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| #1IxidorRSOct 26, 2014 16:48:27 | I enjoy the one-trick pony show that is Eldritch Blast. It's a lot of fun.
I was considering how best to utilize it.
Here's my current thoughts.
I know I want Fighter for Action Surge, Warlock for Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast and Sorcerer for most of the life of the character due to Meta Magic and Sorcery Points
I'm just unsure what the right order is to pick up all the tools. Should I leave Fighter out? It's a nice once per short rest extra action.
I originally thought starting with Human Fighter, but I can't grab Eldritch Blast at that level due to Spellsniper's requirements. So, then I thought maybe Sorcerer First, then Warlock for two, then Fighter for two, then finish the rest with Sorcerer. That way I've got CON proficiency for keeping Hex up and I'm not penalized for being a Fighter with no ability to attack with what I really want to use going right from first level.
The idea is at a certain level to be able to Cast Eldritch Blast with Twin Spell, cast it again through Action Surge with Twin Spell and then Quickened Spell for Eldritch Blast. Each hit would include 1d10+Cha and a push of 10.'
Then on the following turns, continue using Twinned + Quickened as much as needed.
I'd want Spellsniper for Eldritch Blast and War Caster for advantage on Concentration checks. Not sure what other feats might be considered necessary, though that seems like the main one's to get. I'd be the guy that stays way back or chooses to be in the middle depending on the situation. |
| #2YunruOct 26, 2014 16:53:40 | Sorcerer first. No need to pick up Warlock until a level before Eldritch Blast gets it's second attack. From there it's up to you when to take levels in Fighter. |
| #3BloodscytheOct 26, 2014 19:03:17 | I'm not seeing how Twin Spell helps. Let's say you cast Eldritch Blast at 17th level.. you have 4 beams. You can have all 4 beams target the same creature, which would qualify it for Twin Spell. You use Twin Spell. You may now target a 2nd creature with this same spell. So you now can split the 4 beams between two targets... but you could do that anyway. If however you cast the spell and it only has 1 beam, you can use Twin Spell, and whereas 1 beam could only hit one target before, you can now hit two targets with this same spell/beam. |
| #4ZHDarkstarOct 26, 2014 19:35:45 |
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| #5Knight_MarshalOct 26, 2014 19:55:04 |
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| (Reply to #5)Bloodscythe |
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| (Reply to #4)Bloodscythe |
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| #8slumgumOct 27, 2014 3:14:25 | The twinned spell description says nothing of whether the spell CAN target more than one target, only whether or not it does. If you choose for all 4 beams to hit one target that is all the twinned spell description cares about. It says it allows you target another creature with the same spell, not split half of your spell to that creature. RAW it is 8 blasts.
If you follow your logic through on a spell like Fire Bolt then when twinned it would do 1d10 divided by 2 to two separate targets. |
| #9YunruOct 27, 2014 3:26:40 | It'd be so much easier if they'd just kept the "Target:" line from 4e. Then at least you'd have a point of reference for things related to targetting. |
| #10melloredOct 27, 2014 6:12:41 | Sorcerer 3 (fling firebolt in the early levels) Warlock 2 (at level 5 you get your second bolt) Sorcerer 4 (+2 Cha) Figher 2 (action surge per short rest > 2 sorcerer points per long) Sorcerer + more points then warlock.
Maybe pick up warlock 3 for utility. |
| #11IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 6:21:16 | I did misread Twinned Spell. So I'm really only looking for Quickened Spell from Sorcerer.
In that case, I think I might actually run Warlock more than Sorcerer (but still take at least Sorcerer 3). This gets me Font of Magic and Meta Magic. I can then use my Warlock slots to convert to Sorcery points and regain them on short rests (unless anyone's seen a reason that's not feasible). That also lets me pick up some other invocations which can be nice to have and a Pact of the Chain Imp familiar for granting advantage using the Help action. |
| #12melloredOct 27, 2014 6:25:58 |
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| #13IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 6:30:48 |
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| #14Corran21Oct 27, 2014 9:37:06 | I noted your hesitation over throwing 2 fighter levels in the mix, or not. If you decide that throwing 2 fighter levels in the build is worth it, then this is how I, personally, would go about building this EB machine:
Definitely you want Con save proficiency, so one thing is certain. That you don't want to start as a warlock. In fact, as Yunru suggested, levels 4 and 5 should be your 2 warlock levels, lettiing you decide later if you want a third level in warlock instead of one extra sorcerer level (I prefer the sorcerer level but I will expand on this later). But how to start? As a fighter, or as a sorcerer?
I would start as a fighter. Just to get heavy armor and shield proficiency. The best thing about a build involving fighter, sorcerer and warlock, is NOT your spectacular nova, and NOT your very good dpr. Instead, it is the versatility of this build. With only one feat (crossbow expert), and starting as a fighter, you can be an exceptional tank, while at the same time deal all the sweet damage you intended for.
The sorcerer has in his spell list, some very decent defensive spells, that can do wonders when working with the high AC you would have by just starting as a fighter. Consider how much better blur works with a high AC, or how you could spam shield on top of an AC of 21, to reach 26 AC for one round. Or mirror image (I've not really looked for any defensive spells past 3rd spell level, but you get the idea). The point is, that this way, your HP, and more importantly your concentration spells, are heavily protected.
So now, by starting as a fighter, you are not only a high damage dealer, but also more efficient at it (concentration spells are better protected), and a decent tank as well (better tank than a normal fighter would be anyways). Plus, you can spam EB all the time, even if your enemies are right in your face (crossbow expert).
The 4 extra hp (or 3 if you start dragon sorcerer) at 1st level is just the cherry on top.
Also, consider how badass it would be to blast your opponents with EB from point blank range, while clad on heavy armor (full plate as soon as you can afford it). You are as good as a one-man-party, as one can be. You tank very well, deal damage per round even better, and go nova like a boss.
(Fluff tip: describe your EB as a force weapon that materializes in your hand, rather than a beam, for style points. I personally describe it as a flail when targeting up to 10ft, or as a javelin for longer distances, but that's just how I like it. Make it a mace and push enemies with repelling blast, up to 40ft on a normal round, or up to 120ft on nova time, and you have Sauron in the first battle scene of the fellowship.)
Two ways for a 20-level build: A. Fighter2/ Warlock2/ Sorcerer 16 B. Fighter2/ Warlock3/ Sorcerer 15
Basicaly, it comes down to if you prefer one more feat/bump and an extra sorcery point and two 1st level spell slots recharged after a short rest, or if you prefer one additional known spell and two second level spell slots recharged after a short rest. The spell slots rechrged for 1st levels would obviously be shield, and the spell slots recharged for 2nd level spells would obviously be for scorching ray. Both these spells would be spammed a lot, so it is how you choose to taylor your build, more defensive or more attacking. Personally I prefer choice A, even if I get extra slots for shield and not scorching ray.
Level progression should be imo as follows: Fighter 1 (pick defense fighting style - or protection if you really need to help an ally often, but do note that it burns your reaction and you need it to cast shield often. Also make sure to grab a shiled for your off hand, and wear the best heavy armor you can get your hands on).
Then I would take a level of sorcerer, followed by another level of fighter, and then my 2 levels of warlock, resulting in a fighter2/sorcerer1/warlock2 at 5th character level who has 2 attacks with EB each dealing d10+3 (+d6 if hexed), and you can go nova with action surge on a single hexed target for 4d10+4d6+12 force damage.
From level 5 onwards, it's sorcerer, and at level 7 you have matamagic, and with quickened you can increase your nova to 6d10+6d6+18 with EB. You also get 2nd level spells, where you can find a lot of goodies. Darkness, blur, mirror image, scorching ray, etc...
Choose draconic origin (fire) to get the most of your scorching ray nova rounds. From warlock's invocations, agonizing blast is a must, and for the second invocation I prefer devil's sight (to work with a darkness spell on when necessary).
Choose variant human to get crossbow expert at 1st level, although you will probably start profit from this feat mostly after 4th-5th level, when EB takes over for the most part. Youi get your second feat at character level 8, better use it to bump charisma to 18.
Starting stats (with variant human): STR13, DEX10, CON16, INT8, WIS10, CHA16 (or STR10, DEX13, CON16, INT8, WIS10, CHA16, or even STR8, DEX14,CON16, INT8, WIS10, CHA16). Even with a strength score of 13, you will end up having some encumberance problems, but since you use EB, reduced speed by 10ft is not going to be a problem. Unless you are being chased by something you cannot kill....
Hope this helps...
Edit: Under no circumastances do not take the warcaster feat, from level 2 onwards you dont even need a weapon.... You just have a shield and an empthy hand with which you cast your spells. Advantage for concentration saves is nice, but you already have con save proficiency, a high armor class, good defensive spells to bolster your AC or avoid being hit, and if all else fails, a shield spell to probably negate a hit. And when you do get to roll for concentration, you plus is very good. So imo advantage on your already very well protected con saves is not worth giving up a cha boost.
Edit2: Besides EB, 3 more of your cantrips should be the following: shocking grasp (for OA), and poison spray and acid splash (for when you have disadvantage on attack rolls for being frightened). You wisdom saves are not especially good, so you need these 2 cantrips that force the enemy roll a save instead of you attacking. Poison spray deals better damage, but acid splash has better range (remember you cannot move closer to a target of which you are frightened, so you need all the range you can get). Also, since poison resistance is common, having a second non-attack roll cantrip that deals different damage type is useful. So take both of these. Bottom line, EB, poison spray, acid splash and shocking grasp are mandatory.
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| #15YunruOct 27, 2014 9:32:28 | Alternatively if you've a DM that lets you roll each turn be a Wild Magic Sorcerer and spam Scorching Rays in melee and (hopefully) drop a Fireball on yourself (High Dex + Shield Master recommended). Although it's more hit and miss (with both DM and what you roll). |
| #16melloredOct 27, 2014 9:35:19 |
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| #17YunruOct 27, 2014 9:45:00 | Nah, Hex is awesome when you're doing up to 12 attacks in a turn. |
| #18Corran21Oct 27, 2014 9:47:11 |
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| #19IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 9:54:21 |
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| #20melloredOct 27, 2014 10:10:04 |
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| #21melloredOct 27, 2014 10:09:22 |
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| #22Corran21Oct 27, 2014 10:19:57 |
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| #23YunruOct 27, 2014 10:31:01 | Assuming you've already cast Hex (although not against one of these foes): Round 1: Move Hex to new target. Double Scorching Ray. Round 2: Double Eldritch Blast. Round 3+: Repeat. |
| #24Corran21Oct 27, 2014 10:34:22 |
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| (Reply to #8)Bloodscythe |
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| #26melloredOct 27, 2014 10:44:59 |
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| #27Corran21Oct 27, 2014 10:45:46 |
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| #28IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 10:47:33 | Thinking about this some more...
If I'm only looking at single target damage, wouldn't I be better off just sticking to Dragon Sorcerer with Fire Bolt and focusing on that? This allows Twinned Spell to work as well, without question.
I'd lose Hex, but could pick it up easy enough. Also, no Repelling Blast, which is for me incredibly fun, so I don't really want to lose it. I guess I'd have both, so if I really wanted to twin twice with Action Surge, I could, and then still cast EB on a quickened if I need to clear minions (assuming I still grab it, of course).
So many options, here. |
| #29Corran21Oct 27, 2014 10:48:42 |
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| #30Corran21Oct 27, 2014 10:55:40 |
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| #31TherosOct 27, 2014 11:19:23 | Honestly I’d just go pure sorcerer and keep your spell progression. I’ve got a guy in one of my games that played a warlock for about 5 sessions. He retired the character because he said Eldritch Blast was too boring. I’m inclined to agree. It’s a good spell but it gets old quick. Warlock was strictly no thrills. |
| #32YunruOct 27, 2014 11:20:26 | If you have to move Hex just use Scorching Ray that turn. |
| (Reply to #31)Yunru |
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| #34melloredOct 27, 2014 11:26:42 |
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| #35melloredOct 27, 2014 11:31:13 | Anyways, there's no reason why you couldn't have both hex and quicken. |
| #36TherosOct 27, 2014 11:39:25 |
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| #37YunruOct 27, 2014 11:44:00 | Could be the campaign. As a Charisma primary class you're not short on social options, even if you're not trained in them. That of course depends on social encounters beinf present. |
| #38melloredOct 27, 2014 11:53:01 |
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| (Reply to #38)Bloodscythe |
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| #40slumgumOct 27, 2014 13:06:31 |
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| #41IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 13:01:30 | I think I will actually just start as Warlock, and move to Sorcerer, grabbing Fighter somewhere later. Even just two Eldritch Blasts a turn is really quite good. Until I get Quickened Spell, I'll use Hex.
Maybe Warlock 6 / Sorcerer 12 / Fighter 2 Or Warlock 6 / Fighter 2 / Sorcerer 12
I wouldn't have to grab Spellsniper to start with EB this way. My armor is a little low, but that's okay (can start with AC 15 and reach 18 if DEX gets boosted, 19 with Mage Armor or Dragon Sorcerer.
Action Surge and Second Wind are nice, but are they enough for me to care about the Fighter dip? One turn of an extra attack... is it good enough?
I'm starting to lean towards Fighter not being only slightly useful.
If I did start Fighter, I could run with Dex at 16 so I'm not completely useless for two levels, but then I'm delaying my Quickened Spell even more.
Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18 could even be the answer. While I won't get the Devil's Sight this way, I can still get Darkvision at level 7 and Light at level 1/3 to help with that issue. Maybe not as Feat dependent, so I could start as Half-Elf instead? |
| #42slumgumOct 27, 2014 13:04:17 |
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| (Reply to #40)Bloodscythe |
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| #44YunruOct 27, 2014 13:07:02 | Sorcerer or Fighter first: You want that Con save. |
| #45IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 13:07:33 | I think it's best to ignore Twinned Spell with Eldritch Blast until we have a FAQ... if that fabled thing will ever exist. Or just talk to your DM about it. |
| (Reply to #42)Bloodscythe |
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| #47slumgumOct 27, 2014 13:25:53 | You're adding a LOT of unwritten rules when you suggest that Twinned Spell can split your 4 beams. The most logical conclusion is that all 4 beams hit both targets. |
| #48Corran21Oct 27, 2014 13:41:24 |
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| #49Corran21Oct 27, 2014 13:40:18 |
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| #50IxidorRSOct 27, 2014 13:41:49 |
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| #51Corran21Oct 27, 2014 13:53:15 | Next step: Choose your spells. Any thoughts on this one? (assuming Warlock2/Sorcerer18) |
| #52YunruOct 27, 2014 14:08:30 | Scorching Ray is a must. It's the Spell Slot version of Eldritch Blast. |
| #53TherosOct 27, 2014 14:14:14 |
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| #54ChakravantOct 27, 2014 16:05:14 | As some have begun to show, this build really does come down to Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18. Start with Warlock for EB and Hex. Switch to Sorcerer for SR, Twin Spell and Quicken Spell. Be sure to align with the element of fire (and use the appropriate feat) for added SR damage. Also bear in mind this build is awful. It does great DPR, but you are literally doing your best to only cast three spells (Hex, EB, and SR). Over and over again. You have no utility. All you can do is make the world burn. |
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| #56Corran21Oct 27, 2014 17:00:13 |
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| #57IxidorRSOct 29, 2014 13:23:04 | Is Rebuke worth it instead for the reactions + cha from sorcerer? |
| #58melloredOct 29, 2014 13:29:04 |
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| #59Corran21Oct 29, 2014 15:59:03 |
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| #60grendel111111Oct 29, 2014 21:36:26 | If you twin a spell that you also use empowered on do you: 1) reroll a number of dice, up to your CHA mod, on one of the spells declared before casting? 2) reroll a number of dice, up to your CHA mod, on one of the spells decided after casting? 3) reroll a number of dice, up to your CHA mod, on either of the spells (so on a 2d10 firebolt and a 2d10 firebolt, you could reroll all 4 dice)? |
| (Reply to #60)Yunru |
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| (Reply to #61)grendel111111 |
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| #63YunruOct 30, 2014 4:03:47 | There's not "dice against either target". There is one damage roll that applies to both targets. |
| (Reply to #63)Bloodscythe |
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| #65YunruOct 30, 2014 5:08:46 | You roll an attack roll for each target and a single damage roll for the damage. Empowered Spell only effects the damage roll. |
| #66melloredOct 30, 2014 5:51:15 |
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| #67Corran21Oct 30, 2014 7:53:09 |
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