learning Disarming Attack or Riposte or Tripping Attack) to reinforce your character concept. Defensive Duelist certainly has some overlap with a Valor Bard's inspiration dice.

FluffyBunbunKittens

Sep 30, 2014 0:37:30

If you want to be a high-Str platemail bard, then starting as Fighter 1 is very useful (as well as for Concentration saves).

Otherwise, for effectiveness, you're better off just sticking to a pure Bard. Because pure spellcaster.

Timborama

Sep 30, 2014 6:18:53

Only reason to go Ranger is that you only sacrifice 1 level in Spell Slots. You're still behind in progression due to how multi-classing works, but a 2-level dip ain't bad.

Only reasons to go Fighter are Heavy Armor and Action Surge. Again, not too bad for a 2-level dip.

I mention 2-level dips due to Magic Secrets at 18, which is super-clutch. Why pass up on learning Wish? Or, alternatively, just go full valour bard with Resilience (Constitution).

What are you hoping to get out of Fighter and Ranger 3 that you can't get in Fighter or Ranger 2? Also, what are you hoping to get out of them, anyway, that Resilience can't get you? Remember, taking a 2-level dip takes away a feat, so going the full 20 gives you the feat you'd lose from MC'ing.

mellored

Sep 30, 2014 6:38:12

From my guide...

Multi-class:

Dipping out: What you lose.

20 (Purple): Superior Inseration, as mentioned above, is a pretty meh ability, even if your DM allows inititive cheeze. You gain no new spells either. You gain an extra level 7 slot, which is another cast of force cage. Though if you MC a caster class you still have it.

19: (Blue): Ability bumps cap have diminishing returns (paticluarly at Cha 20), and so do feats since you took the best ones first, but there are a fair number of good choices paticularly for valor who tend to be a bit more feat hungry. Again, no new spells, but another 6th level slot.

18: (blue): Magic secrets also has diminishing returns, but there's still alot of good options to choose from. You be stuck without wish, but you only have 1 slot for forsight anyways. Getting a third level is nice, but 5 slot isn't game changing.

17: (sky blue): You loose your level 9 spell. That's a big hit. Forsight is just awsome.

Rancid_Rogue

Sep 30, 2014 7:19:08

It sounds like you're really stuck between two character concepts. Maybe an Eldritch Knight would be the best compromise?

I can't fault any Lore Bard starting with a single level of Fighter. For the Valor Bard, eh, the saves and Duelist are very very nice. But I hate being behind the spell and ability bump progressions, and don't know if +2 damage with my longsword or rapier is definitely worth that.

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 30, 2014 9:53:22

In general, if you want to play a medium armored Bard, go variant Human and pick up the Moderate Armor feat. No loss of spellcasting in terms of spells and you get your eventual 18 AC...

(Reply to #7)

Kantro

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

(Reply to #6)

Kantro

Rancid_Rogue wrote:

(Reply to #4)

Kantro

Timborama wrote: